The new playoff format was a disaster

[nolebull813]

I’m saying that not to imply the old model was any better. Some people posted here that it was a success. I say it was an unmitigated disaster. The reason being is the top 5 teams in the state were…..

Miami Central, STA, Chaminade, Lakeland and Columbus. Not in that specific order but the consensus is those are the top 5 teams. 
 

AND THEY ARE ALL IN 5 DIFFERENT PLAYOFF BRACKETS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is a travesty. An injustice to the best athletes in the country. The FHSAA should fold, and new competent association should take place. Anyone who advocated for this model, or worse praised the model after the fact is complicit, and openly admitting their opinion is compromised by ignorance and bias in that order!!!!

 

[Nulli Secundus]

On 12/27/2022 at 11:42 AM, nolebull813 said:

I’m saying that not to imply the old model was any better. Some people posted here that it was a success. I say it was an unmitigated disaster. The reason being is the top 5 teams in the state were…..

Miami Central, STA, Chaminade, Lakeland and Columbus. Not in that specific order but the consensus is those are the top 5 teams. 
 

AND THEY ARE ALL IN 5 DIFFERENT PLAYOFF BRACKETS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is a travesty. An injustice to the best athletes in the country. The FHSAA should fold, and new competent association should take place. Anyone who advocated for this model, or worse praised the model after the fact is complicit, and openly admitting their opinion is compromised by ignorance and bias in that order!!!!

 

One class, One Title, One Undisputed FHSAA Champion would easily put that issue to rest.  No guessing, no cross class speculation on who's better than who.  One class, one trophy, One Florida Champion.  Damn I sound like a politician, lol.

Also, I would love to see running clocks abolished in general but ESPECIALLY in the playoffs.  That's just me though...

[Dr. D]

Can't find another state that does it that way, but I suppose Florida could be the first.  Like the Kentucky high school basketball tournament, where all the teams are thrown into one big tournament with one state champion.  Can't get on board personally.  And no running clock?  Not even at 40, 50, 60 points?  Where's your Holiday spirit?

[h8r]

indiana basketball used to be 1 class, idk anymore.

wrestling i think still is 1 class-32 man tourney win friday night you advance to saturday 16 man bracket.  lose and go home.  caused for some serious matches on friday just to survive and advance.

texas has no running clock.  why stats and scores from texas are outrageous. some real good teams, but the avg to below are just plain awful.

1 state champ wont ever work, not enough money not enough weeks in season to have a big enough bracket to do it.  if you took top 16, your leaving out some teams that would well be deserving to get a chance to play.  

im sure someone here could post the top 16 teams in the state and not everyone one of the smart guys here would agree on top 16.  and with that, who chooses whos top 16?  coaches poll?  admin?  fhsaa? maxpreps?  regardless, someone would hate that 2 and it would be a mistake and a joke and stupid and blah blah.

cant make everyone happy, shouldnt even try too.  everyone gets a trophy, everyone needs a hug, everyone needs reassurance that your 2-8 team is deserving to play in the tournament, because you only lost to "insert powerhouse here" 56-6 and they beat everyone much worse......

 

 

[Nulli Secundus]

14 hours ago, Dr. D said:

Can't find another state that does it that way, but I suppose Florida could be the first.  Like the Kentucky high school basketball tournament, where all the teams are thrown into one big tournament with one state champion.  Can't get on board personally.  And no running clock?  Not even at 40, 50, 60 points?  Where's your Holiday spirit?

Florida "could" be first but I would fully expect the backlash to be more severe than the metro/suburban idea by far.  It would effectively mean, put up or shut up.  

The only running clock in life is death.  Outside of that, I believe that any team should be afforded the allotted time do what they came to do, ass whoopin or not.  

[nolebull813]

I agree there should be no running clock. You are robbing kids of reps. You are robbing fans of a game they paid for. You are taking away key plays away from backups and 3rd stringers who don’t normally get to play. 
 

