LAKELAND Calls out dade county

[DisabledAccount]

1 hour ago, Ray Icaza said:

Anyone on this forum who questions that the most talent is in Dade has not been paying attention of their success over several decades at the HS level.  The top 4 or 5 teams from that area when they are stacked can not only beat the teams you described which are excellent also, but any other team in Miami or Florida or for that matter only a few nationally could compete with them.   It also doesn't hurt to have a talent pool of almost 3 million residents to cull the best players from and that was proven decades ago by Schellenberger putting the "U" on the map with national championships with mostly local talent.  That said, being in a University town as well as an NFL town puts the sport front and center.  These are also factors for the continued dominance in HS as young kids have "Local Heroes" who have made it out of the tough environment they had to grow up in.  Other communities throughout the state have young kids dealing with that also which produce top tier talent, just not in the numbers and with few success stories on the local level to help them believe it can be done.  When flush Central Rockets, BTW, MNW, Carol City, etc.. are in a league of their own.  There is no denying that.  

Broward County has a case as well and sometimes is better than Dade 

 

But I think that Broward County is the only one that comes close to Dade or beats Dade

[Ray Icaza]

The "Cities" that produced the most NFL players are as follows:  #1 LA - 4 million residents, #2 Chicago - 2.7 million residents, #3 Houston - 2.3 million residents, all cities in the top 5 population wise.  Way down at #44 population wise is Miami with 440,000 residents and they rank #4 on the NFL all-time list.  You can make a case for Broward, but these are stubborn facts.  Today, Miami ranks #1 with 31 active players followed by Fort Lauderdale with 20 active players.  Great teams in Broward, but flush Miami teams would defeat the best Broward teams the vast majority of the time. 

[Nulli Secundus]

22 hours ago, cribboy305 said:

mannn andrew was before i was even born, why not? traz is the mecca & lakeland playing any top 10 dade team would be a good game. i don’t get it

Damn, you make me feel old, lol.  That's certainly a question for Coach Castle as I have not spoken to him since I graduated in '94.  We were excited and looking forward to playing in Miami.  However from what I remember, Lakeland had to eat the costs of bus rentals (football and band), paid for Cooper City to come up to replace canceled game against Miami, then didn't receive any gate from the game played at Virgil Ramage (Lake Gibson) since Bryant Stadium was booked in anticipation of Lakeland being on the road.  Again, that's the short version but I'm pretty sure there's more to it than that.  

[KeemD321]

16 hours ago, FBGUY1989 said:

Prime examples are 

Mainland 2010-2018 lost to Central, Northwestern and Carol City in the regular season and playoffs 

and

Cocoa 2011-2015 lost to Booker T. Washington in the playoffs

 

Cocoa also played Central and USchool in the regular season along with Northwestern in the spring in that time frame. 

[DisabledAccount]

7 hours ago, Ray Icaza said:

The "Cities" that produced the most NFL players are as follows:  #1 LA - 4 million residents, #2 Chicago - 2.7 million residents, #3 Houston - 2.3 million residents, all cities in the top 5 population wise.  Way down at #44 population wise is Miami with 440,000 residents and they rank #4 on the NFL all-time list.  You can make a case for Broward, but these are stubborn facts.  Today, Miami ranks #1 with 31 active players followed by Fort Lauderdale with 20 active players.  Great teams in Broward, but flush Miami teams would defeat the best Broward teams the vast majority of the time. 

Fort Lauderdale isn't even the area in Broward with the best talent 

 

Pembroke Pines, Pompano Beach, Miramar, Davie and Hollywood all probably produce as much if not better talent than Fort Lauderdale area does 

 

People have got to stop always assuming the "major city" in these counties is where the talent is because that's not always the case 

[Ray Icaza]

Not assuming anything as the same case can be made for Carol City, Coral Gables, Homestead, etc..

[DisabledAccount]

2 hours ago, Ray Icaza said:

Not assuming anything as the same case can be made for Carol City, Coral Gables, Homestead, etc..

