STA dipping into Tampa Bay?

[VeniceIndianFan]

I find it funny how someone named "LakelandGator" is so quick on the draw to condemn Venice for getting 2 transfers, while conveniently forgetting that Lakeland broke the Polk County record for transfers in a single season last year at SEVENTEEN! With at least 8 of them being ranked 5-star players, alongside the number 1 defensive back in the country in Cormani Mcclain. All of this, while calling me a "cockster" to boot. Haha. 

[Ray Icaza]

1 hour ago, VeniceIndiansFootball said:

I find it funny how someone named "LakelandGator" is so quick on the draw to condemn Venice for getting 2 transfers, while conveniently forgetting that Lakeland broke the Polk County record for transfers in a single season last year at SEVENTEEN! With at least 8 of them being ranked 5-star players, alongside the number 1 defensive back in the country in Cormani Mcclain. All of this, while calling me a "cockster" to boot. Haha. 

You have a valid argument but it is diminished when you exaggerate the facts.  I don't know how many transfers they got but will agree it was alot.  However, I think they only had 2   5-star players on the entire roster with Williams (WR) not being a transfer where McClain moved across town.   I am not bashing Venice for doing it nor Lakeland as I do realize if you want to compete for a title year in and year out that is unfortunately baked in.  Again I am a strong supporter of the 1 year sit rule as it would without a doubt curb the majority of this type of movement as I wholeheartedly believe more teams would have a crack at the top every 10-15 years.  And yes, our team also benefits from this movement to some extent in our county but my preference would be for it to stop.   However, it is pointless to continue to criticize the enviroment you are in knowing the change you want isn't happening as opposed to adapting to create that winning culture over time to make your team competitive with the best. 

[h8r]

16 hours ago, PinellasFB said:

I dont know what is the point of stacking a HS team with cherry picked players from other teams?  I mean of course you will beat everybody who uses only players from their zone (that they can hang on to).  To me, the joy of high school ball is your school rises and falls depending upon the group of kids you have moving through your program any given four year period.  Once in a while you will get a very special group that puts in a run for your team that will be remembered and talked about for years.  That shit doesnt happen anymore now that teams just get transfers in.  The rich stay rich and poor stay poor.  How can you feel good about each year when its done with transfers instead of kids moving through your program?  I hate it but I know I'm preaching to the choir here but of course there are those on this board that want to win 100-0 with these transfers over your decimated team.  That part I will never understand.

even a h8r can agree with this.....

nil and transfer portal killing college football programs, which in turn are kicking high school recruiting in the teeth and high school transfers are following suit.  

dam shame

[h8r]

well said @Ray Icaza 1 yr sit rule would eliminate alot of the tomfoolery going on in the HS transfer portal....fhsaa doesnt have the cajones to pull it off tho.  they dont want anyone to sue them for not allowing thier baby to play ball where the rich get richer and poor stay in the dumps....

[Ray Icaza]

29 minutes ago, h8r said:

well said @Ray Icaza 1 yr sit rule would eliminate alot of the tomfoolery going on in the HS transfer portal....fhsaa doesnt have the cajones to pull it off tho.  they dont want anyone to sue them for not allowing thier baby to play ball where the rich get richer and poor stay in the dumps....

I actually think where the FHSAA has a conflict re-enacting this rule is how it applies to privates vs publics.  Privates business model requires them to attract transfers but it is mostly for academics and that is difficult to argue against.  That isn't the case with publics thus they have difficult choices as the open transfer rules gives those privates that want to also be superior in sports a leg up.  Thus the dominance exhibited by the Bolles School, STA and others beginning in the early 2000's with that huge recruitment advantage.  People want to equate their success to coaching, facility, etc  and although important it boils down to the Jimmies and the Joes.  During the ensuing decade the privates continued to become even more dominant and caused some publics to resort to whatever means necessary to keep up.  To me publics and privates should continue to schedule each other if they wish but privates should have their own state champs (playoffs) and publics the same with the 1 year sit rule in place for publics.   Again, lots of the forum members have good ideas but implementation of those seems highly unlikely so then each school needs to figure out what is important to them and execute a long-term strategy to achieve that.  Continued complaining gets you nowhere. 

 

[Dr. D]

Tennessee is one state that has managed to separate out publics and privates into separate playoff brackets.  In Tennessee, public, magnet and charter schools participate in Division I (with 6 classes) and independent (i.e., "private") schools participate in Division II (with 3 classes).  This arrangement probably works because private schools have a lot less clout in Tennessee than they do in Florida, and I think it is that clout that would prevent your (worthwhile) proposal from ever being adopted in Florida.  

