Lakeland-Venice

[skyway]

ugly half for Venice. Only an absurd number of penalties-perhaps all deserved as it's hard to tell from NFHS stream- against Lakeland have this at 21-0 at the half. There was a 3rd and 17 for Venice that I missed but was converted. Outside of that, I'm not sure the Indians have any yards of offense. Lakeland has been airing it out.

[skyway]

One of the things that makes high school football interesting is the way in which tactical advantages and disparities in efficiency in execution- things like "hidden yards"- play a role in the outcome of games. Venice has always been a master in these areas since Peacock has been there. In some combination of credit to Venice, criticism of Lakeland, or an indictment of the officiating, a true miracle happened at Bryant Stadium tonight. Venice lost to Lakeland by a final score of 31- 24. That that was the final margin-given what anyone who viewed the game observed, is hilarious. This was a running clock match up. It should have never been merely 31-7 in the 4th. Yet, it was. And then Venice "back-doored" their way to the final margin. There will be people who didn't watch the game who will assume it was kind of a close game. LOL. Credit to  horrifically outmanned Venice team that found a way to make the final margin of defeat seven points.

[VeniceIndianFan]

1 hour ago, skyway said:

One of the things that makes high school football interesting is the way in which tactical advantages and disparities in efficiency in execution- things like "hidden yards"- play a role in the outcome of games. Venice has always been a master in these areas since Peacock has been there. In some combination of credit to Venice, criticism of Lakeland, or an indictment of the officiating, a true miracle happened at Bryant Stadium tonight. Venice lost to Lakeland by a final score of 31- 24. That that was the final margin-given what anyone who viewed the game observed, is hilarious. This was a running clock match up. It should have never been merely 31-7 in the 4th. Yet, it was. And then Venice "back-doored" their way to the final margin. There will be people who didn't watch the game who will assume it was kind of a close game. LOL. Credit to  horrifically outmanned Venice team that found a way to make the final margin of defeat seven points.

Credit to Lakeland tonight: they dominated in every phase of the game. I’m sorry I couldn’t be there; I have some family In town right now or else we could have met before the game.

I hope this isn’t a precursor of the regular season, as Venice’s offensive line seemed really spotty. On some plays they looked like the o-line of last year, but most of the time it looked like they were blocking thin air. Bentley had almost no time to throw. Defense looked ok at points, they had a few plays where they got good pressure and I think they even registered a sack. But overall it was the pitiful offense that doomed them to lose this game. They need to sort out the issues with the offensive line quickly, or else they could be in for a 3-7 season with the kind of teams scheduled to play. 

With that being said, I can’t wait for the season to begin. I know they will get the issues sorted out and a least be in the mix for another run in 2022. But it’s going to be very tough to get back to the big dance with you guys, Osceola, Riverview, and LG in the way. I am hopeful that they can repeat but realistic as right now, the odds do not appear good for another magical run. However, Father Time has yet to tell a lie and we will have to wait and see how everything shakes out. 

Go Indians! 

[PinellasFB]

I've seen a lot of teams get smoked in the spring but came back in the fall as a powerhouse.  There are a lot of factors in the spring game where teams can have a lot of guys sitting out or not playing spring for various reasons.  You can also look really ragged as it is the time to experiment with moving different guys around to find the right mix.  If Venice is talented, which they always are, then dont even sweat it as they will be good.  

[skyway]

18 minutes ago, PinellasFB said:

I've seen a lot of teams get smoked in the spring but came back in the fall as a powerhouse.  There are a lot of factors in the spring game where teams can have a lot of guys sitting out or not playing spring for various reasons.  You can also look really ragged as it is the time to experiment with moving different guys around to find the right mix.  If Venice is talented, which they always are, then dont even sweat it as they will be good.  

Sure. Summer recruiting classes can change things. So can off-season player development; position and scheme switches etc. If Venice's fall roster includes several big-time players that didn't play last night, they might could become competitive with Lakeland in the "suburban" playoffs. Should be interesting to gather details on who, if anyone, was missing or hurt from both teams last night. 

