Metro/Suburban Plan voted on. PASSED

[Ray Icaza]

15 minutes ago, Floridaatlantic1 said:

If population was the big difference why were some counties who are in top 8 or 9 not in metro. Plan conveniently used population density. what the heck is even in Seminole county. Parks and bears is all I heard. They are not close to being metro. Why is polk not in  metro. Convenient I am sure or their state rep might blow up whole FHSAA. This is a group of school who are glad to be second rate fake state champs.. that the reason for the plan. To act like real state champs when they are almost good enough now. wont help average schools in either division. FAKE Championships- I wonder which games college scouts would prefer to see. The REAL state Champs of metro or the suburban chumps. 

Easy answer, ALL OF THE ABOVE!   Now for the real question, what scouts would bother attending the consolation game for the losers category in your plan.

[Nulli Secundus]

39 minutes ago, Floridaatlantic1 said:

If population was the big difference why were some counties who are in top 8 or 9 not in metro. Plan conveniently used population density. what the heck is even in Seminole county. Parks and bears is all I heard. They are not close to being metro. Why is polk not in  metro. Convenient I am sure or their state rep might blow up whole FHSAA. This is a group of school who are glad to be second rate fake state champs.. that the reason for the plan. To act like real state champs when they are almost good enough now. wont help average schools in either division. FAKE Championships- I wonder which games college scouts would prefer to see. The REAL state Champs of metro or the suburban chumps. 

They selected the top 8 counties based on population density, not highest population.  That's why Seminole is in instead of Lee.  Don't come for Polk!

[Perspective]

28 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:

Perspective, who is your question addressed to?

Anyone and everyone. 

[Perspective]

20 minutes ago, Nulli Secundus said:

They selected the top 8 counties based on population density, not highest population.  That's why Seminole is in instead of Lee.  Don't come for Polk!

Was any rationale provided (by staff or anyone speaking on behalf of the motion) as to why they picked "population density" over "population?"  

It's almost as if someone had a gut feeling in their mind as to who the metro counties should be and then came up with a formula that yielded those 8 counties. 

[Nulli Secundus]

4 minutes ago, Perspective said:

Was any rationale provided (by staff or anyone speaking on behalf of the motion) as to why they picked "population density" over "population?"  

Nothing that I've heard as I was under the misconception (along with a lot of people obviously) that the initial proposal for qualifying metro counties was based on highest population.  I would certainly defer that question to @Joshua Wilson

[Ray Icaza]

41 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:

Perspective, who is your question addressed to?

I do not know who the proponents of this plan are or the reasoning they put forward for achieving competitive balance.  No plan under the current rules is going to make everyone happy and will certainly piss of some.  As I have stated previously, this plan does not address the underlying problems of School Choice or private school advantages over publics.  But of the two plans I have read about on this forum, I do see it addressing the numbers advantage in talent possessed by the large metro areas when you are operating under the School Choice formula.  I don't know if our county has ever had a 5* recruit and rarely 4* in any numbers.  The Metro areas have them every year it seems with multiple 4*, so this plan is trying to mitigate that advantage.  In any event, even though some genius on this forum claimed it had zero chance of passing it has and only time will tell how it will play out.

[Perspective]

Josh,

I understand that you were at the meeting today.   And I think you indicated that you would putting together an article.  Far be it for me to tell you how to write your article, but I would really be interested to see you address these questions in your article (even if the answer is that the Board did not address the issue in their public debate):

1.  What was the primary argument advanced by the proponents of this plan?  In other words, what reason did the proponents give as to why this proposal was necessary?

2.  Does this concept apply to all sports or just football?  If only football, why doesn't the same rationale apply to other sports?

3.  Did the proposal/motion that was approved establish which counties/schools are metro and which are suburban?  Did it establish the population cut-off numbers for metro/suburban?  If not, who will make all these decisions? If I understand correctly, 8 counties were determined to be “metro” based on population density.   Which brings me to my final question:

4.  Was any rationale provided (by staff or anyone speaking on behalf of the motion) as to why they picked "population density" over "population?"    To my knowledge, the FHSAA has used school and county student populations for several things over the years, but I’ve never seen them use population density.   Where did this concept come from? 

