FHSAA Power Rankings

[smashmouth80]

When do they start coming out? And what exactly is the criteria being used?

[DarterBlue2]

1 hour ago, smashmouth80 said:

When do they start coming out? And what exactly is the criteria being used?

I believe that they are using MaxPreps rankings this year. RPI has gone by the wayside. 

[Dr. D]

The FHSAA is using the "modified" MaxPreps rankings, which uses MaxPreps' proprietary formula while eliminating the margin of victory component.  According to MaxPreps, "the system utilizes the huge number of game results stored in the MaxPreps database.  Generally, the more a team wins, the higher the ranking.  However, the system takes into account quality wins (against other highly ranked opponents) and strength of schedule".  At present, the FHSAA website just says "check back later" for rankings.  The first FPI rankings came out last year after week 5 games, so I personally would expect the first FHSAA Power Rankings to be out in the next week or two.

 

 

[gatorman-uf]

Until the proprietary formula because public, zero trust from me.
Additionally, as I note in another, the MaxPreps ranking had the University School in the top 30 when they play zero or one game. I wondering how much MaxPreps' formula gives credit to previously successful years rather than currently successful.

[smashmouth80]

15 hours ago, Dr. D said:

The FHSAA is using the "modified" MaxPreps rankings, which uses MaxPreps' proprietary formula while eliminating the margin of victory component.  According to MaxPreps, "the system utilizes the huge number of game results stored in the MaxPreps database.  Generally, the more a team wins, the higher the ranking.  However, the system takes into account quality wins (against other highly ranked opponents) and strength of schedule".  At present, the FHSAA website just says "check back later" for rankings.  The first FPI rankings came out last year after week 5 games, so I personally would expect the first FHSAA Power Rankings to be out in the next week or two.

 

 

So no one really knows what formula Maxpreps uses? There is no way to double check them? 

[Ray Icaza]

1 hour ago, smashmouth80 said:

So no one really knows what formula Maxpreps uses? There is no way to double check them? 

That is the bottom line.

[Steinbrenner Warriors]

I spoke yesterday with the head of football at the FHSAA (Robbie Lindeman) through email.

He confirmed the following:

The rankings are now a power ranking and the release dates are as follows.

First Ranking Release Date: Tuesday, September 27, 2022

Second Ranking Release Date: Tuesday, October 4, 2022

Third Ranking Release Date: Tuesday, October 11, 2022

Fourth Ranking Release Date: Tuesday, October 18, 2022

Fifth Ranking Release Date: Tuesday, October 25, 2022

Sixth Ranking Release Date: Tuesday, November 1, 2022

Last Ranking Release Date for Regional Seeding: Saturday, November 5, 2022

 

I expressed concern about their not being a public formula being used for the rankings for us to have the opportunity to double check the numbers as there were multiple mistakes made in the RPI input over the past couple years. Those mistakes being small or large mistakes are still mistakes and can lead to a team being ousted who shouldn't be. 

I was told it is a modified ranking that doesn't take into account the point spread. I am curious if the reason for keeping private are... Doesn't make sense to me. We are being ranked without really knowing how exactly (obviously you win you are in...but would be lovely to know the criteria).

[badbird]

23 minutes ago, Steinbrenner Warriors said:

I spoke yesterday with the head of football at the FHSAA (Robbie Lindeman) through email.

He confirmed the following:

The rankings are now a power ranking and the release dates are as follows.

First Ranking Release Date: Tuesday, September 27, 2022

Second Ranking Release Date: Tuesday, October 4, 2022

Third Ranking Release Date: Tuesday, October 11, 2022

Fourth Ranking Release Date: Tuesday, October 18, 2022

Fifth Ranking Release Date: Tuesday, October 25, 2022

Sixth Ranking Release Date: Tuesday, November 1, 2022

Last Ranking Release Date for Regional Seeding: Saturday, November 5, 2022

 

I expressed concern about their not being a public formula being used for the rankings for us to have the opportunity to double check the numbers as there were multiple mistakes made in the RPI input over the past couple years. Those mistakes being small or large mistakes are still mistakes and can lead to a team being ousted who shouldn't be. 

