Jump to content
  • Announcements

    • Joshua Wilson

      Rules of the Forums   09/02/2017

      Please be sure to read the rules of the forums. This is only to help all of us have a good time and we want to keep this board as fun as possible. 
    • SportsNut25

      Talking Other Sports   11/08/2017

      For those interested in talking about other sports, you can talk about them here. 
Sign in to follow this  
BrowardHandicapper

Could drastic changes be coming to FHSAA Playoffs in 2017

Recommended Posts


Josh, I have read all of these responses and the reason the FHSAA is looking at such drastic changes is because they have screwed it up to this point. They have expanded this thing to 8 classes over time for what gain?? Money!!!!!!!! In 2011 they reclassified everything and made some major changes, so you're telling me they did such a good job we need to completely overhaul it 5-6 years later??? Cmon now, really?? Right now they have classes with 28 teams in it, yet the FHSAA said when they were fighting against the Rural league that a class with less than 32 would never be. What happened??? I'm ok with the Georgia system with regions and take the top 4 while having guaranteed games. Bottom line the FHSAA is going to look out for the FHSAA, period. The next time they make a decision to benefit schools or fans over themselves will be the first time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Josh, I have read all of these responses and the reason the FHSAA is looking at such drastic changes is because they have screwed it up to this point. They have expanded this thing to 8 classes over time for what gain?? Money!!!!!!!! In 2011 they reclassified everything and made some major changes, so you're telling me they did such a good job we need to completely overhaul it 5-6 years later??? Cmon now, really?? Right now they have classes with 28 teams in it, yet the FHSAA said when they were fighting against the Rural league that a class with less than 32 would never be. What happened??? I'm ok with the Georgia system with regions and take the top 4 while having guaranteed games. Bottom line the FHSAA is going to look out for the FHSAA, period. The next time they make a decision to benefit schools or fans over themselves will be the first time.

 

Who said the FHSAA fought against the rural league? And who said I thought they did a good job back in 2011? Yeah the number of teams in a class is suppose to not go below 32, and you can thank independent teams for helping cause that. The solution here is that if teams don't want to play a powerhouse they don't have to, but in all get a fair shake of trying compete for a playoff spot. Yeah you may not avoid some of those powerhouse teams in the playoffs, but that is a different story. I have been doing a lot of studying on this and there is a lot of impact positively that can be made if things are done correctly. 

 

The biggest thing though everyone is missing is that this is set in stone. Nothing is set in stone yet. Am i for something different. Yes I am. Do we have too many classes? In the current setup, I say yes, but could this new setup bring teams back? I think so and it would even the numbers out to where it allowed 8 classes to happen in the first place over a decade ago. FHSAA loses money on Class 2A games, so not sure how every class helps them make money. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You obviously have no idea how they collect revenue if you believe they lose money on 2A. I realize that you haven't been covering high school football for a long time but the Rural league has been talked about for over a decade. And yes the FHSAA was against it and did alot to keep it from happening. Credit to them for finally allowing it to take place. You don't have to blame the teams going independent for classes having under 32, blame the FHSAA. Why create a class with schools that may drop football. If you allow them to participate in the FHSAA Playoffs in other sports don't allow them to go independent without forfeiting the playoffs for other sports. I can assure you that would stop some of the going independent over night. Now onto the 2A losing money, do you know how many representatives the FHSAA has at playoff games????? Let me help you out, ZERO!!! It costs them a whopping $0.00 out of their pocket to put on a playoff game. Now let's say that the schools draw 1000 people @ $8 a head. That's 8k for the schools to split, oh wait!!! The FHSAA has to get their 25% off the top before a single referee is paid or anything else. So the FHSAA get $2k, then the hosting school pays it's expenses, referees, ambulance, cops, ect, ect. Then the schools split the remainder 60/40. So again please explain how they lose money.