If you lose a varsity game by 70, then maybe you shouldn’t be playing varsity football 

[Perspective]

Interesting hypothetical question for you guys:  Let's say the FHSAA went to an "open division" for any school that wanted to compete for the ultimate state title, with a cap (or no cap, not sure which makes more sense) on the number of schools eligible to compete for the open division title.  We can all sit here and think of schools that might choose to opt in - the traditional powerhouses.   And let's say that if you opt in, you have to stay in for a defined length of time (say, four years).  And let's say those schools could play anyone that they wanted to during the regular season, but at the end of the regular season, only the top 16 make the playoffs (based on the power ranking formula in effect at the time).  Each year, some really good football teams wouldn't even make the playoffs and some other even better teams would be sitting at home after the first or second week of the playoffs.   For these teams that don't make the playoffs or don't advance past the first round or two, do they run the risk of sliding into mediocrity (or even worse) because the underclassmen on their team decide to transfer out?  Would this affect their choice to play or not play in the open division?

With that in mind, which of these schools would choose to play in the open division and which ones would prefer to just stay in their Metro or Suburban classification, knowing that there's a pretty good chance they'll at least make it to the finals and probably win their 'minor league' state title:  STA, Cocoa, Osceola, Miami Central, BTW, Northwestern, Madonna Chaminade, Columbus, Jesuit, Armwood, Apopka, Lakeland and Venice.  

This question is not asking you which of those teams you'd like to see in the open division.  Instead, the question requires you look into the minds and souls of each school's administration/athletic department/coaching staff and determine whether they would risk playing in the open division for a shot at the top prize or stay home in the comfort of their own classification for the chance to win a state championship in their "lower division." 

[anonimis]

2 hours ago, nolebull813 said:

I agree there should be no running clock. You are robbing kids of reps. You are robbing fans of a game they paid for. You are taking away key plays away from backups and 3rd stringers who don’t normally get to play. 
 

If you lose a varsity game by 70, then maybe you shouldn’t be playing varsity football 

Stop scheduling games with 70+ point spreads.

 

Florida needs better matchmaking.

[nolebull813]

15 minutes ago, anonimis said:

Stop scheduling games with 70+ point spreads.

 

Florida needs better matchmaking.

Agree. There is real problem here with teams playing games they have zero chance to win. Especially going out of state. It’s an embarrassment. These coaches are irresponsible. Both parties. The winning coaches should be like sorry we need to test our team with real competition and not have our fans go home at halftime. And the losing coaches should be lone no thanks. Losing by 50-70 won’t do good for anyone. 

[KeemD321]

1 hour ago, nolebull813 said:

Agree. There is real problem here with teams playing games they have zero chance to win. Especially going out of state. It’s an embarrassment. These coaches are irresponsible. Both parties. The winning coaches should be like sorry we need to test our team with real competition and not have our fans go home at halftime. And the losing coaches should be lone no thanks. Losing by 50-70 won’t do good for anyone. 

Kinda how I believe Lowndes was doing everything in their power to get Dunbar to travel right after the hurricane 

[nolebull813]

1 hour ago, KeemD321 said:

Kinda how I believe Lowndes was doing everything in their power to get Dunbar to travel right after the hurricane 

Yeah they did. They were waving that much needed money in front of them. They fundraised some money for them which was admirable but Dunbar was in no position to play a game after that long of a layoff and the circumstances of their neighborhood being in shambles. The coaches took and unprepared team and worse “out of football shape” to go play a game so Lowndes can collect the gate money. It was shady at best 

[Floridaatlantic1]

There really needs to be a running clock in regular season especially now that district matchups are so unfair in many games with new condensed 8 districts into four.  I am fine with no running clock in playoffs 

[KeemD321]

18 hours ago, nolebull813 said:

Yeah they did. They were waving that much needed money in front of them. They fundraised some money for them which was admirable but Dunbar was in no position to play a game after that long of a layoff and the circumstances of their neighborhood being in shambles. The coaches took and unprepared team and worse “out of football shape” to go play a game so Lowndes can collect the gate money. It was shady at best 

Was most definitely shady. Hated how they were throwing it out there on the national board. Yea I get they raised funds but they could've easily scheduled a different team and used a percentage of the gate as funds to help out Dunbar while they recouped or atleast raised funds and sent it down to Dunbar. 

[h8r]

On 12/28/2022 at 12:05 PM, anonimis said:

Stop scheduling games with 70+ point spreads.

 

Florida needs better matchmaking.

thats just a silly statement.  80%+ of high schools schedule is done by head coaches and ADs, some counties like orange force their schools to schedule metro teams 1st, seminole county does it to(i believe).  so your handcuffed as a match maker.  yearly doormat team A that has won 75 games in 25 years has to play yearly state powerhouse team B that has won 75 games in 7 years......cant blame coach or AD for that, for sure cant blame florida for that.....