[Jambun82]

23 hours ago, skyway said:

One of the things that makes high school football interesting is the way in which tactical advantages and disparities in efficiency in execution- things like "hidden yards"- play a role in the outcome of games. Venice has always been a master in these areas since Peacock has been there. In some combination of credit to Venice, criticism of Lakeland, or an indictment of the officiating, a true miracle happened at Bryant Stadium tonight. Venice lost to Lakeland by a final score of 31- 24. That that was the final margin-given what anyone who viewed the game observed, is hilarious. This was a running clock match up. It should have never been merely 31-7 in the 4th. Yet, it was. And then Venice "back-doored" their way to the final margin. There will be people who didn't watch the game who will assume it was kind of a close game. LOL. Credit to  horrifically outmanned Venice team that found a way to make the final margin of defeat seven points.

What issues did you have with the officiating skyway? 

[skyway]

1 hour ago, Jambun82 said:

What issues did you have with the officiating skyway? 

I'm not able to offer much direct criticism, because I've only watched a live, NFHS robo-cam stream one time. It's possible most of the calls were justified. Calls that stood out were: 1) a play in the 2nd quarter where the Venice QB was stopped for a loss, but his helmet came off during the tackle, and the officials awarded a 15-yard facemask penalty and then turned it into a 30-yard penalty for some sort of unsportsmanlike conduct. Very weird for a play that lost yardage to be awarded to a 30-yard gain! 2) A play late in the 4th where the Venice QB awkwardly tossed the ball to the sidelines with no one there and wasn't charged with intentional grounding.  

I've said before that I think the HS rule where offsides is called when a defender is neither offsides when the ball is snapped, nor makes contact with the offense, but is merely in the neutral zone with no snap occurring, is dumb. Venice got Lakeland on that roughly 27 times the last two spring games. 

[Jambun82]

22 hours ago, skyway said:

I'm not able to offer much direct criticism, because I've only watched a live, NFHS robo-cam stream one time. It's possible most of the calls were justified. Calls that stood out were: 1) a play in the 2nd quarter where the Venice QB was stopped for a loss, but his helmet came off during the tackle, and the officials awarded a 15-yard facemask penalty and then turned it into a 30-yard penalty for some sort of unsportsmanlike conduct. Very weird for a play that lost yardage to be awarded to a 30-yard gain! 2) A play late in the 4th where the Venice QB awkwardly tossed the ball to the sidelines with no one there and wasn't charged with intentional grounding.  

I've said before that I think the HS rule where offsides is called when a defender is neither offsides when the ball is snapped, nor makes contact with the offense, but is merely in the neutral zone with no snap occurring, is dumb. Venice got Lakeland on that roughly 27 times the last two spring games. 

I am not sure what you think is unusual about a live-ball 15 yard PF FM penalty, and then a dead-ball UNS Conduct foul, that is the correct enforcement. The intentional grounding or not ends up being a judgment call, and it is important to remember that it it the spring game for the officials as well. A lot of people feel that way about the dead-ball encroachment foul in NFHS rules. 

[VeniceIndianFan]

3 minutes ago, Jambun82 said:

I am not sure what you think is unusual about a live-ball 15 yard PF FM penalty, and then a dead-ball UNS Conduct foul, that is the correct enforcement. The intentional grounding or not ends up being a judgment call, and it is important to remember that it it the spring game for the officials as well. A lot of people feel that way about the dead-ball encroachment foul in NFHS rules. 

Jambun, I have a question regarding unsportsmanlike penalties.

If the ball is dead after a play is over and a player receives a taunting or “unsportsmanlike conduct” penalty during the brief time between the play, is the penalty yardage enforced on the next down, or is the down replayed with the loss of yardage? 

[skyway]

13 hours ago, Jambun82 said:

I am not sure what you think is unusual about a live-ball 15 yard PF FM penalty, and then a dead-ball UNS Conduct foul, that is the correct enforcement. The intentional grounding or not ends up being a judgment call, and it is important to remember that it it the spring game for the officials as well. A lot of people feel that way about the dead-ball encroachment foul in NFHS rules. 

This is the area where I think HS officials can improve the most. The old saying "you can call holding on every play" comes to mind. The best officials don't call a penalty every single time there may be some textbook justification for it.

I'm honestly struggling to recall a time in a college or pro game where there was 30 yards of penalties (non PI in NFL) on a play. Usually, one of the personal foul calls does the trick.  

[Jambun82]

23 hours ago, VeniceIndiansFootball said:

Jambun, I have a question regarding unsportsmanlike penalties.

