Football Advisory Committee items

[Ray Icaza]

2 hours ago, Perspective said:

Ray, I appreciate your position, but let me make sure I've got this fairy tale story straight: 

Once upon a time, someone had a problem with the FHSAA, so they introduced legislation to change the way things worked in terms of who gets to go to what school.  And they were successful in convincing the king to turn the legislation into law.  And the new law essentially took away certain powers previously vested in the FHSAA.  A few years passed, and not the least bit surprising to many of the people who live in the kingdom, the new rule created more problems than it solved.   So, now, the very group that created the problems in the first place, the legislature, has decided to change the laws again -- only this time, instead of simply changing the rules again (perhaps a battle they don't think they can win), they want to make the FHSAA fully subservient and relatively powerless by letting the king choose the lords who get to make the rules that the FHSAA (and any other similar organization that wants to oversee jousting tournaments and such) has to follow.    

I'm all about giving peace a chance, but something tells me that this story isn't going to have a 'happily ever after' ending.   

Keep up the good fight thinking the real fairy tale is this problem will fix itself. 

[Jambun82]

2 hours ago, nolebull813 said:

Hopefully none thanks to our Gov.  We don’t ever want that NCAA swimming debacle where a Sarasota native woman was robbed of a national title by some piece of crap dude!! 

Great point Nolebull813. 

[Jambun82]

4 hours ago, Perspective said:

Ray, I appreciate your position, but let me make sure I've got this fairy tale story straight: 

Once upon a time, someone had a problem with the FHSAA, so they introduced legislation to change the way things worked in terms of who gets to go to what school.  And they were successful in convincing the king to turn the legislation into law.  And the new law essentially took away certain powers previously vested in the FHSAA.  A few years passed, and not the least bit surprising to many of the people who live in the kingdom, the new rule created more problems than it solved.   So, now, the very group that created the problems in the first place, the legislature, has decided to change the laws again -- only this time, instead of simply changing the rules again (perhaps a battle they don't think they can win), they want to make the FHSAA fully subservient and relatively powerless by letting the king choose the lords who get to make the rules that the FHSAA (and any other similar organization that wants to oversee jousting tournaments and such) has to follow.    

I'm all about giving peace a chance, but something tells me that this story isn't going to have a 'happily ever after' ending.   

I have never seen anyone use some many words and say nothing of value and substance as the message board poster known as Perspective. This man definitely choose the right profession for his "talents." 

[Perspective]

3 hours ago, LakelandGator said:

We agree on pretty everything here, which may be a first. 

Do you follow Plant basketball as well? They travel over here tonight to face nationally ranked Winter Haven in the boys playoffs Round 2.

 

 

 

If I were someone else on this board, I'd tell you that you owe me a debt of gratitude for educating you to the point where you now can see the light.     But, that's not my shtick.   

I've only seen Plant play basketball once this year, but it was recently.  They are fundamentally sound and have a couple of good shooters, but my guess is that they will get overwhelmed by a talented/athletic team.   It could get ugly early at Winter Haven. 

[Perspective]

41 minutes ago, Jambun82 said:

I have never seen anyone use some many words and say nothing of value and substance as the message board poster known as Perspective. This man definitely choose the right profession for his "talents." 

Interesting comment.   Just curious, what did I do or say to you that now makes you feel so threatened?  

[Perspective]

3 hours ago, nolebull813 said:

Hopefully none thanks to our Gov.  We don’t ever want that NCAA swimming debacle where a Sarasota native woman was robbed of a national title by some piece of crap dude!! 

For what it's worth, I don't believe that genetically/biologically created males ought to be completing against genetically/biologically created females in any sport.  That said, I guess I don't have enough hatred in me to call someone a "piece of crap dude" simply because they made a decision to transition from one sex to the other for reasons that I am confidant I will never understand.  Just curious, do you know the person, or is your assessment based solely on their decision to compete as a female? 

[Perspective]

2 hours ago, Ray Icaza said:

Keep up the good fight thinking the real fairy tale is this problem will fix itself. 

Ray, help me out here:  what, exactly, is motivating the legislature to make the change as to how the governing board for the FHSAA is selected?  I truly don't know and would love to be educated.  

[Ray Icaza]

1 hour ago, Perspective said:

Ray, help me out here:  what, exactly, is motivating the legislature to make the change as to how the governing board for the FHSAA is selected?  I truly don't know and would love to be educated.  

What motivated said body to enact Senate Bill 8B and House Bill 7B?  I don't know the answer, but it appears to have wide support from coaches at UM, UF and FSU along with their athletes.  My inability to answer your question and educate you doesn't detract from the results.  My guess is they have a plan, a goal and whether for good or bad remains to be seen.  My hope is that better coordination/communication between a FHSAA governing board and the current legislature will bring about positive change in the competitive balance in HS football.  That is it, though I do appreciate your skepticism.