I was told it is a modified ranking that doesn't take into account the point spread. I am curious if the reason for keeping private are... Doesn't make sense to me. We are being ranked without really knowing how exactly (obviously you win you are in...but would be lovely to know the criteria).

I agree.  It's some shady shit.  

[DisabledAccount]

There was nothing wrong with the RPI that was used last year 

 

The problems that arise from it were caused by the crappy region setups they used 

 

So many regions that were too small caused bad teams to get in, I've said for years that 1A should have been changed to 2 regions instead of 4 especially since they don't even have districts

 

Why do they think that is too difficult for them to understand?

[Dr. D]

1 hour ago, Steinbrenner Warriors said:

I spoke yesterday with the head of football at the FHSAA (Robbie Lindeman) through email.

He confirmed the following:

The rankings are now a power ranking and the release dates are as follows.

First Ranking Release Date: Tuesday, September 27, 2022

Second Ranking Release Date: Tuesday, October 4, 2022

Third Ranking Release Date: Tuesday, October 11, 2022

Fourth Ranking Release Date: Tuesday, October 18, 2022

Fifth Ranking Release Date: Tuesday, October 25, 2022

Sixth Ranking Release Date: Tuesday, November 1, 2022

Last Ranking Release Date for Regional Seeding: Saturday, November 5, 2022

 

I expressed concern about their not being a public formula being used for the rankings for us to have the opportunity to double check the numbers as there were multiple mistakes made in the RPI input over the past couple years. Those mistakes being small or large mistakes are still mistakes and can lead to a team being ousted who shouldn't be. 

I was told it is a modified ranking that doesn't take into account the point spread. I am curious if the reason for keeping private are... Doesn't make sense to me. We are being ranked without really knowing how exactly (obviously you win you are in...but would be lovely to know the criteria).

This is as much as MaxPreps is willing to tell the public.  Maybe the FHSAA knows more details but is not letting on.  Note the last paragraph on eliminating the margin of difference.  Good luck figuring this out........  How the MaxPreps football rankings work - MaxPreps

[Nulli Secundus]

1 hour ago, Dr. D said:

This is as much as MaxPreps is willing to tell the public.  Maybe the FHSAA knows more details but is not letting on.  Note the last paragraph on eliminating the margin of difference.  Good luck figuring this out........  How the MaxPreps football rankings work - MaxPreps

 

2 hours ago, badbird said:

I agree.  It's some shady shit.  

 

2 hours ago, Steinbrenner Warriors said:

I spoke yesterday with the head of football at the FHSAA (Robbie Lindeman) through email.

He confirmed the following:

The rankings are now a power ranking and the release dates are as follows.

First Ranking Release Date: Tuesday, September 27, 2022

Second Ranking Release Date: Tuesday, October 4, 2022

Third Ranking Release Date: Tuesday, October 11, 2022

Fourth Ranking Release Date: Tuesday, October 18, 2022

Fifth Ranking Release Date: Tuesday, October 25, 2022

Sixth Ranking Release Date: Tuesday, November 1, 2022

Last Ranking Release Date for Regional Seeding: Saturday, November 5, 2022

 

I expressed concern about their not being a public formula being used for the rankings for us to have the opportunity to double check the numbers as there were multiple mistakes made in the RPI input over the past couple years. Those mistakes being small or large mistakes are still mistakes and can lead to a team being ousted who shouldn't be. 

I was told it is a modified ranking that doesn't take into account the point spread. I am curious if the reason for keeping private are... Doesn't make sense to me. We are being ranked without really knowing how exactly (obviously you win you are in...but would be lovely to know the criteria).

As long as Max is cutting those checks, you won't know and the FHSAA is perfectly fine with that arrangement.

