Competitive balance?

[DarterBlue2]

1 minute ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Yes that's exactly what I'm saying

 

And as a result of these cheaters you take any chance to try and force these teams together to protect the overall competitive balance of the state 

 

The same people who whine about blowouts in the state finals are not realizing this system is trying to address it 

The system won't really address it. Just for those labelled suburban. But what about Tampa Bay, Orlando and Jacksonville or Palm Beach County for that matter. They will still be in essentially the same position they were in. 

Apopka is not a school that aggressively recruits. But it gets little help from the redone system. Yes, currently Columbus is the only real South Florida threat. But if some of the large publics in Dade and Broward decide to do a Miami Central, then we will still be disadvantaged.

I am not going to whine any further on this. But in my opinion only making kids that transfer sit a year unless it can be proven beyond reasonable doubt that there is a real reason for the transfer that is not sports related (such as the death of a custodian, a divorce, and the like) will make the system fairer. 

[DisabledAccount]

4 hours ago, nolebull813 said:

No what I’m saying is Live Oak needs to get better. Teams in Miami are being punished for some of them being good and rural North FL team are being rewarded for mediocrity.  
 

the point is you don’t separate teams just because one team has more success and is better. Unless you aren’t watering  it down during a split. I get bad teams not playing top teams but don’t split it. We don’t need 9 classes. 6 at most 

HOW? HOW THE BLOODY HELL IS A RURAL AREA SUDDENLY GONNA GET 2M people to compete??

 

Yet you are one of the people who whine about blowouts in state finals well guess what

 

As long as you allow matchups of Miami Central recruiting from 3M of Dade county taking on teams from counties of less than 100k you WILL NEVER AVOID BLOWOUTS

 

At this point you may as well just cancel the rest of the state because why even bother 

 

Well you can't compete with a top 10 nationally ranked opponent that can pull from 3M population so your a crap program and you will never be good again, that's exactly what your saying!

 

[DisabledAccount]

Just now, DarterBlue2 said:

The system won't really address it. Just for those labelled suburban. But what about Tampa Bay, Orlando and Jacksonville or Palm Beach County for that matter. They will still be in essentially the same position they were in. 

Apopka is not a school that aggressively recruits. But it gets little help from the redone system. Yes, currently Columbus is the only real South Florida threat. But if some of the large publics in Dade and Broward decide to do a Miami Central, then we will still be disadvantaged.

I am not going to whine any further on this. But in my opinion only making kids that transfer sit a year unless it can be proven beyond reasonable doubt that there is a real reason for the transfer that is not sports related (such as the death of a custodian, a divorce, and the like) will make the system fairer. 

That will never happen as long as the political climate in Florida stays the same because it's the current majority party who made the change 

 

The state of Florida and the governor's office already told the FHSAA if they try to do anything to block eligiblity for transfers they will pull the FHSAA funding

 

So unfortunately that option isn't a real option for the FHSAA even if it would make serious progress in fixing it

[nolebull813]

1 minute ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

HOW? HOW THE BLOODY HELL IS A RURAL AREA SUDDENLY GONNA GET 2M people to compete??

 

Yet you are one of the people who whine about blowouts in state finals well guess what

 

As long as you allow matchups of Miami Central recruiting from 3M of Dade county taking on teams from counties of less than 100k you WILL NEVER AVOID BLOWOUTS

 

At this point you may as well just cancel the rest of the state because why even bother 

 

Well you can't compete with a top 10 nationally ranked opponent that can pull from 3M population so your a shit program and you will never be good again, that's exactly what your saying!

 

I told you I wouldn’t mind splitting it any way you want as long as it’s not watered down. What’s wrong with the rural class playing in 1S? There should be 6 total classes. I don’t care how you create the classes. Just make 6 max for a good product 

[DisabledAccount]

2 minutes ago, nolebull813 said:

I told you I wouldn’t mind splitting it any way you want as long as it’s not watered down. What’s wrong with the rural class playing in 1S? There should be 6 total classes. I don’t care how you create the classes. Just make 6 max for a good product 

Okay so merge 1R, 1S, 2S, 3S and 4S into 3 suburban classes 

 

Merge 1-4M into 3 metro classes 

 

 

That would be fine with me but the metro counties need to be split from the rural counties 

[DarterBlue2]

20 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

That will never happen as long as the political climate in Florida stays the same because it's the current majority party who made the change 

 

The state of Florida and the governor's office already told the FHSAA if they try to do anything to block eligiblity for transfers they will pull the FHSAA funding

 

So unfortunately that option isn't a real option for the FHSAA even if it would make serious progress in fixing it

So you got your fix and it's all good. But why would the teams in metro that don't cheat get stuck in a no win situation? Now we have a situation like California and certain other states that don't really have a state championship competition anymore. We have sections of the state competing against each other. 

