Jon Santucci crying in print about his team not having chance to win a fake (suburban) state championship

[Tigerskin]

On 2/23/2022 at 7:20 PM, Ray Icaza said:

They like others (not naming names) including my Alma Mater would prefer dealing with those teams (8A) than STA every year.

I agree with you STA is on another level College lineman every year. I know if the Metro/Suburban did pass we would like to move out of the Rural 1A into the new 1B with the private schools for the same reasons we have a better chance.

[Jesse]

46 minutes ago, Tigerskin said:

Agree the best way is to move up the top 15% and move down the bottom 15%.The proponents say the Metro/Suburban is to bring competitive  balance yet Madison can stay 1A and will win State every year or is the competitive balance only for the schools who are pushing this. I know i would like to see the true rural 1A schools pull out and start their on thing.I heard if they try to go Districts a lot of 1A schools will just go Independent. Do you know how many schools have to be in a class for them to have a State Series? The only 1A schools who can stay on the field with Madison are the ones who get in a lot of Transfers and we all know what happened to Trenton but that was their only chance to stay on the field with them.

I will never forget super trenton. Are you a trenton fan,  if so I'm waiting for them to return they still 2nd best in 1A. 

[VeniceIndianFan]

1 hour ago, Tigerskin said:

I agree with you STA is on another level College lineman every year. I know if the Metro/Suburban did pass we would like to move out of the Rural 1A into the new 1B with the private schools for the same reasons we have a better chance.

It takes a really special team to compete with STA in the playoffs. Lakeland is the only team to have beaten them consistently in state championship games or otherwise, in the playoffs. Lakeland holds a 6-1 record against STA in the postseason. SIX WINS over the most storied program in Florida HSFB history. ‘Nuff said.

[Joshua Wilson]

2 hours ago, Jambun82 said:

I am very disappointed to read that you have typed this Josh.  

I am not defending the FHSAA, but if you actually do the research, you will see where in their bylaws and policies you will see where a lot of references to State Statues comes into play and if you look at the State Statues references you will see where the state has taken the power away from the FHSAA to make decisions regarding transfers and anything related.

[Joshua Wilson]

2 hours ago, Tigerskin said:

But when the teams move up ,the next year will be a whole new group of teams make the playoffs in that class which would bring more of the balance everybody is asking for.

They did talk about something similar like this a few years back (thinking 2017 maybe?) but the FHSAA member schools torpedoed the proposal from the onset. 

[Football fan]

Start another Petition on Madison the first one didn’t work 

[Nulli Secundus]

6 hours ago, VeniceIndiansFootball said:

It takes a really special team to compete with STA in the playoffs. Lakeland is the only team to have beaten them consistently in state championship games or otherwise, in the playoffs. Lakeland holds a 6-1 record against STA in the postseason. SIX WINS over the most storied program in Florida HSFB history. ‘Nuff said.

Close, LOL.

I can't undervalue the wins STA has against the Naughts.  Lakeland is 6-2 all time versus STA.

1996 FINALS - Lakeland over STA 40-6 Full game video
1997 Regional Finals - STA over Lakeland in Lakeland 25-22 game highlights
1998 Regional Finals - Lakeland over STA in Ft. Lauderdale 31-27
2004 FINALS - Lakeland over STA 31-7 - Full game video
2005 FINALS - Lakeland over STA 39-10 - Full game video
2006 FINALS - Lakeland over STA 45-42 - Full game video
2008 FINALS - STA over Lakeland 56-7 - Highlights video 1 | Highlights video 2
2018 FINALS - Lakeland over STA 33-20 - Full game video

[Floridaatlantic1]

Hey Kowboy fan , you keep saying build  up your program and they will come which means get pretty good so  the recruits will come to your school which I am fine with. I don’t want anything to change unless it actually solves the recruiting and competitive balance. My Issue is how can my school build up when the metro plan puts 8 classes into 4 and makes district games a demolition derby for my team playing other teams that do actually recruit and cheat. 

[Floridaatlantic1]

Plus my school not only will play teams that cheat but they also have  double my schools population as well. Sounds fair. 

[VeniceIndianFan]

3 hours ago, Nulli Secundus said:

Close, LOL.

I can't undervalue the wins STA has against the Naughts.  Lakeland is 6-2 all time versus STA.

