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Comparison of 6 teams in 3S


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4 minutes ago, Dan in Daytona said:

'Bo, it's the world we live in, where everyone has a strong opinion on most everything from sports to family, no right or wrong answers. Just some guys pointing differences. It's all good. Peace   

Oh I wasn't really mad at you my man, I was trying to point out the inconsistency of what nolebull is arguing about

 

I get some people feel this waters down the classifications but to say these aren't state championships because the format used to determine classifications is different is avoiding the real issue in place that needed to be corrected 

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8 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:

It isn't leaving them out, they still have their championships it is only adding a NEW category to reflect the NEW landscape created by allowing transfers to occur.  It started in 2011 and got stamped the law of the land in 2016.  The data is staring us in the face and anyone that can't see who is winning 80-90% of those championships since this change is as Perspective would put it in the Bruce Springsteen song "BLINDED BY THE LIGHT".

I'm not a traditionalist by nature, and agreeing with Nolebull is rare to say the least, it's just the fact of not counting the large population centers of the state when crowning a state champion seems hollow when this majority wasn't defeated on the field of play.    #MainlandBucForEver  

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4 minutes ago, Perspective said:

Assuming things stay this way for a while, how long (if ever) before we see the 4M winner playing the 4S winner, the 3M champ playing the 3S champ, and so on, for a "true" state title winner in each of the four classifications?

We're on the same wavelength with that thought. I sense a compromise.....

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8 minutes ago, Perspective said:

Assuming things stay this way for a while, how long (if ever) before we see the 4M winner playing the 4S winner, the 3M champ playing the 3S champ, and so on, for a "true" state title winner in each of the four classifications?

It could be considered at some point which would have it mimic the CA system of open bowl series of whatever they call it 

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27 minutes ago, Perspective said:

Assuming things stay this way for a while, how long (if ever) before we see the 4M winner playing the 4S winner, the 3M champ playing the 3S champ, and so on, for a "true" state title winner in each of the four classifications?

This is much like what Little League Baseball did a generation ago. Since its World Series is held here annually, at times no American team made the championship final. From a U.S. fan perspective this wasn't a good thing. So they changed the rules and the format. All American teams were put in one pool and all foreign teams in another, thus guaranteeing a US finalist . The pool winners then played for the World Series Championship in Williamsport, Pennsylvania.   

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3 minutes ago, Dan in Daytona said:

I'm not a traditionalist by nature, and agreeing with Nolebull is rare to say the least, it's just the fact of not counting the large population centers of the state when crowning a state champion seems hollow when this majority wasn't defeated on the field of play.    #MainlandBucForEver  

Readily will admit that I am a contrarian by nature so your claim of no right or wrong answers I cannot agree with as I believe the opposite is true.  Facts, logic and critical reasoning can easily win me to the other side but outside of an argument bolstered by that I guess we can continue to respectfully disagree.  Hopefully you can agree with this argument as I will make a 100% predicition that ALL 4 METRO TITLES WILL BE WON BY METRO TEAMS!  Thus your argument of not counting large population centers of the state when crowning state champions is what seems HOLLOW!

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29 minutes ago, Perspective said:

Assuming things stay this way for a while, how long (if ever) before we see the 4M winner playing the 4S winner, the 3M champ playing the 3S champ, and so on, for a "true" state title winner in each of the four classifications?

Hopefully will happen as quickly as when 4M plays 1M and 2M plays 3M with those winners playing for a "TRUE" state title winner. :lol:

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4 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:

Readily will admit that I am a contrarian by nature so your claim of no right or wrong answers I cannot agree with as I believe the opposite is true.  Facts, logic and critical reasoning can easily win me to the other side but outside of an argument bolstered by that I guess we can continue to respectfully disagree.  Hopefully you can agree with this argument as I will make a 100% predicition that ALL 4 METRO TITLES WILL BE WON BY METRO TEAMS!  Thus your argument of not counting large population centers of the state when crowning state champions is what seems HOLLOW!

I could also make the argument that 4S may actually be a better class than 4M so who's to say all the metro divisions are actually the best team

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3 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:

Readily will admit that I am a contrarian by nature so your claim of no right or wrong answers I cannot agree with as I believe the opposite is true.  Facts, logic and critical reasoning can easily win me to the other side but outside of an argument bolstered by that I guess we can continue to respectfully disagree.  Hopefully you can agree with this argument as I will make a 100% predicition that ALL 4 METRO TITLES WILL BE WON BY METRO TEAMS!  Thus your argument of not counting large population centers of the state when crowning state champions is what seems HOLLOW!

Like myself you like to argue. Also we both can logically listen to persuasive reasoning and change our minds. I've found this is the exception and not the norm. Follow me over to the national high school football off-topic board for a rude awakening. Facts, lies, and innuendo are equal in the eyes of deniers.....live and learn 

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11 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

I could also make the argument that 4S may actually be a better class than 4M so who's to say all the metro divisions are actually the best team

That argument in my view is a one off.  It might be the case on rare occasions but not the norm.  I do believe Metro champions would routinely beat Suburban champions, which strictly by the numbers they should.

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24 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

I could also make the argument that 4S may actually be a better class than 4M so who's to say all the metro divisions are actually the best team

I think that has been pretty obvious for years when not counting the Orlando area metro schools. Jacksonville, Tampa, and S. Florida metro's (-STA) aren't as good as their cities smaller schools.