If the ball is dead after a play is over and a player receives a taunting or “unsportsmanlike conduct” penalty during the brief time between the play, is the penalty yardage enforced on the next down, or is the down replayed with the loss of yardage? 

VeniceIndiansFootball, UNS conduct is always penalized as a dead-ball succeeding spot foul, meaning that the penalty yardage is enforced from the spot that the ball will next be snapped or free-kicked. 

[Jambun82]

9 hours ago, skyway said:

This is the area where I think HS officials can improve the most. The old saying "you can call holding on every play" comes to mind. The best officials don't call a penalty every single time there may be some textbook justification for it.

I'm honestly struggling to recall a time in a college or pro game where there was 30 yards of penalties (non PI in NFL) on a play. Usually, one of the personal foul calls does the trick.  

Skyway there were two separate fouls, and in this circumstance, both fouls can be enforced. One is a live-ball PF, the other a dead-ball UNS conduct. The team that was penalized for the PF must have voiced some sort of objection that the officials deemed a UNS conduct foul, which is always penalized as a dead-ball, succeeding spot foul so that foul is not declined or offset. 

[VeniceIndianFan]

1 hour ago, Jambun82 said:

VeniceIndiansFootball, UNS conduct is always penalized as a dead-ball succeeding spot foul, meaning that the penalty yardage is enforced from the spot that the ball will next be snapped or free-kicked. 

Thank you, Jambun. 

[Perspective]

18 hours ago, Jambun82 said:

Skyway there were two separate fouls, and in this circumstance, both fouls can be enforced. One is a live-ball PF, the other a dead-ball UNS conduct. The team that was penalized for the PF must have voiced some sort of objection that the officials deemed a UNS conduct foul, which is always penalized as a dead-ball, succeeding spot foul so that foul is not declined or offset. 

Jambun, I had to laugh when I read the phrase that the team who got penalized for the PF "must have voiced some sort of objection."  

So, with that in mind, and recognizing that all officials have different tolerance levels, what's the general rule of thumb for when words and/or actions rise to the level of a personal foul?   Clearly, coaches voice their displeasure with calls (and non-calls) all the time without triggering a PF.  What's the trigger?   Curse words?  Volume level?  Continuing beyond a certain point (i.e., after the official looks over and says "that's enough, Coach")? 

Do you/officials tend to give a coach a little more leeway if you/they start having reservations about the call in dispute?

Last, and looking at it from the other side of the issue, what's the most effective way a coach can communicate to an official that he 'respectfully disagrees' with the call that just got made/missed? 

 

[Jambun82]

6 hours ago, Perspective said:

Jambun, I had to laugh when I read the phrase that the team who got penalized for the PF "must have voiced some sort of objection."  

So, with that in mind, and recognizing that all officials have different tolerance levels, what's the general rule of thumb for when words and/or actions rise to the level of a personal foul?   Clearly, coaches voice their displeasure with calls (and non-calls) all the time without triggering a PF.  What's the trigger?   Curse words?  Volume level?  Continuing beyond a certain point (i.e., after the official looks over and says "that's enough, Coach")? 

Do you/officials tend to give a coach a little more leeway if you/they start having reservations about the call in dispute?

Last, and looking at it from the other side of the issue, what's the most effective way a coach can communicate to an official that he 'respectfully disagrees' with the call that just got made/missed? 

 

Perspective, the foul would be an Unsportsmanlike Conduct penalty, not a Personal Foul penalty. Obviously, every official has a different level of tolerance for an objection to a call by a coach or player. The NFHS rules states that a UNS Conduct foul by a non-player includes, but is not limited to, disrespectfully addressing or trying to influence a decision by an official. That is very broad, as you would already know in legalize terms. Certain Coaches reputation procedes them, and the language used by the coach has an effect obviously. Good Head Coaches will instruct their assistant coaches not to voice any objections or complaints to the officials, and a good sideline official will mention to the Head Coach in the pregame that he/she only wants to communicate with the Head Coach. I suppose that the situation comes down to the individual officials tolerance level, with good officials realizing and respecting that Coaches spend all week preparing for a emotional game where circumstances will come up where leeway should be given, and not everything is black and white. It is a fine balancing act.  

[Jambun82]

23 hours ago, VeniceIndiansFootball said:

Thank you, Jambun. 