The current situation is not tenable. Pretty soon many metro schools will just stop participating in the state series since it is either that or cheat if you want to win it all. 

[DisabledAccount]

6 minutes ago, DarterBlue2 said:

So you got your fix and it's all good. But why would the teams in metro that don't cheat get stuck in a no win situation? Now we have a situation like California and certain other states that don't really have a state championship competition anymore. We have sections of the state competing against each other. 

The current situation is not tenable. Pretty soon many metro schools will just stop participating in the state series since it is either that or cheat if you want to win it all. 

I'm not saying the current one is perfect but I guarantee you if we kept the previous system nothing we change with reseeding or point system or RPI or MaxPreps would ever fix it 

 

We will keep addressing the wrong problem by ignoring the obvious

[PinellasFB]

2 hours ago, Perspective said:

Can you please explain what you mean by this?   Feel free to name names. 

There's a certain public HS in out area that I've talked to multiple area HS coaches who tell me they were "recruiting our players."   I've talked to players who said they were being recruited and ultimately transferred there.  I don't want to name names because I don't know for sure since I'm going by what coaches and players have told me but if there's enough smoke you can assume there's a fire somewhere beneath the smoke.  Anyway they probably aren't the only team doing this crap so to single them out is likely not seeing the entire forest from a single tree on this issue.

As far as East Lake HS that I mentioned before, I said they stole our best player but in reality our player initiated that transfer and just wanted to play there.  I haven't heard of ELHS recruiting players so they are 't the team I am referring to.

[Joshua Wilson]

4 hours ago, nolebull813 said:

Miami Central is essentially being punished in that scenario because football talent is much better in Miami than Live Oak. 

You just admitted it... just totally admitted it here why we have Metro/Suburban now.

[Joshua Wilson]

4 hours ago, nolebull813 said:

Choctaw or Columbia making the state semis while Cardinal Gibbons or AHP is sitting home doesn’t sit right with me. That’s proof the system doesn’t work. 
 

A state top 7 team at home while a state 37-57 is playing the semis!!!

These teams have been in the same district and region at many times over the years. Try another argument with this one.

[181pl]

16 hours ago, Joshua Wilson said:

I respectfully disagree @nolebull813. The biggest thing is here is open enrollment which was NOT an issue 15-20 years ago. That is a massive issue in larger areas teams can get really good and keep adding talent and then when you get that matchup between two similar sized schools in a state championship with one from South Florida and one from where ever in North or Central Florida, there is a mismatch. 

Please tell me how a team like Suwannee who has 1,112 students and Miami Central who has 1,396 students are on the same leveled playing? They are not. No way they are not. You cannot even compare a rural-type school in Suwannee to a Miami Central in the middle of Miami. There is no comparison. It is night and day between the two.

It's a myth in some urban areas because schools are at capacity and "open transfers" are not really an option. So on paper, maybe there's an argument, but in reality, the rules don't apply to all schools.

Classes based on population, IMO, are still the best alternative? What do you do with super teams like STA, AHP, Chaminade, TC, IMG, etc etc? Put them in an open private school class. What do you do with an MC? A small school that is oozing with FB talent? Give them the option of playing in the open class or in the largest class.

Not perfect, but the current system is screwy. I mean, whats the difference between Lakeland and Plant or Armwood. No reason to separate these schools. Lakeland is in a county with 700K and borders Hillsborough, which has 1.4M. If kids want to get to Lakeland, they will. 

[DisabledAccount]

2 hours ago, 181pl said:

It's a myth in some urban areas because schools are at capacity and "open transfers" are not really an option. So on paper, maybe there's an argument, but in reality, the rules don't apply to all schools.

Classes based on population, IMO, are still the best alternative? What do you do with super teams like STA, AHP, Chaminade, TC, IMG, etc etc? Put them in an open private school class. What do you do with an MC? A small school that is oozing with FB talent? Give them the option of playing in the open class or in the largest class.

Not perfect, but the current system is screwy. I mean, whats the difference between Lakeland and Plant or Armwood. No reason to separate these schools. Lakeland is in a county with 700K and borders Hillsborough, which has 1.4M. If kids want to get to Lakeland, they will. 