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5 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:

That argument in my view is a one off.  It might be the case on rare occasions but not the norm.  I do believe Metro champions would routinely beat Suburban champions, which strictly by the numbers they should.

My point is that just because metros have enough of an advantage that there needed to be a change in how classifications are broken down it doesn't mean they are always the best team, so to discredit teams in the suburban divisions as being weak like nolebull was trying to do is incredibly dishonest

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5 minutes ago, Dan in Daytona said:

I think that has been pretty obvious for years when not counting the Orlando area metro schools. Jacksonville, Tampa, and S. Florida metros (-STA) ain't as good as their cities smaller schools.

SFL and Orlando have a lot of very good teams in the higher classifications I agree 

 

Tampa I guess you can say that but you also have teams like armwood, Tampa Bay Tech, Jesuit, etc in larger classifications

 

Jacksonville is clearly favoring smaller classes with TCA and Bolles

 

 

 

But my point was more that it's no guarantee that the metro is the "best" team so immediately writing off suburban as a weaker class because change was needed because of the incompetent decisions made at the state level that created this mess is shitting on how many good teams will be in the suburban divisions that probably could have competed or won state titles had the transfer situation not turned into a compete wild west like it did 

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4 hours ago, nolebull813 said:

Just know now that these aren’t really state titles anymore. They are area titles. You aren’t playing the best from the state. 
 

This change was designed to make inferior teams feel better about themselves that they don’t have to compete with the best. 
 

Hell just calling it the Suburban class takes away the “state title” term. It’s the suburban title. That’s it 

I certainly dislike the way the FHSAA has done things. But, if a Miami Central can beat Baker and Merrit island and call that a state title, than whoever wins 3S can claim one, too. I'd agree that both are very watered down and shouldn't be as significant as they are. But, if you're not going to take titles away from a Miami Central, than you can't take one away from the 3S, etc, winner.

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1 minute ago, skyway said:

I certainly dislike the way the FHSAA has done things. But, if a Miami Central can beat Baker and Merrit island and call that a state title, than whoever wins 3S can claim one, too. I'd agree that both are very watered down and shouldn't be as significant as they are. But, if you're not going to take titles away from a Miami Central, than you can't take one away from the 3S, etc, winner.

Very interesting point there 

 

But nolebull thinks that student enrollment was the only real way to determine a classification but in reality if state should be best of the best than Miami Central shouldn't be allowed to claim any state title if they didn't play a metro school to win it in the finals (it's literally the same logic @nolebull813  since the entire argument is that metros as so far above suburban teams who are weak right?) 

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13 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

SFL and Orlando have a lot of very good teams in the higher classifications I agree 

 

Tampa I guess you can say that but you also have teams like armwood, Tampa Bay Tech, Jesuit, etc in larger classifications

 

Jacksonville is clearly favoring smaller classes with TCA and Bolles

 

 

 

But my point was more that it's no guarantee that the metro is the "best" team so immediately writing off suburban as a weaker class because change was needed because of the incompetent decisions made at the state level that created this mess is shitting on how many good teams will be in the suburban divisions that probably could have competed or won state titles had the transfer situation not turned into a compete wild west like it did 

There's definitely no guarantee that the metro champ is the best in that class size. Venice (suburban) blew out a couple of "metro" schools in the last playoffs. Lakeland has a long history of beating many "metro" schools, with three consecutive decisive wins over such schools in their last title year alone. Pine Forest very nearly knocked off Jesuit last year. I could go on.

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4 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

 

 

 

 

But my point was more that it's no guarantee that the metro is the "best" team so immediately writing off suburban as a weaker class because change was needed because of the incompetent decisions made at the state level that created this mess is shitting on how many good teams will be in the suburban divisions that probably could have competed or won state titles had the transfer situation not turned into a compete wild west like it did 

Lakeland has been the suburban gold standard for decades. They take a backseat to no one. To a lesser degree my hometown public, until very recently could play or beat anyone in the state OUTSIDE DADE. Cocoa still kicks big ass for a 1200 student public. Madison County is similar. I'm not downgrading the suburban categories. To be the best you have to beat the best (IMO).   

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1 minute ago, Dan in Daytona said:

Lakeland has been the suburban gold standard for decades. They take a backseat to no one. To a lesser degree my hometown public, until very recently could play or beat anyone in the state OUTSIDE DADE. Cocoa still kicks big ass for a 1200 student public. Madison County is similar. I'm not downgrading the suburban categories. To be the best you have to beat the best (IMO).   

And if the teams played by the same rules I would agree 

 

By that logic should we ignore the players who used steroids in pro baseball (same general logic as having metro teams who can pull from a larger talent pool in what is supposed to be a level competitive balance) and just hand them awards for having an unfair competitive advantage?

 

It's not about competition but that's what some are trying to make this about, it's about the fact that metro teams by the current definition of state law are allowed to pull kids from a city of 1m+ people and share a classification with teams pulling from maybe 50k people

 

That's a significant problem that can't be ignored 

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3 minutes ago, skyway said:

We need an "open" division of sorts, where the major powers can opt in to win the really big prize. Then, below that division, they can do as they please.

 

Just now, Nulli Secundus said:

Great idea!  That's why it won't happen.

 

I believe this was once on the table but didn't get past the advisory committee, they could adopt the CA system but I think the state law may actually prevent Florida from doing it, I can't remember exactly how but maybe @Joshua Wilsoncan fill in those details 

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