You're welcome. 

[Perspective]

10 hours ago, Jambun82 said:

Perspective, the foul would be an Unsportsmanlike Conduct penalty, not a Personal Foul penalty. Obviously, every official has a different level of tolerance for an objection to a call by a coach or player. The NFHS rules states that a UNS Conduct foul by a non-player includes, but is not limited to, disrespectfully addressing or trying to influence a decision by an official. That is very broad, as you would already know in legalize terms. Certain Coaches reputation procedes them, and the language used by the coach has an effect obviously. Good Head Coaches will instruct their assistant coaches not to voice any objections or complaints to the officials, and a good sideline official will mention to the Head Coach in the pregame that he/she only wants to communicate with the Head Coach. I suppose that the situation comes down to the individual officials tolerance level, with good officials realizing and respecting that Coaches spend all week preparing for a emotional game where circumstances will come up where leeway should be given, and not everything is black and white. It is a fine balancing act.  

Thanks Jambun (and thanks for the correction on PF vs UNS). 

But, I guess it's like my Momma always told me:  "Officials are like a box of chocolates . . . you never know what you're going to get."  

[Jambun82]

10 hours ago, Perspective said:

Thanks Jambun (and thanks for the correction on PF vs UNS). 

But, I guess it's like my Momma always told me:  "Officials are like a box of chocolates . . . you never know what you're going to get."  

With me you know that you will always get a solid, straight answer that you can take to the bank and exchange for cash! In fact, it is same to assume that most message board posters would agree with the quote "That Jambun82 knows what he is talking about" You're welcome for that Perspective.  

[skyway]

It appears as if Lakeland will make a mockery of the "metro" and "suburban" classes in year 1. They appear to have raided nearly all of the best players in the county, from most all schools. With the team who did not participate in the game which this thread is about:

S/RB Tank Johnson, likely Auburndale's best player.

OT/DT Vass from Bartow

OT Wilson, Lake Gibson's best OL coming out of spring

WR Jamar Taylor (Lakeland legacy), likely lake Gibson's best WR coming out of spring

LB Kelly, Kathleen's best LB

DE King, Kathleen's best DL

WR Dennis, Kathleen's best WR

DB Harrison, Kathleen's QB and best DB

It is said that more may be coming. Cormani McClain, consenus best DB in the country, is very good friends with many Lakeland players. No word on his changing schools...yet.

If this all holds up into Fall, it will be arguably MORE of a roster-raiding case than we've seen happen in Dade/Broward. The team will be dramatically more powerful than the one that blew out Venice in May. And the state championship game in 4S will be every bit the mismatch you'd see with something like Miami Central vs. Merritt Island.

Two points:

1) I find no joy in my team getting so good this way

2) Every other school tries to do this, they just haven't been able to pull it off quite to this degree. Lakeland isn't uniquely guilty in this. They're playing by the same "rules" as everyone else.

[VeniceIndianFan]

39 minutes ago, skyway said:

It appears as if Lakeland will make a mockery of the "metro" and "suburban" classes in year 1. They appear to have raided nearly all of the best players in the county, from most all schools. With the team who did not participate in the game which this thread is about:

S/RB Tank Johnson, likely Auburndale's best player.

OT/DT Vass from Bartow

OT Wilson, Lake Gibson's best OL coming out of spring

WR Jamar Taylor (Lakeland legacy), likely lake Gibson's best WR coming out of spring

LB Kelly, Kathleen's best LB

DE King, Kathleen's best DL

WR Dennis, Kathleen's best WR

DB Harrison, Kathleen's QB and best DB

It is said that more may be coming. Cormani McClain, consenus best DB in the country, is very good friends with many Lakeland players. No word on his changing schools...yet.

If this all holds up into Fall, it will be arguably MORE of a roster-raiding case than we've seen happen in Dade/Broward. The team will be dramatically more powerful than the one that blew out Venice in May. And the state championship game in 4S will be every bit the mismatch you'd see with something like Miami Central vs. Merritt Island.

Two points:

1) I find no joy in my team getting so good this way

2) Every other school tries to do this, they just haven't been able to pull it off quite to this degree. Lakeland isn't uniquely guilty in this. They're playing by the same "rules" as everyone else.

We and Osceola are still standing in your way. Come and get us! 