1996 FINALS - Lakeland over STA 40-6 Full game video
1997 Regional Finals - STA over Lakeland in Lakeland 25-22 game highlights
1998 Regional Finals - Lakeland over STA in Ft. Lauderdale 31-27
2004 FINALS - Lakeland over STA 31-7 - Full game video
2005 FINALS - Lakeland over STA 39-10 - Full game video
2006 FINALS - Lakeland over STA 45-42 - Full game video
2008 FINALS - STA over Lakeland 56-7 - Highlights video 1 | Highlights video 2
2018 FINALS - Lakeland over STA 33-20 - Full game video

My most sincere apologies, can’t believe you caught me over ONE LOSS!  Lol. Lakeland has quite a program!

[Nulli Secundus]

1 hour ago, VeniceIndiansFootball said:

My most sincere apologies, can’t believe you caught me over ONE LOSS!  Lol. Lakeland has quite a program!

No apologies necessary.  I simply set the record straight as to not do a disservice to STA Alum, players and fans.  

Let us not forget Venice 77, Dwyer 14 is the same year the Indians took out Lakeland.  We were poised for a repeat but YOU INDIANS had other plans, LOL.  Venice has once heck of a program as well and that's just one example.  

[Ray Icaza]

3 hours ago, Floridaatlantic1 said:

Hey Kowboy fan , you keep saying build  up your program and they will come which means get pretty good so  the recruits will come to your school which I am fine with. I don’t want anything to change unless it actually solves the recruiting and competitive balance. My Issue is how can my school build up when the metro plan puts 8 classes into 4 and makes district games a demolition derby for my team playing other teams that do actually recruit and cheat. 

More BS, I have never said build up your program and they will come although I have seen comments from others like that.  We are just talking past each other as you obviously don't comprehend my stance.  One, I clearly stated this Metro/Suburban will not solve the transfer issue and laid out how I believe it to be solved. Two, as Josh has tried to educate you with the fact it isn't the FHSAA that can rectify this situation but the Florida State Legislature.  Three, our county is unique in that we are next to WDW and starting around 1970 they began promoting heavily into Puerto Rico plus other Latin American countries to staff "THE MOUSE".  Up until then, we had 1 HS in Kissimmee and 1 in St. Cloud.  That grew the population in Kissimmee dramatically and to this day affects Gateway, Poinciana, Liberty and even Celebration that were built once that trend took hold.  They may even be more skewed than OHS with the enrollment numbers of Hispanic kids.  I am Hispanic, so not judging how it has affected the area but do know many "Old Timers" I went to school with in the "60's moved to east side of the county which was still pretty rural to get away from the "Progress".  Thus their makeup (St. Cloud & Harmony) is not affected quite as much, they have kids loyal to their program and don't have nearly the negative transfer problem as the aforementioned Kissimmee schools.  Lastly, since we were the original HS in town many Alum want their kids attending OHS for a variety of reasons, sports, bands, loyalty, familiarity with staff, other family attending, etc.. and thus we end up with a few players that were zoned for other schools but basically nil from the east side of the county.  To make statements like some have made with no understanding of our local dynamics is irresponsible and ill conceived.   GO KOWBOYS!

[Nulli Secundus]

19 hours ago, nolebull813 said:

It’s no coincidence that Osceola County has like 8 high schools and 7 of them are HOT GARBAGE!!!!! 

Demographics dictate most of that.  It's not changing in our lifetime either.

[gatorman-uf]

On 2/23/2022 at 4:07 PM, Joshua Wilson said:

The classification system is broken... 

If you want the Metro schools to keep winning and taking all the spots in the state championships which also brings fewer fans to the stands while the schools in suburban and rural areas continue to get whipped because they can't get the talent needed because they don't have the luxury having 500,000 people in a small radius and knowing these are the schools that can bring fans to the stadium when state championships are held, then yes let's keep kicking the can down the road.

Open enrollment is here to stay, this plan is at least an attempt to try to do "Something" to fix the issues. Ok so what if it doesn't work? You keep working on it, but to not put any solution into action is not a good course of action. Doing the same thing over and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity. 

Multipliers won't do it because its a gray area involving open enrollment. Public/Private is not an option because its has been suggested before and not something from what I have heard is a popular idea with state legislators. 