[Dr. D]

True, and I'd bet there is a non-disclosure clause in the contract between MaxPreps and the FHSAA, so we'll never know the specifics of how the rankings work.  But other FHSAA sports have been using MaxPreps rankings for a while, so the FHSAA probably assumes everyone will be sheep and accept the system without protest.  

[Floridaatlantic1]

I am ready to go back to district champ and runner up

[DisabledAccount]

31 minutes ago, Floridaatlantic1 said:

I am ready to go back to district champ and runner up

Why? To reward the second best team in a crappy 3 team district

 

Not every district deserves 2 teams and whenever we had that system there WAS NO SEEDING WHICH IS ANOTHER STUPID ASPECT OF THE OLD SYSTEM

 

 

[DisabledAccount]

I can tell you right now looking at my own team district the second place team is not a top 8 team in the region and doesn't deserve a playoff spot even if it was my team

 

If Columbia doesn't beat all 3 district opponents then they don't deserve to be in the playoffs 

 

Getting rid of automatic qualifications for runner ups and having a seeded playoffs are both massive improvements

[Ray Icaza]

6 hours ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

I can tell you right now looking at my own team district the second place team is not a top 8 team in the region and doesn't deserve a playoff spot even if it was my team

 

If Columbia doesn't beat all 3 district opponents then they don't deserve to be in the playoffs 

 

Getting rid of automatic qualifications for runner ups and having a seeded playoffs are both massive improvements

I was okay with the top two in each district getting in, but you are pointing out the obvious that more weak teams get in under that formula than seeding so now I am okay with seeding.  But some are separated by such small margins I don't like it one bit to determine home field with the exception of each district champ getting to host the first game.  After that I feel it should change to odd number districts host on odd number years then reverse for even numbered districts on even numbered years.  That eliminates the perception of shenanigans favoring certain teams continually getting home field.

[DisabledAccount]

1 hour ago, Ray Icaza said:

I was okay with the top two in each district getting in, but you are pointing out the obvious that more weak teams get in under that formula than seeding so now I am okay with seeding.  But some are separated by such small margins I don't like it one bit to determine home field with the exception of each district champ getting to host the first game.  After that I feel it should change to odd number districts host on odd number years then reverse for even numbered districts on even numbered years.  That eliminates the perception of shenanigans favoring certain teams continually getting home field.

Having that enabled a system where an undefeated team or 1 loss team had to travel to a sub .500 district champ which all but proved how little the regular season actually meant 

 

At that point teams may as well throw non conference games and lose intentionally because they gain ABSOLUTELY NOTHING by trying to win any non district game 

[Ray Icaza]

3 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Having that enabled a system where an undefeated team or 1 loss team had to travel to a sub .500 district champ which all but proved how little the regular season actually meant 

 

At that point teams may as well throw non conference games and lose intentionally because they gain ABSOLUTELY NOTHING by trying to win any non district game 

I would think the superior team would gladly travel to the inferior team to beat them in front of their fans rather than the other way around.  If this did happen, remember it is every other year.   In addition, I imagine you agree with most of the posters questioning the reliability of the MaxPrep computer especially when the difference is a couple hundreds of a point swinging the home field advantage to a team that may be your equal or even inferior.  I am good with seeding teams beyond district champs to represent each region.

[DisabledAccount]

26 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:

I would think the superior team would gladly travel to the inferior team to beat them in front of their fans rather than the other way around.  If this did happen, remember it is every other year.   In addition, I imagine you agree with most of the posters questioning the reliability of the MaxPrep computer especially when the difference is a couple hundreds of a point swinging the home field advantage to a team that may be your equal or even inferior.  I am good with seeding teams beyond district champs to represent each region.