[skyway]

1 hour ago, VeniceIndiansFootball said:

We and Osceola are still standing in your way. Come and get us! 

It always remains to be seen how team chemistry plays out. But, this appears to be more of a team that should be playing your schedule, while you play ours. Granted, the staff couldn't have known all of these players would show up. Hopefully, there will be a bowl game of sorts after the suburban playoffs.

[VeniceIndianFan]

47 minutes ago, skyway said:

It always remains to be seen how team chemistry plays out. But, this appears to be more of a team that should be playing your schedule, while you play ours. Granted, the staff couldn't have known all of these players would show up. Hopefully, there will be a bowl game of sorts after the suburban playoffs.

Did Lakeland really try to convince St. Frances to come to Bryant Stadium? I heard rumors, but nothing came to fruition of them. It would have been an awesome game; one that Lakeland could have won this season, considering everything regarding their roster. 

[skyway]

1 hour ago, VeniceIndiansFootball said:

Did Lakeland really try to convince St. Frances to come to Bryant Stadium? I heard rumors, but nothing came to fruition of them. It would have been an awesome game; one that Lakeland could have won this season, considering everything regarding their roster. 

I'm a Lakeland grad, from more than 20 years ago, and have compiled stats, articles and game footage over Castle's career. But, I haven't lived in Florida in a really long time and have no real connections in the program now. So, I have no idea. I recommend following polkway for rumors and the like. I can only assess how they'll look once I find out what they have from others. I gather that OOS games are not a priority now. 

[Ray Icaza]

15 hours ago, skyway said:

It appears as if Lakeland will make a mockery of the "metro" and "suburban" classes in year 1. They appear to have raided nearly all of the best players in the county, from most all schools. With the team who did not participate in the game which this thread is about:

S/RB Tank Johnson, likely Auburndale's best player.

OT/DT Vass from Bartow

OT Wilson, Lake Gibson's best OL coming out of spring

WR Jamar Taylor (Lakeland legacy), likely lake Gibson's best WR coming out of spring

LB Kelly, Kathleen's best LB

DE King, Kathleen's best DL

WR Dennis, Kathleen's best WR

DB Harrison, Kathleen's QB and best DB

It is said that more may be coming. Cormani McClain, consenus best DB in the country, is very good friends with many Lakeland players. No word on his changing schools...yet.

If this all holds up into Fall, it will be arguably MORE of a roster-raiding case than we've seen happen in Dade/Broward. The team will be dramatically more powerful than the one that blew out Venice in May. And the state championship game in 4S will be every bit the mismatch you'd see with something like Miami Central vs. Merritt Island.

Two points:

1) I find no joy in my team getting so good this way

2) Every other school tries to do this, they just haven't been able to pull it off quite to this degree. Lakeland isn't uniquely guilty in this. They're playing by the same "rules" as everyone else.

Asking out of curiosity Skyway; why would 2 WR's you listed from an opposing school transfer to Lakeland when they are already pretty stacked at that position.  Same question with Harrison from Kathleen, will he give up the QB status he enjoyed there to back up Pleuss who you won the recruiting battle to get from Ridge?  Usually transfers have their interest ahead of team, so just trying to make sense of the reasoning by some of the listed players.

[skyway]

2 hours ago, Ray Icaza said:

Asking out of curiosity Skyway; why would 2 WR's you listed from an opposing school transfer to Lakeland when they are already pretty stacked at that position.  Same question with Harrison from Kathleen, will he give up the QB status he enjoyed there to back up Pleuss who you won the recruiting battle to get from Ridge?  Usually transfers have their interest ahead of team, so just trying to make sense of the reasoning by some of the listed players.

I won't try to be inside the mind of teenagers, but, good questions! The WRs are surprising given how loaded the position already was, with two guys each with multiple SEC offers and a third guy in the slot that they like. Seems like the new HC at LG is too strict, or demanding (perhaps too good of a coach) so some guys are jumping ship. The Kathleen kids probably all wanted to go together. Harrison is a DB/athlete so I doubt he will play QB.

I gather the new trend is for players to value competing in practice every day against top players. Also with that is the wish to play other top teams. While the 2022 schedule is one of the more challenging schedules we've had, it's probably still too weak for this monster team. They need at least one game against a recruited up "metro" team.