 

h8r

[anonimis]

24 minutes ago, h8r said:

thats just a silly statement.  80%+ of high schools schedule is done by head coaches and ADs, some counties like orange force their schools to schedule metro teams 1st, seminole county does it to(i believe).  so your handcuffed as a match maker.  yearly doormat team A that has won 75 games in 25 years has to play yearly state powerhouse team B that has won 75 games in 7 years......cant blame coach or AD for that, for sure cant blame florida for that.....

 

h8r

From the 2022 regular season

gametype        District       Non-District
games              751             2006

 

Games with 70+ point differences

gametype                   District        Non-District
score difference         7                  6

Games with 60+ point differences

gametype                   District         Non-District
score difference        28                 24

District games made up about 27.2% of games this season.  They were 53.8% of 70+ point games and 53.8% of 60+ point games.  I agree, Coaches and ADs do a much better job of scheduling games than the FHSAA.  The matchups like the ones forced by Orange County and Seminole County or the FHSAA are causing the majority of issues.

 

[PinellasFB]

Man this thread is insane.  No running clock?  For real?  You actually think a 70-0 score is robbing kids of reps vs a 100-0 score?  Do you have any feelings at all for the kids getting curb stomped? Do you have any idea how it feels to be on the receiving end of a beating from a team with players plundered from your own team?  I do know what this feels like and it sucks beyond all measure for those poor kids who put in four years of work only to see their best player cherry picked by the crosstown rival who's putting together a stacked team for a playoff run.  I know I'm not changing any minds here so I'm just venting but damn guys, have a heart at least.  These are still kids.

[Floridaatlantic1]

Most districts are 40 per cent of schedule not 27%. It’s rare to have four team districts in monster metro big boy major leagues 

[Nulli Secundus]

1 hour ago, Floridaatlantic1 said:

Most districts are 40 per cent of schedule not 27%. It’s rare to have four team districts in monster metro big boy major leagues 

Not as rare as you think.  Out of 50 metro districts, 27 districts only have 4 teams and 8 districts have 3 teams.  

[DarterBlue2]

1 hour ago, Nulli Secundus said:

Not as rare as you think.  Out of 50 metro districts, 27 districts only have 4 teams and 8 districts have 3 teams.  

Exactly. It depends on the class. Several Metro areas, for example, Metro Orlando, have very few teams in some of the classes. 

[nolebull813]

On 12/31/2022 at 4:30 PM, PinellasFB said:

Man this thread is insane.  No running clock?  For real?  You actually think a 70-0 score is robbing kids of reps vs a 100-0 score?  Do you have any feelings at all for the kids getting curb stomped? Do you have any idea how it feels to be on the receiving end of a beating from a team with players plundered from your own team?  I do know what this feels like and it sucks beyond all measure for those poor kids who put in four years of work only to see their best player cherry picked by the crosstown rival who's putting together a stacked team for a playoff run.  I know I'm not changing any minds here so I'm just venting but damn guys, have a heart at least.  These are still kids.

When you say “plundered” are you implying the other team illegally recruited the players, and if so was there any evidence at all that could have been turned over? And if not then how do you know it was illegal?

[Nulli Secundus]

On 12/31/2022 at 4:30 PM, PinellasFB said:

Man this thread is insane.  No running clock?  For real?  You actually think a 70-0 score is robbing kids of reps vs a 100-0 score?  Do you have any feelings at all for the kids getting curb stomped? Do you have any idea how it feels to be on the receiving end of a beating from a team with players plundered from your own team?  I do know what this feels like and it sucks beyond all measure for those poor kids who put in four years of work only to see their best player cherry picked by the crosstown rival who's putting together a stacked team for a playoff run.  I know I'm not changing any minds here so I'm just venting but damn guys, have a heart at least.  These are still kids.

Although @nolebull813 brought up the margins of defeat but in my opinion, he's not wrong. 

I'm gonna take you on a journey back to 1989, Crystal Lake Junior High in Lakeland.  Our football team sucked.  Notoriously SUCKED!!  It was so bad, in elementary school before going to junior high, when people found out where I was going the made fun of me because of the reputation of the football team and I hadn't set foot on the campus.  I digress.  The schools were divided into east/west depending on where they were geographically, then at the end of season the top school from both east/west would meet for a county championship.