[Ray Icaza]

1 hour ago, Dr. D said:

Tennessee is one state that has managed to separate out publics and privates into separate playoff brackets.  In Tennessee, public, magnet and charter schools participate in Division I (with 6 classes) and independent (i.e., "private") schools participate in Division II (with 3 classes).  This arrangement probably works because private schools have a lot less clout in Tennessee than they do in Florida, and I think it is that clout that would prevent your (worthwhile) proposal from ever being adopted in Florida.  

Understood, but to be clear I am a big advocate of parents choosing where to send their kids to school; private, parochial, charter, magnet, public or whatever offers their child the best possible education.  But in our state it had been a big loophole giving those few privates that wanted to be football powers a big advantage when it came to recruiting.  I know our long lost Columbia fan seemed to be a big defender of the privates who had been doing it for years before some publics decided to get into the act.   But his only card was that NOW publics (not all) are doing it as well.   So if you wanted to be competitive with those few privates you had to find dudes.  It ain't rocket science. 

[Dr. D]

10 hours ago, h8r said:

well said @Ray Icaza 1 yr sit rule would eliminate alot of the tomfoolery going on in the HS transfer portal....fhsaa doesnt have the cajones to pull it off tho.  they dont want anyone to sue them for not allowing thier baby to play ball where the rich get richer and poor stay in the dumps....

It is not a matter of the FHSAA not having the cajones to enact a 1-year sit rule.  Their lawyers are smart enough to read Florida Statue 1002.31, which states, "(6)(a) A school district or charter school may not delay eligibility or otherwise prevent a student participating in controlled open enrollment or a choice program from being immediately eligible to participate in interscholastic and intrascholastic extracurricular activities."  The intent of the state legislature is clear.  The FHSAA can see that.  Or they would lose in court if they tried to enact such a restriction.

[h8r]

9 hours ago, Dr. D said:

It is not a matter of the FHSAA not having the cajones to enact a 1-year sit rule.  Their lawyers are smart enough to read Florida Statue 1002.31, which states, "(6)(a) A school district or charter school may not delay eligibility or otherwise prevent a student participating in controlled open enrollment or a choice program from being immediately eligible to participate in interscholastic and intrascholastic extracurricular activities."  The intent of the state legislature is clear.  The FHSAA can see that.  Or they would lose in court if they tried to enact such a restriction.

oh for sure they would lose,

when did the statue come out?  when the rep from polk county, lakeland area, went and forced her hand with this.  due to publix high kids bolting to lakeland and that coach/admin was going to turn them in.  if my old man memory serves me correctly....

it hasnt been that long ago fhsaa was in charge of the sports.....

[Dr. D]

Your memory is pretty good.  It was in 2012-13 that Sen. Kelli Stargel (R-Lakeland) filed bills designed to "refocus" the FHSAA and erode its authority to oversee high school sports in Florida, effectively putting the FHSAA on notice.  It was actually in 2016 when Florida passed legislation that created a statewide Controlled Open Enrollment (COE) policy that requires all 67 school districts to participate and includes both inter- and intra-district transfers.  Chapter 1002 Section 31 - 2016 Florida Statutes - The Florida Senate (flsenate.gov)    Don't see any chance of that policy being repealed anytime soon.  

[LakelandGator]

On 1/23/2023 at 9:56 PM, VeniceIndiansFootball said:

I find it funny how someone named "LakelandGator" is so quick on the draw to condemn Venice for getting 2 transfers, while conveniently forgetting that Lakeland broke the Polk County record for transfers in a single season last year at SEVENTEEN! 

Can you even count to 17 fool?

I couldn't care less how many transfers you or any school gets. I laughed at that 4-star from Plantation nonsense.

The real story here is the hypocrisy by a program claiming "It's just different here". Yeah buddy it's different alright. Different bull****, same smell.

 

 

[LakelandGator]

On 1/23/2023 at 11:54 PM, Ray Icaza said:

You have a valid argument but it is diminished when you exaggerate the facts. 

Call it what it is Ray, a butt hurt lie.

They came into the 4S title game cocky and got sent him with their tail between the legs. If Bill Castle had less class the score would have been at least 7 points more than it was.

Lakeland got a total of 3 kids from Lake Gibson, and a 4th kid who had enrolled at LG during the offseason but never played a down for them. The only reason those kids left LG was because of the coaching turmoil and firing. If that doesn't happen we are not having this conversation.

[Ray Icaza]

11 minutes ago, Dr. D said:

Your memory is pretty good.  It was in 2012-13 that Sen. Kelli Stargel (R-Lakeland) filed bills designed to "refocus" the FHSAA and erode its authority to oversee high school sports in Florida, effectively putting the FHSAA on notice.  It was actually in 2016 when Florida passed legislation that created a statewide Controlled Open Enrollment (COE) policy that requires all 67 school districts to participate and includes both inter- and intra-district transfers.  Chapter 1002 Section 31 - 2016 Florida Statutes - The Florida Senate (flsenate.gov)    Don't see any chance of that policy being repealed anytime soon.  