In the case of Miami I would say Overtown is the talent hotbed of Miami Dade

[FBGUY1989]

6 hours ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

In the case of Miami I would say Overtown is the talent hotbed of 

Booker T. Washington (Overtown)

Miami Edison (Lil Haiti)

Miami Northwestern (Liberty City)

Miami Central (Liberty City)

Miami Carol City (Miami Gardens)

Miami talent is more than just Overtown its Lil Haiti and Liberty City. Miami Gardens is a city so you wouldn't count it with the city of Miami and some might even say Allapattah has talent. The school in that area has fell off long long time ago. Miami Jackson 

[DarterBlue2]

1 hour ago, FBGUY1989 said:

Booker T. Washington (Overtown)

Miami Edison (Lil Haiti)

Miami Northwestern (Liberty City)

Miami Central (Liberty City)

Miami Carol City (Miami Gardens)

Miami talent is more than just Overtown its Lil Haiti and Liberty City. Miami Gardens is a city so you wouldn't count it with the city of Miami and some might even say Allapattah has talent. The school in that area has fell off long long time ago. Miami Jackson 

There is talent in Opa-Locka, too. 

[DisabledAccount]

2 hours ago, FBGUY1989 said:

Booker T. Washington (Overtown)

Miami Edison (Lil Haiti)

Miami Northwestern (Liberty City)

Miami Central (Liberty City)

Miami Carol City (Miami Gardens)

Miami talent is more than just Overtown its Lil Haiti and Liberty City. Miami Gardens is a city so you wouldn't count it with the city of Miami and some might even say Allapattah has talent. The school in that area has fell off long long time ago. Miami Jackson 

To be fair I'm sure the top schools are getting players from all the key areas 

 

I did mean to include Liberty City but I couldn't remember it when I was responding last night 

 

That last part also feeds into my argument, we can't also judge talent by how the team that is known in the area wins (STA being in Fort Lauderdale doesn't mean it's all Fort Lauderdale kids) 

 

There is definitely talent in the area Miami Jackson pulls from, but with open player movement their kids just end up at other top schools so they don't have much to show for themselves

 

I wasn't aware that Little Haiti got the talent to keep up with Liberty City or Overtown talent 

[Ray Icaza]

3 hours ago, FBGUY1989 said:

Booker T. Washington (Overtown)

Miami Edison (Lil Haiti)

Miami Northwestern (Liberty City)

Miami Central (Liberty City)

Miami Carol City (Miami Gardens)

Miami talent is more than just Overtown its Lil Haiti and Liberty City. Miami Gardens is a city so you wouldn't count it with the city of Miami and some might even say Allapattah has talent. The school in that area has fell off long long time ago. Miami Jackson 

Your local knowledge is far superior than mine as the general point I was trying to make is not so much the talent from the city of Miami only, but throughout that whole area.  Numbers are the primary drivers as Broward county population is right at 2 million, while Dade is right at 3 million, nor was my intent to discredit those awesome teams from Broward.  As has been pointed out one can make the case for Broward, but that is why I stuck in those NFL player numbers to show a relative comparison.  I am good at math though and 50% more people translated into 50% more active NFL players so I repeat "THOSE ARE STUBBORN FACTS!!"

[Perspective]

51 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

That last part also feeds into my argument, we can't also judge talent by how the team that is known in the area wins (STA being in Fort Lauderdale doesn't mean it's all Fort Lauderdale kids) 

 

Wait, so IMG's recent success is not a reflection of the amount of talent in Bradenton?   

[DisabledAccount]

1 hour ago, Perspective said:

Wait, so IMG's recent success is not a reflection of the amount of talent in Bradenton?   