West
Seth McKeel (Lakeland)
Southwest (Lakeland)
Lake Gibson (Lakeland)
Kathleen (Lakeland)
Crystal Lake (Lakeland)
Lakeland Highlands
Mulberry

East
Stambaugh (Auburndale)
Lake Wales
Boone (Haines City)
Denison (Winter Haven)
Jewett (Winter Haven)
Westwood (Winter Haven)
Bartow

Back to the story, lol.  Of all the extra curricular activities I participated in at Crystal Lake (CLJH), football was very unpopular and often times ridiculed.  My first two years in junior high (7-8), I played basketball and was also in marching band.  To me, I could still hold my head high doing those so-to-speak but admittedly it was tough being in band at the football games watching our team, essentially our school get slaughtered.  Anyway, in my 8th grade geography class during football season, there were a few players in the class wearing their jerseys for the pep rally and subsequent game (Thursday).  I don't remember exactly how everything started but the class started ripping on the players saying things, "like you're going to, don't even bother to show up".  You know how harsh kids can be.  Yes, I'm guilty of participating.  As a matter of fact, I got the last dig in before my teacher and the football coach (Coach Chip Salerno - former LG AD) probably gave me one of the most important lessons that good educators are remembered for.  He said:

1. All these guys in uniform put in the work and are on the team.  What's your excuse?  I don't remember seeing you at tryouts.
2. All these guys that put on these uniforms know what they're up against.  They're still here, fighting.  They may lose on the field but they will know how to persevere and win in life.

Now, I've heard those words in different forms prior to that situation but I don't know what made that particular situation resonate and stick with me.  Maybe it was because he had me stand up before the class while he lit into me so I could truly understand how it felt.  The next year (freshmen year) I got off my ass and told my dad I was trying out for football.  He being a teacher and coach himself (P.E. at Bartow Jr, Basketball/Football at Bartow Sr) was excited and wasted no time giving me at home drills and practice (which I absolutely hated, lol) ahead of football tryouts.  Although I had been playing basketball for years through the city league, AAU and my first 2 years in junior high, this was my first time trying to play football outside of neighborhood pickup games.  He brought home pads and had me practice hitting a pad-lined pine tree in our backyard.  I felt stupid and my little sister (around 7 yrs old) said Bubby (what she used to call me), you look stupid hitting that tree .  That pissed me off even more.  I say to my dad, why am I hitting this tree because it won't move.  He said, it's not about you hitting the tree, it's about you being able to handle what it feels like when that tree doesn't give and toughen you up.  

Ultimately, I tried out and I made the team.  Our team still sucked and yes we got laughed at but I wouldn't trade that season for anything.  I'll always remember the sack I got that forced a fumble recovery for a TD.  Looking back, I wish I had tried out 7th & 8th grade.  I took that short trip down memory lane to say this:

No, I don't have any feelings for the kids getting curb stomped (as you phrased it) because those kids chose to put on that uniform.  That's not heartless, that life.  I don't know what it feels like to be on the receiving end of an ass kicking from players "plundered" from my own team but I've certainly experienced many beat downs.  Again, you put in the work, you put on the uniform and based on your post, I will assume you didn't quit.  What did you learn from your experiences?  I learned that no matter what, do your best and don't give up.  You may not win all the time but you damn sure won't lose all the time.  Even if you do lose most or all of the time, you certainly learn how to keep moving forward despite the obstacles placed before you, whether just or unjust.  Yes, these are still kids.  These kids are also a stone's throw from being an adult and thrown into a world that will bend the rules, break the rules, cheat, lie, steal, kill, and destroy without batting and eye and if these kids are not mentally prepared for that NOW, chances are they're more screwed than they would be otherwise without those hard-knock lessons.  With that being said, I truly believe that a running clock does a disservice to the game in general.  If it were up to me (thank goodness it's not), I would get rid of it.  Hell, I'd be willing to even compromise to use running clock during the regular season.  However, for the playoffs, no way, no how.  If you're in the playoffs you're there for a reason.  NO MERCY.  

We all have feelings and perspectives on this subject.  This is simply my take on it.  Thank you for your perspective.