Exactly right, that is why pissing and moaning about it year after year solves nothing.  Each school needs to figure out how they want to participate/compete in this environment.  Coach Beek from Poinciana decided it was best for his program to go independent, construct a manageable schedule and work hard to achieve success.  He said he will follow that plan for another year and with continued success he will re-evaluate what his next step will be.  This is just one example of how to begin building a team that was known as a perennial loser rather than sitting around crying in your beer.  Each and every HS has that same opportunity and should realize this transfer problem is not going away so come up with a strategy that is beneficial to your team. 

 

[Ray Icaza]

16 minutes ago, LakelandGator said:

Call it what it is Ray, a butt hurt lie.

They came into the 4S title game cocky and got sent him with their tail between the legs. If Bill Castle had less class the score would have been at least 7 points more than it was.

Lakeland got a total of 3 kids from Lake Gibson, and a 4th kid who had enrolled at LG during the offseason but never played a down for them. The only reason those kids left LG was because of the coaching turmoil and firing. If that doesn't happen we are not having this conversation.

Again, facts are stubborn.  Your QB came from Ridge, you got other kids from Bartow, Kathleen and elsewhere.  Not here to criticize just to point out when one is blinded by bias. 

[Perspective]

3 hours ago, Ray Icaza said:

Exactly right, that is why pissing and moaning about it year after year solves nothing.  Each school needs to figure out how they want to participate/compete in this environment.  Coach Beek from Poinciana decided it was best for his program to go independent, construct a manageable schedule and work hard to achieve success.  He said he will follow that plan for another year and with continued success he will re-evaluate what his next step will be.  This is just one example of how to begin building a team that was known as a perennial loser rather than sitting around crying in your beer.  Each and every HS has that same opportunity and should realize this transfer problem is not going away so come up with a strategy that is beneficial to your team. 

 

Ray, for the most part, I agree with everything you just said.   But when you say "Each school needs to figure out how they want to participate/compete in this environment," you've got to address the elephant in the room.   I think we all agree that you can no longer be a top-tier school (from a football standpoint) if you rely solely on the kids who live in your district.  You need transfers.  So, the real question is whether you're disciplined enough to take the time to slowly build up a program that naturally attracts transfers or, alternatively, whether you're going to work high school football's equivalent of the 'dark web' and engage in subtle and not-so-subtle recruiting efforts to jump into (and stay) at that higher level. 

I have all the respect in the world for the programs that do it the first way and all the disdain for those who do it the second way. 

[VeniceIndianFan]

2 hours ago, LakelandGator said:

Can you even count to 17 fool?

I couldn't care less how many transfers you or any school gets. I laughed at that 4-star from Plantation nonsense.

The real story here is the hypocrisy by a program claiming "It's just different here". Yeah buddy it's different alright. Different bull****, same smell.

 

 

By all means, please continue bringing up irrelevant topics to bolster your argument. You're just howling at the moon. Nobody brought up or said anything about, "it's just different here." You don't have anything of substance to say, so you continue to bring up irrelevant things to spit on our program instead of forming an argument based on facts. The good news is that nobody will ever mistake you for being a brain surgeon! "Fool."

[VeniceIndianFan]

2 hours ago, LakelandGator said:

Call it what it is Ray, a butt hurt lie.

They came into the 4S title game cocky and got sent him with their tail between the legs. If Bill Castle had less class the score would have been at least 7 points more than it was.

Lakeland got a total of 3 kids from Lake Gibson, and a 4th kid who had enrolled at LG during the offseason but never played a down for them. The only reason those kids left LG was because of the coaching turmoil and firing. If that doesn't happen we are not having this conversation.

Skyway has an entire list on his timeline of all of the transfers Lakeland received in 2022, and it is much more than just 4. 

[Ray Icaza]

3 hours ago, Perspective said:

Ray, for the most part, I agree with everything you just said.   But when you say "Each school needs to figure out how they want to participate/compete in this environment," you've got to address the elephant in the room.   I think we all agree that you can no longer be a top-tier school (from a football standpoint) if you rely solely on the kids who live in your district.  You need transfers.  So, the real question is whether you're disciplined enough to take the time to slowly build up a program that naturally attracts transfers or, alternatively, whether you're going to work high school football's equivalent of the 'dark web' and engage in subtle and not-so-subtle recruiting efforts to jump into (and stay) at that higher level. 

I have all the respect in the world for the programs that do it the first way and all the disdain for those who do it the second way. 

Whether they realize it or not, each school is in control.  Some choose the path that earns your respect while others choose the path that earns your disdain; a conscious decision is made and whichever path they choose they will have to live with it.   I think the vast majority of programs in the top 10% do adhere to the rules and still get transfers; the top 1% programs I question/wonder how they do it.  Not here to smear anyone but are those few coaches really that good??