Not only that 

 

I will further add IMG had no impact on Manatee turning into a sub average to average program 

 

Hell Braden River had more to do with it than IMG Academy did but mostly it was because after they pushed Joe Killian out the program was no longer seen as the school to go to by those local kids that made them a powerhouse

 

If you look at IMG Academy roster you will see very few players from the area that Manatee pulled from, it's a misconception that people get wrong all the time but the reality is IMG has had very little impact on Florida teams because they pull nationally not locally or regionally

 

I get the comment was supposed to be sarcastic but the reality is pretty cut and dry, a lot of the top programs pull from an entire county not just a select neighborhood or in the case of IMG their recruiting zone is the entire country 

[DisabledAccount]

1 hour ago, Ray Icaza said:

Your local knowledge is far superior than mine as the general point I was trying to make is not so much the talent from the city of Miami only, but throughout that whole area.  Numbers are the primary drivers as Broward county population is right at 2 million, while Dade is right at 3 million, nor was my intent to discredit those awesome teams from Broward.  As has been pointed out one can make the case for Broward, but that is why I stuck in those NFL player numbers to show a relative comparison.  I am good at math though and 50% more people translated into 50% more active NFL players so I repeat "THOSE ARE STUBBORN FACTS!!"

That is very true that having a million more people will give them more 

 

Hell at a 50% rate even per capita would likely still favor Dade county over Broward but I will also point out that some kids playing for Dade schools are actually from Broward county and vice versa so I would like to see if the numbers you are using are using birthplace measurement not just what high school they played for

 

For example last year Miami Central had I believe 5 or 6 defensive staters from Hallandale (Broward county) and if the numbers only used what school they played for all those kids would be charted as a Dade kid when they are actually a Broward kid 

 

Not disagreeing with the overall stance your making but I would like to know more about which data you used and how they came up with said numbers to account for any potential errors that could come up if they half assed their research

[Ray Icaza]

20 hours ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

That is very true that having a million more people will give them more 

 

Hell at a 50% rate even per capita would likely still favor Dade county over Broward but I will also point out that some kids playing for Dade schools are actually from Broward county and vice versa so I would like to see if the numbers you are using are using birthplace measurement not just what high school they played for

 

For example last year Miami Central had I believe 5 or 6 defensive staters from Hallandale (Broward county) and if the numbers only used what school they played for all those kids would be charted as a Dade kid when they are actually a Broward kid 

 

Not disagreeing with the overall stance your making but I would like to know more about which data you used and how they came up with said numbers to account for any potential errors that could come up if they half assed their research

To answer your question, I attempted to google what county produced the most NFL players and could not find a link with that number; it brought up the most cities instead.  In looking at that graph again, the original numbers were from 2015, so I looked again and the latest numbers from 2020 are as follows:  #1 is Miami with 27, #2 is Houston with 21 and tied for 3rd are Ft. Lauderdale/New Orleans with 14.  So not only has the trend continued, but widen in MIAMI? favor. What defines the city, where the kid was born, where he may have transferred in and out of are questions that would require a lot more research that is not worth my time.  And all the sites continually point to Florida, Texas and California as the top 3 producing states.  What do they have in common?  Great year round weather and the largest populations of any states.  With no intent to drift into another disagreement among participants on this board, it seems to strengthen the argument for Suburban vs Metro showing how local POPULATION correlates with the AMOUNT of talent, which along with the open transfer policy contribute to who are the top tier teams. 

[DisabledAccount]

18 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:

To answer your question, I attempted to google what county produced the most NFL players and could not find a link with that number; it brought up the most cities instead.  In looking at that graph again, the original numbers were from 2015, so I looked again and the latest numbers from 2020 are as follows:  #! is Miami with 27, #2 is Houston with 21 and tied for 3rd are Ft. Lauderdale/New Orleans with 14.  So not only has the trend continued, but widen in MIAMI? favor. What defines the city, where the kid was born, where he may have transferred in and out of are questions that would require a lot more research that is not worth my time.  And all the sites continually point to Florida, Texas and California as the top 3 producing states.  What do they have in common?  Great year round weather and the largest populations of any states.  With no intent to drift into another disagreement among participants on this board, it seems to strengthen the argument for Suburban vs Metro showing how local POPULATION correlates with the AMOUNT of talent, which along with the open transfer policy contribute to who are the top tier teams. 