[PinellasFB]

14 hours ago, Nulli Secundus said:

Although @nolebull813 brought up the margins of defeat but in my opinion, he's not wrong. 

I'm gonna take you on a journey back to 1989, Crystal Lake Junior High in Lakeland.  Our football team sucked.  Notoriously SUCKED!!  It was so bad, in elementary school before going to junior high, when people found out where I was going the made fun of me because of the reputation of the football team and I hadn't set foot on the campus.  I digress.  The schools were divided into east/west depending on where they were geographically, then at the end of season the top school from both east/west would meet for a county championship.

West
Seth McKeel (Lakeland)
Southwest (Lakeland)
Lake Gibson (Lakeland)
Kathleen (Lakeland)
Crystal Lake (Lakeland)
Lakeland Highlands
Mulberry

East
Stambaugh (Auburndale)
Lake Wales
Boone (Haines City)
Denison (Winter Haven)
Jewett (Winter Haven)
Westwood (Winter Haven)
Bartow

Back to the story, lol.  Of all the extra curricular activities I participated in at Crystal Lake (CLJH), football was very unpopular and often times ridiculed.  My first two years in junior high (7-8), I played basketball and was also in marching band.  To me, I could still hold my head high doing those so-to-speak but admittedly it was tough being in band at the football games watching our team, essentially our school get slaughtered.  Anyway, in my 8th grade geography class during football season, there were a few players in the class wearing their jerseys for the pep rally and subsequent game (Thursday).  I don't remember exactly how everything started but the class started ripping on the players saying things, "like you're going to, don't even bother to show up".  You know how harsh kids can be.  Yes, I'm guilty of participating.  As a matter of fact, I got the last dig in before my teacher and the football coach (Coach Chip Salerno - former LG AD) probably gave me one of the most important lessons that good educators are remembered for.  He said:

1. All these guys in uniform put in the work and are on the team.  What's your excuse?  I don't remember seeing you at tryouts.
2. All these guys that put on these uniforms know what they're up against.  They're still here, fighting.  They may lose on the field but they will know how to persevere and win in life.

Now, I've heard those words in different forms prior to that situation but I don't know what made that particular situation resonate and stick with me.  Maybe it was because he had me stand up before the class while he lit into me so I could truly understand how it felt.  The next year (freshmen year) I got off my ass and told my dad I was trying out for football.  He being a teacher and coach himself (P.E. at Bartow Jr, Basketball/Football at Bartow Sr) was excited and wasted no time giving me at home drills and practice (which I absolutely hated, lol) ahead of football tryouts.  Although I had been playing basketball for years through the city league, AAU and my first 2 years in junior high, this was my first time trying to play football outside of neighborhood pickup games.  He brought home pads and had me practice hitting a pad-lined pine tree in our backyard.  I felt stupid and my little sister (around 7 yrs old) said Bubby (what she used to call me), you look stupid hitting that tree .  That pissed me off even more.  I say to my dad, why am I hitting this tree because it won't move.  He said, it's not about you hitting the tree, it's about you being able to handle what it feels like when that tree doesn't give and toughen you up.  

Ultimately, I tried out and I made the team.  Our team still sucked and yes we got laughed at but I wouldn't trade that season for anything.  I'll always remember the sack I got that forced a fumble recovery for a TD.  Looking back, I wish I had tried out 7th & 8th grade.  I took that short trip down memory lane to say this:

No, I don't have any feelings for the kids getting curb stomped (as you phrased it) because those kids chose to put on that uniform.  That's not heartless, that life.  I don't know what it feels like to be on the receiving end of an ass kicking from players "plundered" from my own team but I've certainly experienced many beat downs.  Again, you put in the work, you put on the uniform and based on your post, I will assume you didn't quit.  What did you learn from your experiences?  I learned that no matter what, do your best and don't give up.  You may not win all the time but you damn sure won't lose all the time.  Even if you do lose most or all of the time, you certainly learn how to keep moving forward despite the obstacles placed before you, whether just or unjust.  Yes, these are still kids.  These kids are also a stone's throw from being an adult and thrown into a world that will bend the rules, break the rules, cheat, lie, steal, kill, and destroy without batting and eye and if these kids are not mentally prepared for that NOW, chances are they're more screwed than they would be otherwise without those hard-knock lessons.  With that being said, I truly believe that a running clock does a disservice to the game in general.  If it were up to me (thank goodness it's not), I would get rid of it.  Hell, I'd be willing to even compromise to use running clock during the regular season.  However, for the playoffs, no way, no how.  If you're in the playoffs you're there for a reason.  NO MERCY.  

