Metro vs Non Metro

[Floridaatlantic1]

If the plan was so great why was the AD vote 8-7. Hardly a ringing endorsement. The plan is was obviously created by suburbs people without any regard to metro schools. Good luck getting it passed with out a endorsement by the executive director. Let me give you a preview of what the meeting will be.  A bunch of suburb coaches and ADs whine on zoom and then the proposal fails. Haha 

[Ray Icaza]

24 minutes ago, Floridaatlantic1 said:

If the plan was so great why was the AD vote 8-7. Hardly a ringing endorsement. The plan is was obviously created by suburbs people without any regard to metro schools. Good luck getting it passed with out a endorsement by the executive director. Let me give you a preview of what the meeting will be.  A bunch of suburb coaches and ADs whine on zoom and then the proposal fails. Haha 

Your analysis seems to be correct with who is pushing this and whether it will help with competitive balance. You are overlooking why the Suburbs are pushing this, although the competitive balance won't get resolved until something can be done about "School Choice".   Suburbs rightfully point out that from 1990-2000 the Metro counties won only 40% of the state championships.  As recruiting/transfers started creeping into the Metro schools, primarily south FL from 2001-2010 they started winning about 60% of championships.  Fast forward to the ruling in 2011 in this past decade they are now winning 89% of all state title games.  These are relevant facts in looking for a solution, although I am not endorsing what they have come up with.  Again, as several much more knowledgeable participants on this forum than I have pointed out the fix lies with the state legislature and not the FHSAA.

[Floridaatlantic1]

I understand the reasons why suburban schools want a change to win some championships. However. The same teams will win suburban championship every year as well . Plus. They act like every metro school gets tons of transfers every year and it only true at the powerhouse metro schools.  My biggest complaint of proposal is it crams all metro into four divisions which means 6a schools are playing with 8a schools in same district with 2000 more students than our 6a school. Real fair. Plus. State championships are supposed to be hard to win.  The proposal does nothing to stop recruiter of private monsters schools who win most of state rings anyway. 

[Ray Icaza]

10 minutes ago, Floridaatlantic1 said:

I understand the reasons why suburban schools want a change to win some championships. However. The same teams will win suburban championship every year as well . Plus. They act like every metro school gets tons of transfers every year and it only true at the powerhouse metro schools.  My biggest complaint of proposal is it crams all metro into four divisions which means 6a schools are playing with 8a schools in same district with 2000 more students than our 6a school. Real fair. Plus. State championships are supposed to be hard to win.  The proposal does nothing to stop recruiter of private monsters schools who win most of state rings anyway. 

No one is saying every Metro school gets tons of transfers, but the haves in that area that get them have a distinct advantage over the haves in Suburban areas.  Osceola county has a population of under 400,000 but has a bigger geographical footprint than say Broward; they have a population of 2 million, 5 times our size. So they obviously have a numbers advantage in that geographical region which translates to a quality advantage as well.  We may have 3 4* in our entire region and they will have a couple of 5* plus another 15 4* which yes the privates usually get.  Enrollment can be a tricky thing as we hover around 2500-2600 anually and as an 8A play other 8A schools with over 4000 kids.  It is what it is and I already said this isn't a good fix, just that the fix can't be made by the FHSAA.

[Floridaatlantic1]

How many teams really have a shot at a state championship. Our 6a school is never going to win one or even sniff the regional final, but at least we are in a district that is close to our enrollment and we have a shot every four years or so of winning a district title and the go to the playoffs and get crushed by a private or metro recruiter school. The hypothetical district in one of the papers puts us in with annual state finalist and two other schools that are amazing. We will lose every district game by double digits. How many suburban teams can even win the suburb title  8-10   So why screw over many teams for such a few to win a fake state title. Until the state either stops recruiting or put all super private  and recruiting teams in same division  than just keep it the same.  Which is what will happen in a week. No reason to fight about something not happening anyway. 

 

[Ray Icaza]

7 minutes ago, Floridaatlantic1 said:

How many teams really have a shot at a state championship. Our 6a school is never going to win one or even sniff the regional final, but at least we are in a district that is close to our enrollment and we have a shot every four years or so of winning a district title and the go to the playoffs and get crushed by a private or metro recruiter school. The hypothetical district in one of the papers puts us in with annual state finalist and two other schools that are amazing. We will lose every district game by double digits. How many suburban teams can even win the suburb title  8-10   So why screw over many teams for such a few to win a fake state title. Until the state either stops recruiting or put all super private  and recruiting teams in same division  than just keep it the same.  Which is what will happen in a week. No reason to fight about something not happening anyway. 