This is something I agree with 1000% 

 

This is literally copy and paste the argument I give to people who think separating privates would solve the issue better than the metro/suburban thing as has been pointed out the larger the counties the more talent they pull from especially in light of the open transfer policy which has basically allowed some teams to pull from an entire county for their talent instead of a designated school zone or school enrollment numbers 

[VeniceIndianFan]

2 hours ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

This is something I agree with 1000% 

 

This is literally copy and paste the argument I give to people who think separating privates would solve the issue better than the metro/suburban thing as has been pointed out the larger the counties the more talent they pull from especially in light of the open transfer policy which has basically allowed some teams to pull from an entire county for their talent instead of a designated school zone or school enrollment numbers 

I never understood all the hatred and fear over the new metro/suburban split. Unlike the old RPI system, this one proactively acknowledges that there is a problem and at least tries to do something to address and (hopefully) fix it. It should level the playing field an immensely. The issue was never private vs public, it’s metro + suburban because teams in metro areas have access to much higher population and thus have a larger pool of kids to draw from.

An example: I think it would be fair to say that if TCA or Bolles (both private schools,) had to compete with someone like Miami Central or MNW (both public,) in the playoffs, they would rip their hair out in frustration. No disrespect or hate to either of those programs, as they are some of the most sublime in the state, but my previous example illustrates the disparity between a place like Miami-Dade and some more rural areas in North Florida. The talent just is not comparable. Those Miami kids are some of the fastest in not only the state, but perhaps the country as well. They would dance circles around some of the North Florida schools. Again, no hatred, no disrespect, just facts that some public schools, especially those in South Florida, are just stronger than some private schools. This alone should prove that the metro + suburban plan is a good start to addressing the competitive imbalance issue. 

I really like the new metro suburban plan. Let’s see if it really can change the culture of schools that have been having their talent plundered by nearby powerhouses for years and allow them to gain some sort of competitive foothold and begin to win. Only time will tell!

[FBGUY1989]

9 hours ago, DarterBlue2 said:

There is talent in Opa-Locka, too. 

Most definitely but I was listing the areas with the schools it feeds into. Hialeah-Miami Lakes and North Miami aren't good.

[cribboy305]

4 hours ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

That is very true that having a million more people will give them more 

 

Hell at a 50% rate even per capita would likely still favor Dade county over Broward but I will also point out that some kids playing for Dade schools are actually from Broward county and vice versa so I would like to see if the numbers you are using are using birthplace measurement not just what high school they played for

 

For example last year Miami Central had I believe 5 or 6 defensive staters from Hallandale (Broward county) and if the numbers only used what school they played for all those kids would be charted as a Dade kid when they are actually a Broward kid 

 

Not disagreeing with the overall stance your making but I would like to know more about which data you used and how they came up with said numbers to account for any potential errors that could come up if they half assed their research

you are on point in some areas but you dont got all the facts, majority of miami’s nfl talent is from miami without a doubt. barely any are from broward, out of those 5 kids from hallandale 4 are from dade. they just played at hallandale which is right by carol city. and another false statement is the hotbed is in overtown. no sir, miami talent is very spread out. from downsouth to miami gardens its pretty concentrated. if you had to name an outlier it would definitely be liberty city cause it feeds northwestern & central as well as edison & booker t. overtown got talent but not like it used to cause of gentrification. most that talent went down south and back to the city. little haiti is not a hotbed either. 1. liberty city 2. miami gardens 3. opalocka 3. overtown 4. down south (goulds,perrine, homestead) 

[FBGUY1989]

Lil Haiti has talent but Edison isn't on the level of Central and Northwestern. Edison beat Carol City and Booker T. Washington 2021 season. This marked the first time besting both I believe so with Luke being there head coach makes the future great.

Allapattah has talent but not much. That area used to be predominantly black, then mixed now predominantly Hispanic. Jackson is now 70% Hispanic and boundaries changed. Those that remember the old days of Soul Bowl between Jackson and Northwestern easily 10,000 in attendance or more a game every year.

St. Thomas is located in Fort. Lauderdale but it's a private school. St. Thomas grabs its talent from Dillard, Boyd Anderson, Stranahan, Fort Lauderdale, Blanche Ely, and Deerfield Beach. Probably others but in proximity to St. Thomas these are who I'm guessing on. Also St. Thomas is like Columbus in terms of its location. Columbus is down south so they can't grab the kids at the so so to powerhouse schools. Columbus grabs its talent from Coral Gables, Killian, Palmetto, Southridge, Homestead and South Dade.