As for all of the independents the best thing they could do is create a league for all the small privates like in Georgia. The GISA does their own thing and everybody is happy. They are basically trying to do it on their own now with the Sunshine State conference, why doesn't the FHSAA embrace it and try to grow it is beyond me. Eliminate 2A and we are down ti 7 real classes and the sunshine state league.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You obviously have no idea how they collect revenue if you believe they lose money on 2A. I realize that you haven't been covering high school football for a long time but the Rural league has been talked about for over a decade. And yes the FHSAA was against it and did alot to keep it from happening. Credit to them for finally allowing it to take place. You don't have to blame the teams going independent for classes having under 32, blame the FHSAA. Why create a class with schools that may drop football. If you allow them to participate in the FHSAA Playoffs in other sports don't allow them to go independent without forfeiting the playoffs for other sports. I can assure you that would stop some of the going independent over night. Now onto the 2A losing money, do you know how many representatives the FHSAA has at playoff games????? Let me help you out, ZERO!!! It costs them a whopping $0.00 out of their pocket to put on a playoff game. Now let's say that the schools draw 1000 people @ $8 a head. That's 8k for the schools to split, oh wait!!! The FHSAA has to get their 25% off the top before a single referee is paid or anything else. So the FHSAA get $2k, then the hosting school pays it's expenses, referees, ambulance, cops, ect, ect. Then the schools split the remainder 60/40. So again please explain how they lose money.

As for all of the independents the best thing they could do is create a league for all the small privates like in Georgia. The GISA does their own thing and everybody is happy. They are basically trying to do it on their own now with the Sunshine State conference, why doesn't the FHSAA embrace it and try to grow it is beyond me. Eliminate 2A and we are down ti 7 real classes and the sunshine state league.

 

I was referring to the 2A state championship game itself. I was not clear on that. I get how they collect money and every state collects money for running the playoffs. They don't have to offer a playoff. Remember if you find any old articles there were TONS of folks dead against ever having a playoff system here for Football. Have we advanced? Yes. Is the system perfect? Not by any means. Can the FHSAA restructure, sure, but that is going to have to be decided upon by the representative assembly to bring that up and pass it. If the member schools are not speaking up then how can the FHSAA actually fix something? 

 

So should a separate independent league exist for these smaller schools? Yes, but they should be willing to handle run any of those sports these schools compete in now, not just a select few which has been a big beef right now with the SSAC because from indications I have seen they only want to run the few select sports they run now (football, basketball and apparently beach volleyball that is coming) and doesn't appear to have interest with handling sports like baseball or softball at this time. I could be wrong, but that is the take from people have spoken to or on stories I have read. 

 

However, I am seeing if we keep the district format the same schools are going to continue to dominate and there won't be any options other than independent for other schools. I like to see the schools have some kind of choice here to choose which way they want to go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They are choosing, to be independent. Probably more than half of those schools have no business playing varsity football anyway. Again how did it get to the point of people not wanting to play the same great teams every year?? The FHSAA has turned a blind eye to the NFC, University Christian and Trinity Christian's for all these years. If they would have ever addressed that issue so many years ago they may not have these issues today.

Sure Josh, they don't have to offer a playoff, what would be the point of being a member of the FHSAA then? That is the silliest point I have ever heard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They are choosing, to be independent. Probably more than half of those schools have no business playing varsity football anyway. Again how did it get to the point of people not wanting to play the same great teams every year?? The FHSAA has turned a blind eye to the NFC, University Christian and Trinity Christian's for all these years. If they would have ever addressed that issue so many years ago they may not have these issues today.

Sure Josh, they don't have to offer a playoff, what would be the point of being a member of the FHSAA then? That is the silliest point I have ever heard.

 

It is not the silliest point. I am just saying they don't have to do half of what they do, but my question here to you is how do you expect them to cover the cost of anything if they didn't collect something? How is that suppose to work? Do it for free? Let's be realistic, you know they can't do it for free, especially when costs have to be covered. That is about like me running the website. Do you all expect me to do everything I do for free? I sure hope not. 

 

And yes some of those teams playing football should not be fielding 11-man varsity teams. They be better off in the 6-man/8-man FCAPPS leagues which quite a few FHSAA member schools are already a part of and something the FHSAA has no interested in doing and that is fine because they really shouldn't be. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Joshua, you are exactly correct! FHSAA has to collect something to cover the cost, and let's face football is the money maker for most schools and the FHSAA. I'm sure they probably loose money paying for other venues to host finals for some of the other sports. But its not like the people working for the FHSAA are all trying to take Million dollar salaries. Lets face it to an extent it is about money.