 

Enrollment is not the factor you seem to think, but the privates that get the top players is.  Our school is probably 60%+ Puerto Rican now and that has been the driver of size yet very few of them are football players.  Kissimmee has the second largest PR population in the entire nation only trailing New York City. When you factor that in we are consistently playing schools much larger.  In the 60s when I attended we were in the Ridge Conference playing smaller schools in Polk county before moving us to the Orange Belt conference playing larger Metro schools.  In our perspective, those larger schools weren't as good or as tough as small schools like Ft. Meade, Frostproof, Mulberry, Avon Park, Haines City, etc..   Madison County is another good example; my guess is they would beat the vast majority of 6A, 7A and 8A schools in our state and there are other excellent small schools like them.  I said I am not advocating for the change, so who is fighting.  If it remains the same, we will continue trying to produce good football teams and not lose sleep over it. 

[Floridaatlantic1]

Your right enrollment can be deceiving but the team who we will be playing are way bigger like 2000 students and they are from more athletic so it will matter to us. It will be a massacre when we are forced to play these teams.   I am sure there is a better idea than this split. How about have privates play in own divisions. That will free up two state championships every year 

[Floridaatlantic1]

Another idea would be to split state between north and south.  Most of state champions come from south anyway. 

[Ray Icaza]

4 minutes ago, Floridaatlantic1 said:

Your right enrollment can be deceiving but the team who we will be playing are way bigger like 2000 students and they are from more athletic so it will matter to us. It will be a massacre when we are forced to play these teams.   I am sure there is a better idea than this split. How about have privates play in own divisions. That will free up two state championships every year 

Since I have been on this forum, which hasn't been very long I have consistently advocated for the Privates to have their own championships and the publics their own.  The key being for the publics to slow down transfers by making them wait a year for sports unless the "FAMILY" moves into the zoned district;  not just a player getting some temporary address plus re-instituting big fines for violators.   That can only be done by the Florida Legislature reversing the "School Choice" policy and allowing the FHSAA to impose said fines.  Till that happens, there is no fix and a handful of schools will continue to dominate.

[Jesse]

3 hours ago, Ray Icaza said:

Enrollment is not the factor you seem to think, but the privates that get the top players is.  Our school is probably 60%+ Puerto Rican now and that has been the driver of size yet very few of them are football players.  Kissimmee has the second largest PR population in the entire nation only trailing New York City. When you factor that in we are consistently playing schools much larger.  In the 60s when I attended we were in the Ridge Conference playing smaller schools in Polk county before moving us to the Orange Belt conference playing larger Metro schools.  In our perspective, those larger schools weren't as good or as tough as small schools like Ft. Meade, Frostproof, Mulberry, Avon Park, Haines City, etc..   Madison County is another good example; my guess is they would beat the vast majority of 6A, 7A and 8A schools in our state and there are other excellent small schools like them.  I said I am not advocating for the change, so who is fighting.  If it remains the same, we will continue trying to produce good football teams and not lose sleep over it. 

Shout out to madison let's goo.  They can hang with anyone.  Population 2,000 people only 

[Nulli Secundus]

4 hours ago, Ray Icaza said:

Enrollment is not the factor you seem to think, but the privates that get the top players is.  Our school is probably 60%+ Puerto Rican now and that has been the driver of size yet very few of them are football players.  Kissimmee has the second largest PR population in the entire nation only trailing New York City. When you factor that in we are consistently playing schools much larger.  In the 60s when I attended we were in the Ridge Conference playing smaller schools in Polk county before moving us to the Orange Belt conference playing larger Metro schools.  In our perspective, those larger schools weren't as good or as tough as small schools like Ft. Meade, Frostproof, Mulberry, Avon Park, Haines City, etc..   Madison County is another good example; my guess is they would beat the vast majority of 6A, 7A and 8A schools in our state and there are other excellent small schools like them.  I said I am not advocating for the change, so who is fighting.  If it remains the same, we will continue trying to produce good football teams and not lose sleep over it. 

Why Ray, why?  LOL

[Ray Icaza]

28 minutes ago, Nulli Secundus said:

Why Ray, why?  LOL

MARKETING THE MOUSE 

[Ray Icaza]

17 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:

MARKETING THE MOUSE 

Think maybe I missed your point.  Would have been better to use Pahokee or Glades Central repping the small schools??

[Nulli Secundus]

2 hours ago, Ray Icaza said:

Think maybe I missed your point.  Would have been better to use Pahokee or Glades Central repping the small schools??