You think because the schools in Hillsborough are at capacity it means that all metros are the same way 

 

THEY AREN'T

 

They aren't in SFL and they aren't in Jacksonville. In Jacksonville even before the rules changes there were kids would would use the address of an uncle/cousin or whatever to switch schools and now with open enrollment can pick a school, heck they even have a middle school "school selection day" and had it for years 

 

The myth in this case is you thinking that these borders have always been strict and policed well across the state 

[DisabledAccount]

2 hours ago, 181pl said:

It's a myth in some urban areas because schools are at capacity and "open transfers" are not really an option. So on paper, maybe there's an argument, but in reality, the rules don't apply to all schools.

Classes based on population, IMO, are still the best alternative? What do you do with super teams like STA, AHP, Chaminade, TC, IMG, etc etc? Put them in an open private school class. What do you do with an MC? A small school that is oozing with FB talent? Give them the option of playing in the open class or in the largest class.

Not perfect, but the current system is screwy. I mean, whats the difference between Lakeland and Plant or Armwood. No reason to separate these schools. Lakeland is in a county with 700K and borders Hillsborough, which has 1.4M. If kids want to get to Lakeland, they will. 

As already pointed out if that was the case it would be saying that Suwannee has the same ability to compete for a state title of get the necessary pieces as Miami Central (which is never at capacity and can get kids from throughout Dade County and even from Broward County if a kid wants to find transportation)

 

That logic doesn't hold up and I can list tons of examples if I can figure out where the FHSAA posted the student population numbers 

[Nulli Secundus]

56 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

As already pointed out if that was the case it would be saying that Suwannee has the same ability to compete for a state title of get the necessary pieces as Miami Central (which is never at capacity and can get kids from throughout Dade County and even from Broward County if a kid wants to find transportation)

 

That logic doesn't hold up and I can list tons of examples if I can figure out where the FHSAA posted the student population numbers 

School Enrollment Numbers

[DisabledAccount]

Suburban

 

 

Buchholz 2338

 

Braden River 1780

 

Columbia 1739

 

Baker County 1408

 

 

Metro 

 

Dillard 1795

 

Miami Central 1396

 

Miami Northwestern 1424

 

 

 

Just a few small examples 

 

We all know how Miami Central vs Baker County went but if student enrollment truly mattered it would mean both schools have equal ability to get the talent necessary to compete with those teams but when's the last time that was true? The 60s?

[h8r]

19 hours ago, nolebull813 said:

No what I’m saying is Live Oak needs to get better. Teams in Miami are being punished for some of them being good and rural North FL team are being rewarded for mediocrity.  
 

the point is you don’t separate teams just because one team has more success and is better. Unless you aren’t watering  it down during a split. I get bad teams not playing top teams but don’t split it. We don’t need 9 classes. 6 at most 

9 too many, 6 may not be enough.  that 6th class would be like 2500 and up, what kind of disparity is that? a team with 2500 kids playing a team with 4000 kids(or more).  not different than 1000 vs 2500.....

[h8r]

19 hours ago, DarterBlue2 said:

The system won't really address it. Just for those labelled suburban. But what about Tampa Bay, Orlando and Jacksonville or Palm Beach County for that matter. They will still be in essentially the same position they were in. 

Apopka is not a school that aggressively recruits. But it gets little help from the redone system. Yes, currently Columbus is the only real South Florida threat. But if some of the large publics in Dade and Broward decide to do a Miami Central, then we will still be disadvantaged.

I am not going to whine any further on this. But in my opinion only making kids that transfer sit a year unless it can be proven beyond reasonable doubt that there is a real reason for the transfer that is not sports related (such as the death of a custodian, a divorce, and the like) will make the system fairer. 

sit a year is the real solution.  period.  365 out, regardless.  academics over athletics.  get caught using fake address, no sports for 365.

but because im a hater,

you want fair, theres one the comes to the westside of orlando every year, they have lots of cotton candy, some wonderful fried stuff and some carnies that can talk smack better than any 15yr old. 

life aint fair, rich get richer, poor stay poor and middle class is screwed both ways.

i will take my cotton candy please and a nice fried snickers, with my diet coke.  thank you

[181pl]

3 hours ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

As already pointed out if that was the case it would be saying that Suwannee has the same ability to compete for a state title of get the necessary pieces as Miami Central (which is never at capacity and can get kids from throughout Dade County and even from Broward County if a kid wants to find transportation)

 

That logic doesn't hold up and I can list tons of examples if I can figure out where the FHSAA posted the student population numbers 

Definitely have different opinions on this. I still think the best way is to put teams in classes based on population. Not all of Hillsborough is at capacity. some examples of schools in the Tampa area not at capacity and still underperforming in football would include schools like Brandon, Spoto, Chamberlain, Blake, and believe it or not even Jefferson. Open transfers are not the panacea they are made out to be.