[VeniceIndianFan]

9 hours ago, LakelandGator said:

Call it what it is Ray, a butt hurt lie.

They came into the 4S title game cocky and got sent him with their tail between the legs. If Bill Castle had less class the score would have been at least 7 points more than it was.

Lakeland got a total of 3 kids from Lake Gibson, and a 4th kid who had enrolled at LG during the offseason but never played a down for them. The only reason those kids left LG was because of the coaching turmoil and firing. If that doesn't happen we are not having this conversation.

 A grand total of 4 transfers? Lakeland went and raided every single school around them and built one of their best football teams in school history off of it. If you want to attribute success to having a great coach, then I am on board with that idea as Bill Castle's retirement is very saddening for the game of HSFB. Between 3 and 6 transfers a year for a "winning" program, is considered normal. 10-15 is gaming the system. 

[VeniceIndianFan]

On 1/23/2023 at 9:07 PM, PinellasFB said:

I dont know what is the point of stacking a HS team with cherry picked players from other teams?  I mean of course you will beat everybody who uses only players from their zone (that they can hang on to).  To me, the joy of high school ball is your school rises and falls depending upon the group of kids you have moving through your program any given four year period.  Once in a while you will get a very special group that puts in a run for your team that will be remembered and talked about for years.  That shit doesnt happen anymore now that teams just get transfers in.  The rich stay rich and poor stay poor.  How can you feel good about each year when its done with transfers instead of kids moving through your program?  I hate it but I know I'm preaching to the choir here but of course there are those on this board that want to win 100-0 with these transfers over your decimated team.  That part I will never understand.

 

[Nulli Secundus]

12 hours ago, VeniceIndiansFootball said:

 

[Perspective]

18 hours ago, Ray Icaza said:

Whether they realize it or not, each school is in control.  Some choose the path that earns your respect while others choose the path that earns your disdain; a conscious decision is made and whichever path they choose they will have to live with it.   I think the vast majority of programs in the top 10% do adhere to the rules and still get transfers; the top 1% programs I question/wonder how they do it.  Not here to smear anyone but are those few coaches really that good??

Well, they're either good at coaching or good at recruiting/attracting, or both.  

[Perspective]

13 hours ago, VeniceIndiansFootball said:

 A grand total of 4 transfers? Lakeland went and raided every single school around them and built one of their best football teams in school history off of it. If you want to attribute success to having a great coach, then I am on board with that idea as Bill Castle's retirement is very saddening for the game of HSFB. Between 3 and 6 transfers a year for a "winning" program, is considered normal. 10-15 is gaming the system. 

VIF, I'm not defending Lakeland's program, but according to this thread alone, Venice has picked up a something-star QB from South Plantation, a DT from IMG, a 5-star CB from Riverview and a 4-star QB from IMG -- and it's not even the end of January yet!   Can you understand why some people out there feel the same way about Venice that you feel about Lakeland?   

[VeniceIndianFan]

55 minutes ago, Perspective said:

VIF, I'm not defending Lakeland's program, but according to this thread alone, Venice has picked up a something-star QB from South Plantation, a DT from IMG, a 5-star CB from Riverview and a 4-star QB from IMG -- and it's not even the end of January yet!   Can you understand why some people out there feel the same way about Venice that you feel about Lakeland?   

The difference is that I have no problem admitting that Venice gets transfers. Every winning program today does. Venice is no different. I didn't see that they got a QB from IMG or the CB, so my apologies if I came off as being dishonest. Look, I'm not a fan of LakelandGator and his "Sarasota County Cockster," or, "can you count to 17?" or, "Lakeland only got 4 transfers in 2022," nonsense. It's dishonest at best to think that Lakeland does not at least attract talent in their area. Venice does, too. We had 6 transfers last year. I'm not gloating about it, not trying to diminish or spit on other programs, it's just the truth that winning attracts talent.  And for the record, I think IMG will be just fine losing their defensive tackle. Not going to cry a single tear for them. Their schedule is regimented around football and they attract talent from around the globe. They will be just fine. Well, as long as they don't have to play Madison County, of course! 

[Ray Icaza]

53 minutes ago, Perspective said:

VIF, I'm not defending Lakeland's program, but according to this thread alone, Venice has picked up a something-star QB from South Plantation, a DT from IMG, a 5-star CB from Riverview and a 4-star QB from IMG -- and it's not even the end of January yet!   Can you understand why some people out there feel the same way about Venice that you feel about Lakeland?   

An example of your proverbial "Elephant in the Room"?  You see, I am not forgetting about the Elephant because he isn't merely in the room, he is here to stay and this school has made a choice on how to deal with him today, tomorrow and into the future.