[LakelandGator]

2 hours ago, Perspective said:

 

I've only seen Plant play basketball once this year, but it was recently.  They are fundamentally sound and have a couple of good shooters, but my guess is that they will get overwhelmed by a talented/athletic team.   It could get ugly early at Winter Haven. 

WH by 27  

[Perspective]

9 hours ago, LakelandGator said:

WH by 27  

So, I wasn't wrong, huh?      That's a good, old-fashioned azz-whooping.  

WH must be loaded with talent - both boys and girls (but each playing for their appropriate, respective team).     Winter Haven/Columbus in the boys 7A finals? 

[Perspective]

9 hours ago, Ray Icaza said:

What motivated said body to enact Senate Bill 8B and House Bill 7B?  I don't know the answer, but it appears to have wide support from coaches at UM, UF and FSU along with their athletes.  My inability to answer your question and educate you doesn't detract from the results.  My guess is they have a plan, a goal and whether for good or bad remains to be seen.  My hope is that better coordination/communication between a FHSAA governing board and the current legislature will bring about positive change in the competitive balance in HS football.  That is it, though I do appreciate your skepticism.

Ray, I'm not sure we're on the same page.   I could be wrong, but I thought Senate Bill 8-B (and House Bill 7B) had to do with NIL stuff (basically doing away with the law on the books in Florida that prohibited compensation of athletes for NIL and allowing the State of Florida to participate on an equal playing field with other states).   And it does not surprise me that there was much support for this bill, especially from the coaches at the state universities. 

HB225, on the other hand, has to do with athletic associations, such as the FHSAA, and how their board of directors are determined (among other things).  This is the bill that I thought we've been talking about.   If not, my apologies. 

[nolebull813]

11 hours ago, Perspective said:

For what it's worth, I don't believe that genetically/biologically created males ought to be completing against genetically/biologically created females in any sport.  That said, I guess I don't have enough hatred in me to call someone a "piece of crap dude" simply because they made a decision to transition from one sex to the other for reasons that I am confidant I will never understand.  Just curious, do you know the person, or is your assessment based solely on their decision to compete as a female? 

He is a “piece of crap” because he stole glory and accomplishments from real women because he couldn’t cut it in the men’s division. He denied a real women the right to be called National Champion. That’s garbage. The NCAA is garbage for allowing it. This man is an all time scum bag. I don’t care if people want to mutilate themselves and play pretend or whatever. But I will call it out when that play time and imagination starts to have real world impact. And in this case, he is robbing real women of athletic accomplishments. And that’s crap

[Perspective]

16 minutes ago, nolebull813 said:

He is a “piece of crap” because he stole glory and accomplishments from real women because he couldn’t cut it in the men’s division. He denied a real women the right to be called National Champion. That’s garbage. The NCAA is garbage for allowing it. This man is an all time scum bag. I don’t care if people want to mutilate themselves and play pretend or whatever. But I will call it out when that play time and imagination starts to have real world impact. And in this case, he is robbing real women of athletic accomplishments. And that’s crap

Serious question for you (one that I do not know the answer to, so I'm not trying to bait you):  having made the transition from male to female (for whatever reasons that I know I'll never understand), was this person eligible to compete with the men?  If not, were the only two choices available to either compete with women or not compete at all? 

Again, don't assume that I agree with or support the NCAA's decision on this issue.  I don't.  But if someone has devoted their entire life to a sport and their only two options are to compete against the sex opposite from the one they were born or give up the sport completely, I can understand how difficult their decision would have been.  It seems like the lion's share of the venom ought to be directed against the entity that forced this decision upon a 20-21 year old college student and not directly on the student. 

By the way, do you really think this person went through all the physical and emotional pain associated with a sex-change just to win an NCAA swimming championship?  

Just my two cents. 

[Hwy17]

21 hours ago, Perspective said:

Just out of curiosity, for both you and Hwy17, what are the issues that are unique to smaller schools that the FHSAA has refused or been reluctant to address? 

You do observe that the SSAC and other independent conferences are composed of small schools, the majority of which are private schools.  I only know of a few public schools that have been allowed in the SSAC. Yet more and more are going the independent route or switching associations. Why is this? There has been a feeling of not being represented or heard by the small public schools for a while now.  Your question would be better answered by taking to some of them than me. It's clear to me however that these schools are leaving for a reason.  

On a side note,  SSAC members, most of them anyway,  still remain FHSAA members too. Exactly how that works I don't know. 

[Ray Icaza]

1 hour ago, Perspective said:

Ray, I'm not sure we're on the same page.   I could be wrong, but I thought Senate Bill 8-B (and House Bill 7B) had to do with NIL stuff (basically doing away with the law on the books in Florida that prohibited compensation of athletes for NIL and allowing the State of Florida to participate on an equal playing field with other states).   And it does not surprise me that there was much support for this bill, especially from the coaches at the state universities. 