We all have feelings and perspectives on this subject.  This is simply my take on it.  Thank you for your perspective.

Wow that was a lot to read lol.  It's okay that we differ in opinions since a forum would be rather boring if we all had the same take.  Anyway, I'm okay with no mercy rule in the playoffs.  If you qualified for the playoffs then you should be able to defend yourself.  My point of view on this is a running clock reduces ridiculous scores like 90-0 from happening except a couple times per year.  Without a running clock, we may see many more of these unnecessary scores.  Oh well this dead horse has been beaten enough so I'm done. 

[nolebull813]

20 hours ago, PinellasFB said:

Wow that was a lot to read lol.  It's okay that we differ in opinions since a forum would be rather boring if we all had the same take.  Anyway, I'm okay with no mercy rule in the playoffs.  If you qualified for the playoffs then you should be able to defend yourself.  My point of view on this is a running clock reduces ridiculous scores like 90-0 from happening except a couple times per year.  Without a running clock, we may see many more of these unnecessary scores.  Oh well this dead horse has been beaten enough so I'm done. 

I think the issue is you shouldn’t be playing varsity football if you are losing by 70-100 points. Obviously it’s not for you. JV or 6/7/8 man football seems more appropriate. 
 

Ask yourself what can you do in society that you fail that spectacularly, and continue to go at it? That’s like getting all F’s on a report card. 
 

i actually find it a huge waste of time when you have these teams playing 11 man varsity football that look so incompetent it actually looks disrespectful to the game. It makes the game worse. You should have to be able to at least do your job at the most basic level to remain employed. 

[nolebull813]

Here’s my story. My kids go to a small K-8 school. All the sports are 5th-8th coed. I coach the track and flag football teams. 

So this year we went to a 7on7 flag tournament in Orlando and we’re much better than everyone. The first game we won 47-0. We were about to play a team that was so bad I actually left my 2 best players out because they were so outmanned and we still won 38-0. 
 

These are all Christian schools and one of the refs was a pastor in Sarasota and asked my players to go easy on the team we were about the play and they looked at him sideways and said “No! We came to win!!”

We won the tournament pretty easily and after that pastor and my AD came up to me and told me we were running the score up and not playing with Christian principles. I told them how can I hold practice, teach the kids to play the right way, give 110 percent effort, correct the mistakes and get better, then come game time go pretend you are handicap because your opponent doesn’t know how to compete? 
 

They said when you embarrass these kids they are not having any fun I said you have fun by winning! And I said when you beat these teams it actually helps them go 2 ways. Give up football because it’s obviously not for you, OR use it as motivation to get better and try your hardest to improve at the game you love.

Bottom line is I can’t handicap myself because you are incompetent 

[PinellasFB]

1 hour ago, nolebull813 said:

I think the issue is you shouldn’t be playing varsity football if you are losing by 70-100 points. Obviously it’s not for you. JV or 6/7/8 man football seems more appropriate. 
 

Ask yourself what can you do in society that you fail that spectacularly, and continue to go at it? That’s like getting all F’s on a report card. 
 

i actually find it a huge waste of time when you have these teams playing 11 man varsity football that look so incompetent it actually looks disrespectful to the game. It makes the game worse. You should have to be able to at least do your job at the most basic level to remain employed. 

You over simplify this.  In the era of super teams, physical mismatches are inevitable.  Maybe the field would've been more level had not all the good players gone to a single team?  It doesn't mean those lesser teams should not have the right to play varsity ball.  It also doesn't mean they have to go independent just because Miami Central is now in their district either.  I think it's all about teaching the kids the right thing to do.  In an era seeming devoid of compassion, I prefer to demonstrate compassion for an outclassed opponent once they're beaten rather than continue to push their face down into the mud just because you can.  I have no problem with third stringers scoring and running it up in the second half.  Those kids deserve to score too and sometimes their third team is better than your starters. 

We can agree to disagree on this one of course, just like some coaches will run it up while others choose to let up.