 

However, I do believe the FHSAA is trying to fix the system for the better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Joshua, you are exactly correct! FHSAA has to collect something to cover the cost, and let's face football is the money maker for most schools and the FHSAA. I'm sure they probably loose money paying for other venues to host finals for some of the other sports. But its not like the people working for the FHSAA are all trying to take Million dollar salaries. Lets face it to an extent it is about money.

 

However, I do believe the FHSAA is trying to fix the system for the better.

 

No one is making million dollar salaries. It is public record on what Dr. Dearing's base salary and additional bonuses and/or other benefits are. It is clearly stated on the FHSAA's tax returns. All you have to do is go through the FHSAA's agendas and the info is clickable to read. Some have yelled he makes too much, but the fact is he has shown he is earning what he has done. That Champion title sponsorship for the state championship games? That is him going out there and getting that for the association and that was big for the association as they hadn't had a title sponsor since Dodge had title sponsored in the late 2000's. 

 

Now as for the FHSAA trying to fix the system, yes I believe they are doing that. It has taken me longer to finish up Part II on my conferences feature, but it is a good thing. What is going to happen is that it is going to open up a lot of eyes to what can be done. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have never said they do not need to collect money. You made the comment that they lose money. I corrected you and showed you how they absolutely do not lose money. I never said they should do it for free. Not sure where you got that idea, please quote me if I said that. I simply provided the information that showed how much they collect. Just a heads up for you Josh, in 2012 the FHSAA collected a little over $32,000 from the 1A football playoffs alone. Like I said before they had zero overhead cost in collecting money from those games other than depositing the check.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have never said they do not need to collect money. You made the comment that they lose money. I corrected you and showed you how they absolutely do not lose money. I never said they should do it for free. Not sure where you got that idea, please quote me if I said that. I simply provided the information that showed how much they collect. Just a heads up for you Josh, in 2012 the FHSAA collected a little over $32,000 from the 1A football playoffs alone. Like I said before they had zero overhead cost in collecting money from those games other than depositing the check.

 

When I said lose money, I was referring to the state championship game only. Do they make money for the entire playoffs in every bracket? Sure they do and I won't disagree with that. However, saying they have zero overhead costs, is a bit much considering there are other things they are having to cover even if no one from the FHSAA office is present at a game. There are tons of things these administrators do that I think everyone forgets about, plus when they host at a state championship at which ever site, thee are costs the FHSAA has to put up front, even if the host is paying for other things.

 

If the schools are so upset about the FHSAA taking a percentage of the gate, then they need to speak up. That is all I can say to the issue because if it is the case they got to speak up. 

 

I will say I do think they have the right person now handling things for football. I haven't someone this dedicated like Frank Beasley in this position since I have been doing this. It is a fresh breath of air to see him listening to all opinions out there. What ever comes of this will only help improve the dynamics of high school football in this state. Who knows, maybe they will start to reduce the percentage of the gates if they have to or rework how it is all done and collected altogether, but remember it is going to take time and it is something I have had to learn. At one time I thought the FHSAA could make changes without much issue. Its not the case. The final say on all the issues lays in the hands of the Board of Directors. I appreciate what I have seen so far going to the board meetings. I learn more than I thought I would ever know what goes on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know they aren't taking outrageous salaries. I was more agreeing with you when you said that they can't do it for free.

 

Gotcha!

 