Your school selection was fine.  That was more so for how hard Jesse reps Madison and how that statement would draw him out, which it did, LOL.

[Jesse]

We are who we are – we’ll fight you tooth and nail, we’ll never gonna give up, and blountstown is the best rural football team in this state,” Johnson said. 

[Proseteye]

On 2/20/2022 at 3:48 PM, Ray Icaza said:

Since I have been on this forum, which hasn't been very long I have consistently advocated for the Privates to have their own championships and the publics their own.  The key being for the publics to slow down transfers by making them wait a year for sports unless the "FAMILY" moves into the zoned district;  not just a player getting some temporary address plus re-instituting big fines for violators.   That can only be done by the Florida Legislature reversing the "School Choice" policy and allowing the FHSAA to impose said fines.  Till that happens, there is no fix and a handful of schools will continue to dominate.

100% correct, Ray. However, even before the unbridled school choice nonsense, under the zoned districts policy players were moving into their Uncle Festers house (wink wink) in that district. None of the school administrators seemed to care enough to police it in accordance with the FHSAA rules and regulations. And that is the reality of it all. If the schools or some other entity are not going to verify legitimate residence then in order to stop recruiting altogether the policy would have to be players sitting out the year for any and all transfers regardless or at the least players sitting out a certain amount of games before being allowed to play. We all know that none of this is ever going to happen and so recruiting will continue unabated, nothing will ever change, and will just continue to get worse. 

[FBGUY1989]

I've always thought in order to get to the top you have to beat the best of the best but with these new classifications I'm not liking them at all. I guess it's because I'm from Miami and you have all of them in the same spot .

Miami Edison with 700 students and Booker T. Washington with 1,000 students are in the same class now playing with Miami Norland with 1700 students. Not to mention you have Miami Northwestern and Miami Central. Now if I'm correct only one school can make it to states and it's just not fair.

[DisabledAccount]

 

"OnLy PrIvAtEs ReCrUiT" 

 

Yet Dillard and Miami Northwestern have been the transfer kings of SFL this off-season 

 

 

 

 

 

[Proseteye]

57 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

 

"OnLy PrIvAtEs ReCrUiT" 

 

Yet Dillard and Miami Northwestern have been the transfer kings of SFL this off-season 

 

 

 

 

 

At least IMG admits that their transfers are recruited. As such, they don't have mandatory district play and are not able to play in the playoffs and championship games. Not so much for the other fabricated all star teams out there. 

[VeniceIndianFan]

28 minutes ago, Proseteye said:

At least IMG admits that their transfers are recruited. As such, they don't have mandatory district play and are not able to play in the playoffs and championship games. Not so much for the other fabricated all star teams out there. 

Bradenton Manatee was a powerhouse before IMG started playing football in 2013. I wonder why. 

[Perspective]

23 minutes ago, Proseteye said:

At least IMG admits that their transfers are recruited. As such, they don't have mandatory district play and are not able to play in the playoffs and championship games. Not so much for the other fabricated all star teams out there. 

But do they?  Do they admit they recruit?   Anyone who follows high school football knows that they do recruit, but do they admit it?  

I ask because I think you are mistaken in your premise.   You are correct that IMG does not play in a district nor are they able to participate in the playoffs.   But until someone can show me otherwise, I continue to be of the opinion that all FHSAA members (even the ones who are "independent" or, as they like to be called on MaxPreps, "freelance") are supposed/required to follow FHSAA rules and guidelines -- including the rules that prohibit recruiting. 

Why does this even matter for IMG at this point?  Arguably, it doesn't.  It mattered a great deal when they were first getting started.  But even now it matters somewhat.  Many states outside of Florida have rules that mandate that an out-of-state opponent must be part of a sanctioned organization.   So, it benefits IMG to be part of the FHSAA even though they blatantly ignore the rules against recruiting.   But by being a member, they don't get shut out of potential out-of-state games.  

It really doesn't bother me so much that IMG recruits.   Frankly, it's an integral part of their business model (oh, and yes they are very much a for-profit business) and they make no pretenses about their stated purpose.    I'm more bothered by the FHSAA, who turns a blind eye to what they know is happening, and by coaches in the state that take an 'honor among thieves' approach and don't say anything when one of their star players gets poached.  

So, getting back to your statement, I'd love to see something in writing from an IMG coach (on Twitter, on their website, etc.) publicly acknowledging that they openly recruit. 

[Perspective]

1 hour ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

"OnLy PrIvAtEs ReCrUiT" 

 

Yet Dillard and Miami Northwestern have been the transfer kings of SFL this off-season 

ColumbiaHighFan,

I want to offer you a little challenge.   How do you know that schools like Dillard and Northwestern are recruiting?  