 

And nine classes are simply too many; we could probably get away with four public school classes, two private school classes, and one elite open class. Limit it to say 24 teams and everybody makes the postseason with a first round bye for the best 8. This could be public schools and private schools that consistently win. They can schedule who they want in the regular season because there would be no district and everybody would qualify for the playoffs. Teams could be moved in and out of this based on their yearly performance.

[nolebull813]

44 minutes ago, h8r said:

9 too many, 6 may not be enough.  that 6th class would be like 2500 and up, what kind of disparity is that? a team with 2500 kids playing a team with 4000 kids(or more).  not different than 1000 vs 2500.....

2500 is no different than 4000 some of the worst teams in the state have 2500-4000 in enrollment. There are teams with 400 that would put a running clock on teams with 4000. Some not all 

[DisabledAccount]

32 minutes ago, 181pl said:

Definitely have different opinions on this. I still think the best way is to put teams in classes based on population. Not all of Hillsborough is at capacity. some examples of schools in the Tampa area not at capacity and still underperforming in football would include schools like Brandon, Spoto, Chamberlain, Blake, and believe it or not even Jefferson. Open transfers are not the panacea they are made out to be.

 

And nine classes are simply too many; we could probably get away with four public school classes, two private school classes, and one elite open class. Limit it to say 24 teams and everybody makes the postseason with a first round bye for the best 8. This could be public schools and private schools that consistently win. They can schedule who they want in the regular season because there would be no district and everybody would qualify for the playoffs. Teams could be moved in and out of this based on their yearly performance.

Private schools in rural areas have no specific advantage than anyone else 

 

Aucilla Christian doesn't have an advantage over Madison County

 

Splitting privates aren't gonna fix anything because the public schools in SFL and Jacksonville are far worse than any of the privates, Riverside last year got transfers from 3 different counties and 2 transfers from TCA, why should Columbia have to share a district with a team who is cheating just because they are a public school? 

 

As for an open division I would be fine with that idea as it may solve most of the problems but it was proposed a few years ago and shot down because get this, top teams don't want to be put in the same class when they could stay in the archaic and out of date classification by enrollment and have Miami Central vs Baker County or Miami Central vs Lake Minneola to pile up easy title wins 

[nolebull813]

Varela High has 3,200 kids 

Ferguson has 4300 kids 

Coral Park has 2300 kids 

Reagan High has 2000 kids 

 

These are some of the worst teams in the country. There are Deaf and Blind schools ranked higher than them. These schools are in the most fertile recruiting spot in America. Explain to me how they have a built-in advantage over Lakeland, Venice, Vero Beach, Osceola etc etc?

[DisabledAccount]

@181pl

Can you name me any private school from a county of less than 100k that can consistently beat decent Florida publics (top 100 in state) on a regular basis and is "taking opportunities away from public schools who would otherwise compete for a title?" 

[nolebull813]

16 hours ago, Joshua Wilson said:

You just admitted it... just totally admitted it here why we have Metro/Suburban now.

So you are admitting it. The state just watered down the playoff brackets even more than it already has been because some teams in metropolitan areas have had too much success so they have to keep making participation trophies for others that haven’t earned it to feel better

[DisabledAccount]

1 minute ago, nolebull813 said:

So you are admitting it. The state just watered down the playoff brackets even more than it already has been because some teams in metropolitan areas have had too much success so they have to keep making participation trophies for others that haven’t earned it to feel better

Earned it? How the hell is any team realistically supposed to keep up with teams that can recruit from a county of 3m people?

 

So what you have to hang with a top 5 nationally ranked team who can recruit all of Dade county just to call yourself a champion? What kind of bullshit is that?!!

[PinellasFB]

I've always wondered why these private schools want to win so badly that they invest so heavily in athletics?  Does this somehow improve their enrollment by generating more applications?  Why does Jesuit here in Tampa, for example, want to win state championships in each sport enough to pay the tuition for great players who would never attend their school otherwise?  What is the incentive for these private schools?