 

Thanks in advance. 

(In the meantime, anyone else can chime in). 

[Tigerskin]

I got a idea everybody create a charter school then you can drop down a few classes . For the poster who said all rural 1A wants to run from the privates our school is now going to petition to go to the Suburban 1 B with the private since their enrollment is 600 and down same as 1A.Can somebody tell me what would the fhsaa do if a lot of schools pull out or go Independant?

[Perspective]

Just had a thought:  if kids can choose which school they want to go to, perhaps schools should be able to choose which classification they want to play in (metro or suburban; 1A, 2A, 3A or 4A).  We'll call it "Classification Choice." 

[Tigerskin]

I was not a big fan of it because the same debate that says the big counties have more people to bring in transfers forget  1 A Rural with most counties below 30,000 going against a Hawthorne which is in a county of over 400,000 or Pahokee in a county of over 1 million  to do the same thing bring in transfers . That’s why I’m more for move up or down due to success on the field if were to listen to the people who created this explain it’s for competitve balance

[Dr. D]

20 minutes ago, Perspective said:

Josh,

I understand that you were at the meeting today.   And I think you indicated that you would putting together an article.  Far be it for me to tell you how to write your article, but I would really be interested to see you address these questions in your article (even if the answer is that the Board did not address the issue in their public debate):

1.  What was the primary argument advanced by the proponents of this plan?  In other words, what reason did the proponents give as to why this proposal was necessary?

2.  Does this concept apply to all sports or just football?  If only football, why doesn't the same rationale apply to other sports?

3.  Did the proposal/motion that was approved establish which counties/schools are metro and which are suburban?  Did it establish the population cut-off numbers for metro/suburban?  If not, who will make all these decisions? If I understand correctly, 8 counties were determined to be “metro” based on population density.   Which brings me to my final question:

4.  Was any rationale provided (by staff or anyone speaking on behalf of the motion) as to why they picked "population density" over "population?"    To my knowledge, the FHSAA has used school and county student populations for several things over the years, but I’ve never seen them use population density.   Where did this concept come from? 

 

Thanks in advance. 

(In the meantime, anyone else can chime in). 

In response to #4 above, the FHSAA documents (Jan 2020 Football Advisory Committee) make mention of using the 8 "most populated" counties to form the Metro, specifically listing Lee County among the top 8.  Then at the Jan 2021 Football Advisory Committee meeting, the proposal had been changed to using the 8 "most densely populated" counties, and Seminole County was inserted in place of Lee County.  There is no discussion in any of the meeting minutes I can find online that indicate why/how the decision was reached to use population density over population, but something happened somewhere.  Perhaps something was said today that would shed light on your question.

[Ray Icaza]

35 minutes ago, Tigerskin said:

I was not a big fan of it because the same debate that says the big counties have more people to bring in transfers forget  1 A Rural with most counties below 30,000 going against a Hawthorne which is in a county of over 400,000 or Pahokee in a county of over 1 million  to do the same thing bring in transfers . That’s why I’m more for move up or down due to success on the field if were to listen to the people who created this explain it’s for competitve balance

This is a valid concern and hopefully going forward more tweaking can be done.  However, according to the 2020 census Alachua had about 280,000 not over 400,000 but still a significant disparity.  Most kids that jump schools are an easy drive away, generally 10 miles or less but hardly ever exceeding 20 miles.  Your Pahokee example is not strong although it does reside in a highly populated county as a daily commute would probably exceed 40 miles each way if someone wanted to leave Palm Beach area to attend school there.  Highly unlikely they are achieving their football success from a bunch of high profile transfers each and every year.