[FBGUY1989]

51 minutes ago, VeniceIndiansFootball said:

I never understood all the hatred and fear over the new metro/suburban split. Unlike the old RPI system, this one proactively acknowledges that there is a problem and at least tries to do something to address and (hopefully) fix it. It should level the playing field an immensely. The issue was never private vs public, it’s metro + suburban because teams in metro areas have access to much higher population and thus have a larger pool of kids to draw from.

An example: I think it would be fair to say that if TCA or Bolles (both private schools,) had to compete with someone like Miami Central or MNW (both public,) in the playoffs, they would rip their hair out in frustration. No disrespect or hate to either of those programs, as they are some of the most sublime in the state, but my previous example illustrates the disparity between a place like Miami-Dade and some more rural areas in North Florida. The talent just is not comparable. Those Miami kids are some of the fastest in not only the state, but perhaps the country as well. They would dance circles around some of the North Florida schools. Again, no hatred, no disrespect, just facts that some public schools, especially those in South Florida, are just stronger than some private schools. This alone should prove that the metro + suburban plan is a good start to addressing the competitive imbalance issue. 

I really like the new metro suburban plan. Let’s see if it really can change the culture of schools that have been having their talent plundered by nearby powerhouses for years and allow them to gain some sort of competitive foothold and begin to win. Only time will tell!

I don't agree because if your a private school you should be able to complete and beat the best of the best. Look at St. Thomas and you see Jesuit best Northwestern in 2021 which I wasn't expecting that. Yes Dade schools are on another level but I feel like they are being penalized in this new system.

[FBGUY1989]

6 minutes ago, cribboy305 said:

you are on point in some areas but you dont got all the facts, majority of miami’s nfl talent is from miami without a doubt. barely any are from broward, out of those 5 kids from hallandale 4 are from dade. they just played at hallandale which is right by carol city. and another false statement is the hotbed is in overtown. no sir, miami talent is very spread out. from downsouth to miami gardens its pretty concentrated. if you had to name an outlier it would definitely be liberty city cause it feeds northwestern & central as well as edison & booker t. overtown got talent but not like it used to cause of gentrification. most that talent went down south and back to the city. little haiti is not a hotbed either. 1. liberty city 2. miami gardens 3. opalocka 3. overtown 4. down south (goulds,perrine, homestead) 

You right about Down South people forget them. 

Coconut Grove/Coral Gables 

Perrine

Richmond Heights 

Goulds

Naranja

Homestead 

Florida City

 

[VeniceIndianFan]

14 minutes ago, FBGUY1989 said:

I don't agree because if your a private school you should be able to complete and beat the best of the best. Look at St. Thomas and you see Jesuit best Northwestern in 2021 which I wasn't expecting that. Yes Dade schools are on another level but I feel like they are being penalized in this new system.

But if the private school in question is located in a more rural area, they won’t have the massive population of kids to draw from. It’s a lot more concentrated to one area than Miami-Dade. Being a private school isn’t everything; you need talent, too, and as far as that goes, no one beats Miami. It’s a talent factory down there. 

[cribboy305]

1 hour ago, FBGUY1989 said:

You right about Down South people forget them. 

Coconut Grove/Coral Gables 

Perrine

Richmond Heights 

Goulds

Naranja

Homestead 

Florida City

 

cant forget bout florida city! they got national championship back in pop warner. dade county top passer right out of exit1 (torey morrison) played for homestead booker t. 

[Ray Icaza]

5 hours ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

This is something I agree with 1000% 

 

This is literally copy and paste the argument I give to people who think separating privates would solve the issue better than the metro/suburban thing as has been pointed out the larger the counties the more talent they pull from especially in light of the open transfer policy which has basically allowed some teams to pull from an entire county for their talent instead of a designated school zone or school enrollment numbers 

Just out of curiosity, is that why the top privates are located almost exclusively in Metro areas?  Dade, Broward, Duval, Hillsborough.