I don't trust MaxPreps because it's influenced by last season and teams should be judged on the season in question

 

I feel home field should be earned not handed and I will never support a system that makes any regular season game meaningless, I like the idea that my team in a non conference game could cost someone else a trip to the playoffs because I know any team out there would be glad to do it to my school If the roles were reversed

 

I would have liked to seen the RPI system in place with the metro suburban change to see if it did it's job, in fact I wish RPI was in place for every sport as MaxPreps rankings are garbage

[DisabledAccount]

28 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:

I would think the superior team would gladly travel to the inferior team to beat them in front of their fans rather than the other way around.  If this did happen, remember it is every other year.   In addition, I imagine you agree with most of the posters questioning the reliability of the MaxPrep computer especially when the difference is a couple hundreds of a point swinging the home field advantage to a team that may be your equal or even inferior.  I am good with seeding teams beyond district champs to represent each region.

If my team is undefeated or one loss I would want them hosting every round because then my school would get big time gate since our fans don't show up that well during the regular season so every road playoff game is less money into the program that is trying to keep up with other schools facilities

 

 

[Floridaatlantic1]

How come the fhsaa cant use the formulae they had before where it was a third win and opponents record etc.  instead no one know what the heck is being judged by maxoreeos because formula protected by copyright. What a joke. 

[gatorman-uf]

3 minutes ago, Floridaatlantic1 said:

How come the fhsaa cant use the formulae they had before where it was a third win and opponents record etc.  instead no one know what the heck is being judged by maxoreeos because formula protected by copyright. What a joke. 

It requires the FHSAA to do work. I know the amount of hours I put in to make the RPI for one region for one classification to work. It was a lot of set up and then probably an hour to 2 hours hunting down scores from twitter/score stream/maxpreps, etc. each week (don't know how Lax and Pinkos do/did it) Even when I would double and triple check everything, I still had small mess ups.

I would also contend that the FHSAA was essentially using the MaxPreps system last year, because I could never get the numbers to match once out of state games became part of the equation. Additionally, they were not helpful in trying to resolve the problem (unlike when Frank Beasley was doing it, he was A LOT of help).

My belief (based on ABSOLUTELY nothing) is probably the FHSAA/MaxPreps doesn't want people to know that the previous years rankings are used in the system or margin of victory or something else that we would find objectionable. When I read the post on MaxPreps site that some one above posted, it basically sounds a lot like Margin of Victory is a primary source of rankings. To undue that might cause problems. Additionally, not every state handles games the same or requires schools to post to MaxPreps. Kickoff Classics, Spring Games, JV Games all somehow make it to the varsity schedule and get counted. Since there is no human looking at the schedule in real time and the FHSAA doesn't control it, there is little they can do to fix it. 
I promise, there is going to be some team who figures out to game the situation and ends up as a higher seed or even qualifying because of it.

[Ray Icaza]

9 hours ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

If my team is undefeated or one loss I would want them hosting every round because then my school would get big time gate since our fans don't show up that well during the regular season so every road playoff game is less money into the program that is trying to keep up with other schools facilities

 

 

RPI or MaxPreps are both mathematical formulas that aren't perfect.  I have seen teams with a higher RPI than that of a team that beat them thus raising questions of validity.  I thought gate receipts for playoffs was split between the two participating teams though I am not a rule expert and maybe someone can confirm or refute this.  If that is the case your financial angle is non-existent.  

[badbird]

19 hours ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Getting rid of automatic qualifications for runner ups and having a seeded playoffs are both massive improvements

I agree with this but the way they come up with the seeding sucks and they won't even tell you how they came up with it.  Shady as F@@@.

[badbird]

1 hour ago, Ray Icaza said:

RPI or MaxPreps are both mathematical formulas that aren't perfect.  I have seen teams with a higher RPI than that of a team that beat them thus raising questions of validity.  I thought gate receipts for playoffs was split between the two participating teams though I am not a rule expert and maybe someone can confirm or refute this.  If that is the case your financial angle is non-existent.  

Fhsaa gets 15% of the gross

Home team gets 55% of net profit

Visiting team gets 45% of net profit