At least this is turning out to be a great thread. We all might have some disagreements, but I like the fact we don't have to resort to name calling to do the disagreeing. I like seeing the different view points and we can all present and argue the view points. Fans are going to have one view point, versus another point from the coaches and so forth. I think we all agree the system needs fixing on here, but where to start at, which way to go I think is the difference and that is fine. I have done my homework on several different ways. Just make things exciting again for us is what I want to see. When it makes it exciting, it makes it more exciting for me and the team here to do some cool things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I realize that you are a huge proponent for the FHSAA and believe that they do very little wrong. I however have seen the other side and some of the things they have done, some private and some in the public eye. I am very skeptical of anything they do because they have no problem saying one thing then doing another. If they were really transparent it would be great, however I really don't ever see that happening. Look at the Rural division for example, the hard number was a 600 student enrollment to be included. Three schools were allowed in with enrollments over 600. When it was questioned the enrollment numbers magically changed on the FHSAA website and all landed under 600. Now Josh how do you think that happened?? There was never a press release saying why they were admitted or an explanation. They could just say we want them included but don't piss on my head and tell me it's raining. Just one example and there are plenty more. Transparency goes a long way. Just saying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I realize that you are a huge proponent for the FHSAA and believe that they do very little wrong. I however have seen the other side and some of the things they have done, some private and some in the public eye. I am very skeptical of anything they do because they have no problem saying one thing then doing another. If they were really transparent it would be great, however I really don't ever see that happening. Look at the Rural division for example, the hard number was a 600 student enrollment to be included. Three schools were allowed in with enrollments over 600. When it was questioned the enrollment numbers magically changed on the FHSAA website and all landed under 600. Now Josh how do you think that happened?? There was never a press release saying why they were admitted or an explanation. They could just say we want them included but don't piss on my head and tell me it's raining. Just one example and there are plenty more. Transparency goes a long way. Just saying.

Yes three schools were allowed in, but a school that was in rual went on to win a state championship. The rual division was created so the small public schools didn't have to play the private school powers, and now we're concered about 50 kids over enrollment max. If the FHSAA gave everyone what they wanted then we would probably have more classes, then the complaints of having to many classes would really get fired up. It's not perfect and never will be.

 

If some sort of point system is adopted, I love the fact that every game will mean something. I do think that some of the small school powers will have a little trouble scheduling but you will see great match ups from week 1 through Daytona.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With the population growth in the state we need a solution that is going to be long term and not one that has to be readdressed in a few years.  I think we may need to look at the rural school designation I know that's not popular and I don't like it myself.  Punishing successful teams by moving them up and rewarding losing teams by moving them down in competition is a terrible idea at that point why keep score.  Successful teams are already having to play tougher competition outside of their districts due to the difficulty in scheduling teams that know they don't stand a chance against you. With as many teams as there are now we may one day not have state champions just regional. I don't really have an answer just a few thoughts I wanted to share. Forgive me if this is kind of jumping around I'm trying to watch the Lightning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sharkbait,

 

Perhaps you and I see it differently, I don't see it as punishment at all, but rather recognition of the fact that your team is good. It isn't a reward but rather recognition that after numerous years of failure maybe we need to give you a task that you can compete at. So imagine a poor 6A school being moved down to 4A in the meantime a good but not elite 3A moves up to 4A. I would suggest that these two teams would be more competitive against each rather than the poor 6A vs the average 6A and the average 3A vs the good 3A. The goal is rewarding success, competitive games, and on some level building the sport. Nobody enjoys blowouts. Nobody. Not the fans. Not the coaches. Not the players. 

 

As for the Rural Designation. It is has overall been a success. Look at the championships for the past 5 years, some repeat champions in some sports, but different potential champions every year. Now look at 4A-8A, I would bet that you could name 20 elite teams and most of them have made it far in the state championships every year. No excitement because it is the same thing every year. How many straight years did we have BTW vs Bolles? Or Miami Central vs Armwood? 

 

While I know it is will be blasphemy to suggest we look at soccer, but most soccer leagues (besides the US) have some sort of promotion and relegation. 

When you get relegated it isn't a time for joyous celebration, but when you get promoted it is.
Being competitive gives hope. Nobody enjoys getting their brains bashed in, this allows teams to think they have a chance which encourages hark work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gator, the concern is not that it was only 50 kids or only 3 teams. The concern is that when questioned the FHSAA acts as if there is nothing to see and no one is above the limit when clearly they were and acknowledged it privately. It opens Pandora's box is all I am saying. Transparency is all I am looking for. As for your idea I think it is a well thought out and researched idea. I don't agree with it though. You are punishing kids, I'm sure not in purpose but it is none the less. Say you have a 5A school that has alot of success and maybe wins a state title. Five years go by and now they are 6A and they have a team just as good and the one that won state a few years back only this time they have to play Miami Central and 20 D1 kids. Well they get beat and had a great year but they will never be remembered like the team that won state. I realize what you are trying to accomplish with the idea but there is always two sides of the story. Appreciate the dialogue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gatorman, 