HB225, on the other hand, has to do with athletic associations, such as the FHSAA, and how their board of directors are determined (among other things).  This is the bill that I thought we've been talking about.   If not, my apologies. 

Again, I certainly agree with the skepticism that exists by opponents like yourself as there are plenty reasons to be skeptical of all government bodies.  I think I have exhausted my openness to try a different approach and though I know the bills I quoted have nothing to do directly with the subject at hand (NIL vs FHSAA  governing body), I used the example for a reason.  The legislature made NIL in FL a quagmire initially, but they managed to come back and rectify the situation.  Hopefully that can repeat itself in this other arena as the original sin was theirs in 2011.

[Ray Icaza]

1 hour ago, Perspective said:

Serious question for you (one that I do not know the answer to, so I'm not trying to bait you):  having made the transition from male to female (for whatever reasons that I know I'll never understand), was this person eligible to compete with the men?  If not, were the only two choices available to either compete with women or not compete at all? 

Again, don't assume that I agree with or support the NCAA's decision on this issue.  I don't.  But if someone has devoted their entire life to a sport and their only two options are to compete against the sex opposite from the one they were born or give up the sport completely, I can understand how difficult their decision would have been.  It seems like the lion's share of the venom ought to be directed against the entity that forced this decision upon a 20-21 year old college student and not directly on the student. 

By the way, do you really think this person went through all the physical and emotional pain associated with a sex-change just to win an NCAA swimming championship?  

Just my two cents. 

My two cents is the real question to be resolved is that of "FAIRNESS".  Multiple reasons for men or women undergoing this procedure is really irrelevant.  But the facts are you find men that do it and compete against women have won state championships in wrestling, track and field, swimming, etc.. around the country.  I have yet to see the opposite where a women that converted has managed to beat men.  Perspective, if you have an example to disprove this offer it up and if not do you think given this fact it is "FAIR"?  Athletic competition should occur on an even playing field.

[LakelandGator]

2 hours ago, Perspective said:

So, I wasn't wrong, huh?      That's a good, old-fashioned azz-whooping.  

WH must be loaded with talent - both boys and girls (but each playing for their appropriate, respective team).     Winter Haven/Columbus in the boys 7A finals? 

I must admit you were right again and we are starting to agree a lot, which concerns me considering the battles we have had on the site. 

But in all seriousness, both WH programs are elite in basketball. The young women more so than the young men. WH ladies have won at least 5 state titles to my memory. The men on the other hand have been runner-up about the same number of times, including 2022. Will the men get that elusive trophy this year?

Many of us in Polk hope so, but unfortunately that school in south Florida named after the Italian explorer will be favored to beat WH and send them home with another 2nd place trophy. 

 

[Perspective]

42 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:

Again, I certainly agree with the skepticism that exists by opponents like yourself as there are plenty reasons to be skeptical of all government bodies.  I think I have exhausted my openness to try a different approach and though I know the bills I quoted have nothing to do directly with the subject at hand (NIL vs FHSAA  governing body), I used the example for a reason.  The legislature made NIL in FL a quagmire initially, but they managed to come back and rectify the situation.  Hopefully that can repeat itself in this other arena as the original sin was theirs in 2011.

Ray, the clouds are lifting and I think I now understand where you are coming from.   Your point is simply this (I think):  The legislature created the problem and therefore it is up to the legislature to come up with a solution for the problem.   I don't have an issue with this position (if, indeed, this is what you've been saying).   I guess my concern is the proposed solution from the legislature is to punt and essentially turn over the legislative responsibility of governing high school athletics to a board appointed entirely by the executive branch.  You see this as a possible step in the right direction.  I see it as a further step in the wrong direction because it further politicizes something that, in my opinion, ought to be as free from politics as possible (i.e., high school athletics).   That said, I sure hope that time proves you right. 

[Hwy17]

Here is something that occurred to me as I thought about the bill to make FHSAA an appointed board by the governor.  The FHSAA is a voluntary organization made up of both public and private schools. The FHSAA goes back to 1920 and pre-dates the current state constitution. The FHSAA was not created by the state legislature through statute. In fact, it wasn't until the 1980s that the state legislature recognized the FHSAA as the governing body for interschoolatic sports and the language of such doesn't state that public schools have to join; it is more or less implied.  While the state legislature can mandate policy for public schools,  they cannot do so for private schools.  I would argue that given the history of the FHSAA the state legislature has no authority to dissolve or to interfere with how the FHSAA is set up. The only authority that the legislature has would be to form a new entity for public schools only.