End of the day sadly, I don't think this is going to pass leaving us with the current system in place... but I am tired of predicting the same state champions over and over again months before the season starts. That is not fun for me as a journalist, an advocate of this sport, nor is it fun for you all as fans.

The answer is the same I have said for over 10 years. A promotion and relegation system is the answer to every problem. If a team recruits and dominates a classification, move them up a classification. If a team has trouble fielding a team, move them down.

Do it based on a 4 year rolling average of success (MaxPreps Rating), so a team doesn't go from 2A to 8A overnight, only one classification bump per year. Even 1A should have its most dominate team switch with the lowest ranked rural school(regardless of size)

Tell me why this isn't a simpler and easier way to do this. It eliminates concerns about open enrollment/recruiting, because they face other tough teams.

If you want to do it even better, 8A should be 64 teams at max, the rest of the classes of the classes 96. 

[Ray Icaza]

29 minutes ago, Nulli Secundus said:

Demographics dictate most of that.  It's not changing in our lifetime either.

Correct, enrollment is deceiving in many ways; our number sits a bit over 2800 but a conservative estimate is we work out of a pool of less than 1400 for football due to demographics.  The other HS's in town deal with this situation as well when it comes to football.  Even lowly, Poinciana has won a state basketball championship in recent years whereas we have earned 3 and challenged for several more.  These demographics don't affect some of the sports these kids played in their native country.  Football is the outlier in the equation.  Due to low success and recognition, low coaches pay, no tradition, lack of community support it feeds more turnover in football staff making it extremely difficult for these coaches to build a program.  Correct again, it ain't changing anytime soon.

[Nulli Secundus]

33 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

The answer is the same I have said for over 10 years. A promotion and relegation system is the answer to every problem. If a team recruits and dominates a classification, move them up a classification. If a team has trouble fielding a team, move them down.

Do it based on a 4 yrar rolling average of success (MaxPreps Rating), so a team doesn't go from 2A to 8A overnight, only one classification bump per year. Even 1A should have its most dominate team switch with the lowest ranked rural school(regardless of size)

Tell me why this isn't a simpler and easier way to do this. It eliminates concerns about open enrollment/recruiting, because they face other tough teams.

If you want to do it even better, 8A should be 64 teams at max, the rest of the classes of the classes 96. 

I agree with everything you said EXCEPT 4 year rolling average to determine promotion/demotion and the number of classes. 

I believe reclassification should be done every year as teams and rosters dynamically shift every season and that's as close to real time as one can get.  I would also eliminate two classes.  Those changes alone would balance a lot of the discrepancies between the haves/have nots and foster greater district/playoff competition.  There are large schools that can't beat their way out of wet paper bag and would benefit from being in a lower classification.  Using Poinciana as an example, they have been the perennial loser in Osceola county for as long as I can remember.  This past season, they lost to a first year program just across the county line.  That's bad, and there's really no other way to state that.  I'm not picking on Poinciana or Osceola County for that matter.  The point is there are Poinciana's in every county in this great state (except Madison of course).  Classification based on performance will help mitigate most of these issues.

Just my opinion.  However, I'd be happy if the FHSAA implemented any concept of what you've proposed.  

[gatorman-uf]

53 minutes ago, Nulli Secundus said:

I agree with everything you said EXCEPT 4 year rolling average to determine promotion/demotion and the number of classes. 

I believe reclassification should be done every year as teams and rosters dynamically shift every season and that's as close to real time as one can get.  I would also eliminate two classes.  Those changes alone would balance a lot of the discrepancies between the haves/have nots and foster greater district/playoff competition. 

I have no problem eliminating 2 classes. I suggest a 4 year rolling average (for all sports), because you get that special team sometimes that just dominates for 1 year, but then the coach moves on and the Senior class graduates and the team is mediocre again.

If it is a 4 year average, teams don't have to fear having one great year moves you up, but rather constant success. 

I do think that promotion/relegation should happen every year, just the determination is based on the previous 4 years of data.