I agree with you that it certainly appears that certain schools are getting more than their fair share of transfers.  But, transferring does not necessarily mean recruiting.  Although it could mean that.  

Some schools built up programs and/or prospered at just the right time (relative to the school choice mandates).    I call some of these schools "Field of Dream" schools.   Remember the tagline:  if you build it, they will come?   If you build a successful program, kids naturally want to be a part of it.   Success begets success.   Kids want to play for winning programs/coaches. 

By the same token, programs that are struggling and that want to get to the next level undoubtedly cross over the line and actively recruit (through assistants, 7 on 7, all-star teams, player-to-player, etc.). 

My point is, when you see that a kid like the one mentioned in the tweet you posted has transferred from BTW to NW, how do you know that he was recruited versus the kid just decided he wanted to play with a different/better team and just transferred?  Are you getting insight from inside sources?  Or is it just a gut feeling?

[DisabledAccount]

14 minutes ago, Perspective said:

ColumbiaHighFan,

I want to offer you a little challenge.   How do you know that schools like Dillard and Northwestern are recruiting?  

I agree with you that it certainly appears that certain schools are getting more than their fair share of transfers.  But, transferring does not necessarily mean recruiting.  Although it could mean that.  

Some schools built up programs and/or prospered at just the right time (relative to the school choice mandates).    I call some of these schools "Field of Dream" schools.   Remember the tagline:  if you build it, they will come?   If you build a successful program, kids naturally want to be a part of it.   Success begets success.   Kids want to play for winning programs/coaches. 

By the same token, programs that are struggling and that want to get to the next level undoubtedly cross over the line and actively recruit (through assistants, 7 on 7, all-star teams, player-to-player, etc.). 

My point is, when you see that a kid like the one mentioned in the tweet you posted has transferred from BTW to NW, how do you know that he was recruited versus the kid just decided he wanted to play with a different/better team and just transferred?  Are you getting insight from inside sources?  Or is it just a gut feeling?

I could apply the same logic to the people on here Insinuating that the private schools recruit

[Proseteye]

11 minutes ago, Perspective said:

But do they?  Do they admit they recruit?   Anyone who follows high school football knows that they do recruit, but do they admit it?  

I ask because I think you are mistaken in your premise.   You are correct that IMG does not play in a district nor are they able to participate in the playoffs.   But until someone can show me otherwise, I continue to be of the opinion that all FHSAA members (even the ones who are "independent" or, as they like to be called on MaxPreps, "freelance") are supposed/required to follow FHSAA rules and guidelines -- including the rules that prohibit recruiting. 

Why does this even matter for IMG at this point?  Arguably, it doesn't.  It mattered a great deal when they were first getting started.  But even now it matters somewhat.  Many states outside of Florida have rules that mandate that an out-of-state opponent must be part of a sanctioned organization.   So, it benefits IMG to be part of the FHSAA even though they blatantly ignore the rules against recruiting.   But by being a member, they don't get shut out of potential out-of-state games.  

It really doesn't bother me so much that IMG recruits.   Frankly, it's an integral part of their business model (oh, and yes they are very much a for-profit business) and they make no pretenses about their stated purpose.    I'm more bothered by the FHSAA, who turns a blind eye to what they know is happening, and by coaches in the state that take an 'honor among thieves' approach and don't say anything when one of their star players gets poached.  

So, getting back to your statement, I'd love to see something in writing from an IMG coach (on Twitter, on their website, etc.) publicly acknowledging that they openly recruit. 

All private schools recruit as they are all businesses and to stay in business they have to fill their positions with paying students. Advertising and seeking out paying students is recruiting, whether it is for an academic student only or a student that plays a sport as well. A private school, by virtue of their unique situation, needs to accept as many qualified students as possible no mater where they live or they cannot make a profit nor survive. That being said, private schools are at a disadvantage as many have pretty strict entry qualifications, moral and ethical codes, and most families cannot afford the tuition and/or other requisites. Thus they are limited in recruiting top players that may not meet these requirements.  IMG is a sports training facility that happens to be a high school. Apparently they worked out an agreement with the FHSAA so that they could play under the FHSAA umbrella as long  as no Florida team was forced to play them. At least that seems plausible.

[DisabledAccount]

48 minutes ago, VeniceIndiansFootball said:

Bradenton Manatee was a powerhouse before IMG started playing football in 2013. I wonder why. 

They fell off when they pushed Killian out as coach