[Tigerskin]

7 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:

This is a valid concern and hopefully going forward more tweaking can be done.  However, according to the 2020 census Alachua had about 280,000 not over 400,000 but still a significant disparity.  Most kids that jump schools are an easy drive away, generally 10 miles or less but hardly ever exceeding 20 miles.  Your Pahokee example is not strong although it does reside in a highly populated county as a daily commute would probably exceed 40 miles each way if someone wanted to leave Palm Beach area to attend school there.  Highly unlikely they are achieving their football success from a bunch of high profile transfers each and every year.

I was wrong on Alachua don’t know we’re I got that number . The same argument when you talk about Pahokee and driving 40 miles could also be said about all the big metro areas why would someone drive from Southern Duval County to play in Northern Duval over 40 miles with traffic , and I don’t know much about Dade or Broward Counties but why would a kid drive across them counties with a heck of a lot of traffic. Everybody just thinks that rural 1 A is the model to follow and it’s just as flawed as the other classes the same 3 teams will win every year.

[Floridaatlantic1]

Someone in suburban saw that lee county sucks at football and Seminole county had the 8a states champs and switched the two counties even though no one from Orange County drive 40 minutes to transfer to seminole. Joke plan 

[Perspective]

49 minutes ago, Dr. D said:

In response to #4 above, the FHSAA documents (Jan 2020 Football Advisory Committee) make mention of using the 8 "most populated" counties to form the Metro, specifically listing Lee County among the top 8.  Then at the Jan 2021 Football Advisory Committee meeting, the proposal had been changed to using the 8 "most densely populated" counties, and Seminole County was inserted in place of Lee County.  There is no discussion in any of the meeting minutes I can find online that indicate why/how the decision was reached to use population density over population, but something happened somewhere.  Perhaps something was said today that would shed light on your question.

The plot thickens. 

Based on a cursory review of the FHSAA Board of Directors, Lee County has two representatives on the Board, while Seminole County has none.   The two Lee County members are Mr. Thomas Kenna (AD at Cape Coral H.S.) and Ms. Chris Patricca (a Lee County School Board member).   I'm just speculating, but perhaps the folks in Lee County didn't want to spend their limited post-season time driving southeast to get their butts kicked by South Florida teams on a regular basis and quietly figured out a way to slide into the Suburban group at the expense of Seminole. 

Or maybe I've just read too many John Grisham books over the years. 

[Ray Icaza]

4 minutes ago, Tigerskin said:

I was wrong on Alachua don’t know we’re I got that number . The same argument when you talk about Pahokee and driving 40 miles could also be said about all the big metro areas why would someone drive from Southern Duval County to play in Northern Duval over 40 miles with traffic , and I don’t know much about Dade or Broward Counties but why would a kid drive across them counties with a heck of a lot of traffic. Everybody just thinks that rural 1 A is the model to follow and it’s just as flawed as the other classes the same 3 teams will win every year.

Dillard, a proud school with lots of talent and lot of athletic success is a stone's throw from STA.  As are others that get cherry picked.  Most are waking up to that fact and are fighting back.  If the kid hasn't taken up resident with another family member, friend or whatever they aren't doing a long commute.  Big city density allows for that not to be necessary.

[Ray Icaza]

2 minutes ago, Floridaatlantic1 said:

Someone in suburban saw that lee county sucks at football and Seminole county had the 8a states champs and switched the two counties even though no one from Orange County drive 40 minutes to transfer to seminole. Joke plan 

That supposedly wouldn't pass.  Joke forecast.

[Tigerskin]

34 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:

Dillard, a proud school with lots of talent and lot of athletic success is a stone's throw from STA.  As are others that get cherry picked.  Most are waking up to that fact and are fighting back.  If the kid hasn't taken up resident with another family member, friend or whatever they aren't doing a long commute.  Big city density allows for that not to be necessary.