[Perspective]

For those of you who favor promotion/relegation, what would you think about having a "platinum league?"  (I'd call it a "Premier League," but that might get the FHSAA in legal hot water).  Public schools and privates; any school that wants to be a part of it, regardless of size, can elect to play in this top division.   Divide it up geographically if more than 10 teams elect to be a part of it.  The top couple of teams from the top classification in the normal league, whether that be 6a or 8A, would move into the Platinum League, where they would stay for a a year or two or three.  After that, they would stay or drop back down based on performance.   They could only drop back down if they finish in the bottom tier  (average ranking if more than one year), but they could choose to stay longer if they want to.    From a scheduling standpoint, I'd say that the teams in the Platinum League would have to play 50% of their regular season games against other Platinum League teams; the balance could be played against traditional rival teams, geographically close teams, out of state teams, etc.  At the end of the season, all teams in the Platinum League qualify for the state championship series, get seeded and then play.  That said, they may need to cap the tournament at 16 teams to get all the games in. 

If this plan were to go into effect, all I would want is a simple "thank you."  Oh, and the TV rights for the championship game. 

Just trying to think outside the box a little.  Any obvious drawbacks? 

[Ray Icaza]

2 hours ago, Nulli Secundus said:

I agree with everything you said EXCEPT 4 year rolling average to determine promotion/demotion and the number of classes. 

I believe reclassification should be done every year as teams and rosters dynamically shift every season and that's as close to real time as one can get.  I would also eliminate two classes.  Those changes alone would balance a lot of the discrepancies between the haves/have nots and foster greater district/playoff competition.  There are large schools that can't beat their way out of wet paper bag and would benefit from being in a lower classification.  Using Poinciana as an example, they have been the perennial loser in Osceola county for as long as I can remember.  This past season, they lost to a first year program just across the county line.  That's bad, and there's really no other way to state that.  I'm not picking on Poinciana or Osceola County for that matter.  The point is there are Poinciana's in every county in this great state (except Madison of course).  Classification based on performance will help mitigate most of these issues.

Just my opinion.  However, I'd be happy if the FHSAA implemented any concept of what you've proposed.  

Counties have perennial losers and unfortunately Poinciana is ours.  Tenoroc is Polk's as they did beat Poinciana this year but not last year. 

[Nulli Secundus]

1 hour ago, Ray Icaza said:

Counties have perennial losers and unfortunately Poinciana is ours.  Tenoroc is Polk's as they did beat Poinciana this year but not last year. 

Tenoroc finished 5-3.  Lake Region is far worse and they still managed to defeat Poinciana.  However, they did lose to Gateway and Celebration so.....  It's between Lake Region and Kathleen record wise.  The Red Devils really fell off the map.  All their talent is going to George Jenkins, LMAO!  

[Ray Icaza]

43 minutes ago, Nulli Secundus said:

Tenoroc finished 5-3.  Lake Region is far worse and they still managed to defeat Poinciana.  However, they did lose to Gateway and Celebration so.....  It's between Lake Region and Kathleen record wise.  The Red Devils really fell off the map.  All their talent is going to George Jenkins, LMAO!  

Not making excuses for Poinciana as undoubtedly they always struggle but last year was an unusually down year due to a series of personnel issues which the coaching staff had to deal with.  But if you look at Tenoroc's record the previous 5 years ('16-'21) they were a combined 13-33 managing to lose to both Poinciana and Liberty every time they played each other.  Don't know much about Lake Region, but scheduling Tenoroc seemed like a sure win for those Osceola coaches.  Just putting things in perspective.

[Perspective]

13 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:

 Just putting things in perspective.

And that's always a good thing, Ray. 

[Ray Icaza]

On 2/23/2022 at 8:18 PM, Jesse said:

Yes madison will win with the smallest population. Just imagine madison with Tallahassee population. 

Jesse, just curious why your sophomore sensation RB Fleming hasn't picked up an offer from FSU only 20 miles away from Lowndes.  They just offered Taevion Swint a FRESHMAN running back from OHS to go along with the Gator offer. 

[Jesse]

26 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:

Jesse, just curious why your sophomore sensation RB Fleming hasn't picked up an offer from FSU only 20 miles away from Lowndes.  They just offered Taevion Swint a FRESHMAN running back from OHS to go along with the Gator offer. 

He will soon 

[Jesse]

Madison gonna be fine remember it's the program not the coach . Them boys built different.  I will no longer be following mike coe. I am for Madison county.  But I hope he wins state championship. But doesn't beat or play Madison ever.