[Perspective]

32 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:

My two cents is the real question to be resolved is that of "FAIRNESS".  Multiple reasons for men or women undergoing this procedure is really irrelevant.  But the facts are you find men that do it and compete against women have won state championships in wrestling, track and field, swimming, etc.. around the country.  I have yet to see the opposite where a women that converted has managed to beat men.  Perspective, if you have an example to disprove this offer it up and if not do you think given this fact it is "FAIR"?  Athletic competition should occur on an even playing field.

Ray, I am not aware of any instances where a biological female transitioned to a male and then competed with males in a particular sport and I'm certainly not aware of any instances in which such a person has then beaten the men.  (I don't think Billie Jean King beating Bobby Riggs in tennis counts.  ) 

Candidly, other than the NCAA swimmer, I'm not aware of other examples where the opposite is true (male-turned-female beating females), but I don't doubt that it has happened. 

I'm all about fairness.   Look at my comments in this thread.  I have stated my position (which I believe is a fair one):

"For what it's worth, I don't believe that genetically/biologically created males ought to be completing against genetically/biologically created females in any sport."

I also stated that I don't support the NCAA's decision to allow the swimmer to compete.

All of that said, in my perfect world, athletics would be as all-inclusive as possible and as economically feasible. 

[Perspective]

1 hour ago, Hwy17 said:

Here is something that occurred to me as I thought about the bill to make FHSAA an appointed board by the governor.  The FHSAA is a voluntary organization made up of both public and private schools. The FHSAA goes back to 1920 and pre-dates the current state constitution. The FHSAA was not created by the state legislature through statute. In fact, it wasn't until the 1980s that the state legislature recognized the FHSAA as the governing body for interschoolatic sports and the language of such doesn't state that public schools have to join; it is more or less implied.  While the state legislature can mandate policy for public schools,  they cannot do so for private schools.  I would argue that given the history of the FHSAA the state legislature has no authority to dissolve or to interfere with how the FHSAA is set up. The only authority that the legislature has would be to form a new entity for public schools only.

Interesting thought.   Here's the problem, as I see it.   Over 40% of the FHSAA's  $6 million budget comes from 'athletic competitions,' which I understand to mean post-season tournaments.   That's around $2.5 million.  The vast majority of that comes from public schools.  A similar amount comes from corporate sponsorships.   If the public schools can't participate (in the tournaments or even in the FHSAA), most of that tournament income and sponsorship money goes away and I don't see the FHSAA surviving. 

[LakelandGator]

19 hours ago, nolebull813 said:

 none 

That was my point, which you obviously didn't get.

Bottom line is that the gov and people like you are using right winged scare tactics and politics once again. 

Keep that crap out of HS sports.

 

 

 

[anonimis]

Item 4 is the only thing that makes sense. Margin of victory must be factored in if there isn't a matchmaking system. The other items just further water down the title of state champion and decreases the competitiveness of games.

[Hwy17]

46 minutes ago, Perspective said:

Interesting thought.   Here's the problem, as I see it.   Over 40% of the FHSAA's  $6 million budget comes from 'athletic competitions,' which I understand to mean post-season tournaments.   That's around $2.5 million.  The vast majority of that comes from public schools.  A similar amount comes from corporate sponsorships.   If the public schools can't participate (in the tournaments or even in the FHSAA), most of that tournament income and sponsorship money goes away and I don't see the FHSAA surviving. 

 

44 minutes ago, LakelandGator said:

That was my point, which you obviously didn't get.

Bottom line is that the gov and people like you are using right winged scare tactics and politics once again. 

Keep that crap out of HS sports.

 

 

 

If the desire is to separate public and private schools or to bring all public schools under an agency controlled by the state government, (which the legislature could), then at least be transparent about it.  

As stated, the FHSAA is a volunteer organization created by the schools and is over a century old.  The state constitution allows for home rule and lets local governments, cities, counties, and school districts, to enter into agreements with other public or private parties.  That really is all the FHSAA is in reality.   For the legislature to take over a private organization like the FHSAA,  I see such as unconstitutional and also against conservative principles.

[Perspective]

15 minutes ago, Hwy17 said:

 

If the desire is to separate public and private schools or to bring all public schools under an agency controlled by the state government, (which the legislature could), then at least be transparent about it.  

As stated, the FHSAA is a volunteer organization created by the schools and is over a century old.  The state constitution allows for home rule and lets local governments, cities, counties, and school districts, to enter into agreements with other public or private parties.  That really is all the FHSAA is in reality.   For the legislature to take over a private organization like the FHSAA,  I see such as unconstitutional and also against conservative principles.

To your point, this is from the FHSAA website: 

"A Non-Profit 501c(3) Private Corporation, the Florida High School Athletic Association was founded on April 9, 1920 by a group of 29 high school principals who met at Peabody Hall on the University of Florida campus in Gainesville. The Florida Legislature, in 1997, gave the FHSAA statutory recognition as the official governing body for interscholastic athletics in Florida."