But if Pahokee gets back great they wil be able to cherry pick from a big county that other schools in rural counties don’t have that luxury

[Jesse]

32 minutes ago, Tigerskin said:

But if Pahokee gets back great they wil be able to cherry pick from a big county that other schools in rural counties don’t have that luxury

Pahokee has to play trinity christian lmao

[gatorman-uf]

30 minutes ago, Tigerskin said:

But if Pahokee gets back great they wil be able to cherry pick from a big county that other schools in rural counties don’t have that luxury

Seriously, we are worried that Pahokee is going to start picking up transfers? Glades Central is the closest school to Pahokee, they are 13.3 miles, and no kid is turning on Belle Glade for Pahokee (or vice versa). And if we are concerned, why are we not concerned that Union County is only 15.9 miles from Bradford. (Yes, school choice allows you to attend another district's schools if there is room).

[Joshua Wilson]

3 hours ago, Nulli Secundus said:

Nothing that I've heard as I was under the misconception (along with a lot of people obviously) that the initial proposal for qualifying metro counties was based on highest population.  I would certainly defer that question to @Joshua Wilson

They picked population density as some areas are more dense in terms of numbers. If they had went to overall population instead of Seminole, Lee County would have been the eighth county on the Metro County list which likely could have flipped peoples lid in Southwest Florida. 

[Joshua Wilson]

 

[gatorman-uf]

2 hours ago, Perspective said:

Josh,

I understand that you were at the meeting today.   And I think you indicated that you would putting together an article.  Far be it for me to tell you how to write your article, but I would really be interested to see you address these questions in your article (even if the answer is that the Board did not address the issue in their public debate):

1.  What was the primary argument advanced by the proponents of this plan?  In other words, what reason did the proponents give as to why this proposal was necessary?

2.  Does this concept apply to all sports or just football?  If only football, why doesn't the same rationale apply to other sports?

Thanks in advance. 

(In the meantime, anyone else can chime in). 

I am not Josh, but maybe (non-Metro) people have noted the recent dominance of metro state championships (like 90%) in 2A-8A. They feel that even if you have a great (non-Metro) team, too many of the great teams in these metro can stockpile talent, because the density is too high and the players because of school choice can easily go to.

They won't say it is because they don't want to play Miami Northwestern, Miami Central, STA, Bolles, Trinity Christian, but that is what it really boils down to.

2) Only football, and if you pay attention to some of the local journalists who cover high school sports, they were pushing for it for everything (they used this weekend's METRO girls basketball as proof).

___________________

I do find it interesting that the most Republican of areas of the state (North Florida/SW FL) are the ones pushing this more than any other area, when it was their legislators in the Florida House/Senate/Governor that pushed for Open Enrollment, which leads to the creation of these super teams. And now that these super teams are created, they are upset, but don't realize it was their own people that did this to them. (They prefer to blame the "Metro" areas and their recruiting). 

[Nulli Secundus]

1 hour ago, Perspective said:

The plot thickens. 

Based on a cursory review of the FHSAA Board of Directors, Lee County has two representatives on the Board, while Seminole County has none.   The two Lee County members are Mr. Thomas Kenna (AD at Cape Coral H.S.) and Ms. Chris Patricca (a Lee County School Board member).   I'm just speculating, but perhaps the folks in Lee County didn't want to spend their limited post-season time driving southeast to get their butts kicked by South Florida teams on a regular basis and quietly figured out a way to slide into the Suburban group at the expense of Seminole. 

Or maybe I've just read too many John Grisham books over the years. 

I LOVE THIS SITE!  You all make me laugh every day.  Great post!

[Perspective]

32 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

I am not Josh, but maybe (non-Metro) people have noted the recent dominance of metro state championships (like 90%) in 2A-8A. They feel that even if you have a great (non-Metro) team, too many of the great teams in these metro can stockpile talent, because the density is too high and the players because of school choice can easily go to.

They won't say it is because they don't want to play Miami Northwestern, Miami Central, STA, Bolles, Trinity Christian, but that is what it really boils down to.

 

No doubt in my mind that this is the real reason why it was done.  I'm just curious what reasons were stated.  Did the Board members from the rural areas really stand up and say "our schools can't compete with the metro schools" or did they manufacture some other reason to support their position and/or justify their vote?