 

I can see that you put a lot of thought into this and you have some really good ideas.  My viewpoint may be a little skewed because I mainly follow smaller schools although was in the first class to go to Armwood.  I know that Trenton, Port St Joe, Madison, Blountstown, Ft. Meade, and some other 1A schools can compete with many 3A,4A,and 5A schools and many 5A and 6A schools can compete with if not dominate many 7A and 8A schools. The question is if you are a perenial power and you get moved up then don't make the playoffs how long until you get moved back down.  I know coaches that don't produce don't keep their jobs and now with school choice one bad season can cost you players. I'm not saying we won't have to go to something like that but everything will need to be considered.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gator, the concern is not that it was only 50 kids or only 3 teams. The concern is that when questioned the FHSAA acts as if there is nothing to see and no one is above the limit when clearly they were and acknowledged it privately. It opens Pandora's box is all I am saying. Transparency is all I am looking for. As for your idea I think it is a well thought out and researched idea. I don't agree with it though. You are punishing kids, I'm sure not in purpose but it is none the less. Say you have a 5A school that has alot of success and maybe wins a state title. Five years go by and now they are 6A and they have a team just as good and the one that won state a few years back only this time they have to play Miami Central and 20 D1 kids. Well they get beat and had a great year but they will never be remembered like the team that won state. I realize what you are trying to accomplish with the idea but there is always two sides of the story. Appreciate the dialogue.

 

Captain,

I wasn't the one who questioned the 3 schools or 50 students. I understand what you saying though. I would argue for the Rural Class to be a long term success that population numbers will have to slowly grow the cutoff. I am not suggesting that a school of 800 or something, but I have no problem with a 615 or so population. A better long term solution if the goal is to have a firm 600 cutoff is to go by a 3 or 4 year average and not a one year snapshot especially when doing something like a hard cap.  Anyway, I think the rural class is a huge success and hope it continues. 

 

The same idea that exists for the rural league should exist for other leagues as well though. Schools want to compete against similar type of schools. Rural Schools were tired of having to play Bolles or University Christian or Trinity Catholic or North Florida Christian. Small private schools that are not them are tired of it. They don't want to get their butts whooped to that extent. So many of them are moving independent. My system simply recognizes that fact. If you move good teams up, they will face better schools. If you move bad teams down

 

As for your concern, Miami Central wouldn't be there because they would be up in 8A with their 20 D1s (or at least we would hope so). Now if this fictional team is in 8A with Miami Central and their 20 d1s then they did something to deserve it. 

 

Yes a team that wins a state championship is always remembered, but never has it meant that they were the best team the school has ever had. Luck, weather, your opponents, referees, game day matchups have all played a role in how a playoff bracket shakes out. I can think of a local girls basketball team that made the state playoffs one year with nothing but sophomores and juniors. The belief was that the next year they should be going further in the state playoffs. Next year comes, they are a better team. They win more games against better competition. They lose in the first round of the district playoffs and fail to make the state playoffs. I will tell you that was the best team that they had, but they didn't make the playoffs. It happens, it is part of the game.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sharkbait,

 

First realize that my proposal doesn't affect 1A because they are so unique in their requirements.

As for how quickly they move up or down, well that would depends on bad they did and how close were they to the cutoff lines. If we continued to use population and last 5 years of success.

Or we can use simple measures like the total number of district wins over the past two seasons. The lowest team in each district moves down. The 16 teams that make it the furthest in the playoffs combined over the course of 2 years move up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Take 36 for 1A...which would be a mix of 4 and 5 team districts which is fair. There are several teams in 1A now above 600 including one way above which is South Walton who turned in 689 (they were below 600 in 2014). South Walton is in a growing area so their days as a rural team are numbered now. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Take 36 for 1A...which would be a mix of 4 and 5 team districts which is fair. There are several teams in 1A now above 600 including one way above which is South Walton who turned in 689 (they were below 600 in 2014). South Walton is in a growing area so their days as a rural team are numbered now. 

I could live with that but also keep districts and play it off head to head and scrap the point system

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  



×