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Playoff point system has major flaws


badbird

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I want to add something to all of this.

My understanding as it has come to be is that the FHSAA originally wanted to seed the teams 1-8 regardless of the fact if they were district champion or not basically if you are the 2nd best team in your region, you get the 2nd seed. FHSAA Football advisory committee had other ideas and wanted district champions to get a seed 1-4 first before anyone else. So in the case in like Class 5A-Region 1, Suwannee could win the district but would be left out of the playoffs because say Bolles or even Mosley is better. So I just want to put this out there, that some compromises were made with the advisory committee which is composed of head football coaches from around the state. 

http://www.fhsaa.org/gov/football-advisory-committee

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15 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

I said this from the beginning a lot of this before the system was ever implemented, but nothing is official in terms of who is in and out so let's see it through first before we say we should end it.

One of the reasons why it was suggested that we should go to this system is that teams would schedule harder teams instead of sticking with the same old teams. I think we have seen some of that. But I asked a million times, but nobody ever answered, how did the old system discourage playing tougher teams? If you lost the out of district "tough" game, you still could make the playoffs with no harm done to your playoff chances. Now, if you play a tough team and lose, you actually hurt your chances on making the playoffs. As some have pointed out, it is better to play an 0-10 team and win than lose to an 10-0 team.

I warned that the system is going to be very complicated and the average fan won't be able to understand in comparison to the district standings. I still think that is true.

I was told every game would matter (they do), but the team's ranking will depend on something that a coach can't control (how a former opponent does for their other 9 games).

I continue to argue that a system that moves up successful programs and moves down unsuccessful programs would make a better system overall (District champs/runner ups or current system) while using population as a base.

I am concerned about seeding in this playoff bracket. If #1 vs #8 and #4 vs #5 (some of these #5 seeds the 2nd best team in the region, but play in the same district as the #1 seed). It would make more sense to me to re-seed after each round, so that the #1 seed always plays the lowest seed left.
 

 

That system would punish a team like Columbia or St Augustine who don't receive the type of players to beat a Miami Central type of team and leaves teams with no real chance of ever winning state unless they catch a lucky break one year 

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13 minutes ago, Joshua Wilson said:

I want to add something to all of this.

My understanding as it has come to be is that the FHSAA originally wanted to seed the teams 1-8 regardless of the fact if they were district champion or not basically if you are the 2nd best team in your region, you get the 2nd seed. FHSAA Football advisory committee had other ideas and wanted district champions to get a seed 1-4 first before anyone else. So in the case in like Class 5A-Region 1, Suwannee could win the district but would be left out of the playoffs because say Bolles or even Mosley is better. So I just want to put this out there, that some compromises were made with the advisory committee which is composed of head football coaches from around the state. 

http://www.fhsaa.org/gov/football-advisory-committee

That would be interesting especially considering at rate we going Lee likely finishes as 1 seed but if Columbia wins out we could finish with more points than Lee so that would have been interesting 

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6 hours ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

That system would punish a team like Columbia or St Augustine who don't receive the type of players to beat a Miami Central type of team and leaves teams with no real chance of ever winning state unless they catch a lucky break one year 

I don't like it either because if were district champion our first round shouldn't be against a team that won 4 str8 titles 2 years ago or against a team who just won states a year ago and is no where near down this year but because all of them are in the same district they all get to get in that's not fair other format was better where only two teams from a district could. Get in now u are telling me based on points 4 teams from 1 district could get in that's absurd. I don't like it 

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6 hours ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

That system would punish a team like Columbia or St Augustine who don't receive the type of players to beat a Miami Central type of team and leaves teams with no real chance of ever winning state unless they catch a lucky break one year 

No system will be fair to all. The old system punished teams that played in very tough districts like the 6A Miami district and rewarded some awful teams that benefited from playing in 3 team districts. 

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2 minutes ago, "PANTHER NATiON" (WE HERE) said:

I don't like it either because if were district champion our first round shouldn't be against a team that won 4 str8 titles 2 years ago or against a team who just won states a year ago and is no where near down this year but because all of them are in the same district they all get to get in that's not fair other format was better where only two teams from a district could. Get in now u are telling me based on points 4 teams from 1 district could get in that's absurd. I don't like it 

Oh i was talking about gatormans projected idea

His idea would have all the elite teams basically in same class and we likely thrown there because we have just enough wins to be p

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59 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Thats why a change was made lol 

If u win your in that's the way it should be I would have preferred they took some teams out of the district versus changing the format idc if your 2-8 or 5-5 if u win the necessary games that qualify for u to get in then you deserve to get in. This new format is beyond horrible what's the point in winning your district only to play teams far far better then u in the first round where as winning your district suppose to be a advantage 

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5 minutes ago, "PANTHER NATiON" (WE HERE) said:

If u win your in that's the way it should be I would have preferred they took some teams out of the district versus changing the format idc if your 2-8 or 5-5 if u win the necessary games that qualify for u to get in then you deserve to get in. This new format is beyond horrible what's the point in winning your district only to play teams far far better then u in the first round where as winning your district suppose to be a advantage 

Dillard your team is in a bad situation but not every area of state is set up like that, what they should considering is maybe realignment of some districts to level some things 

 

 

One major thing i like is that every game counts, before when i heard oh these just non conference games so they mean nothing i wanted to punch these people, every game should matter, if game don't count then why show up at all,  i personally have never cared how Columbia is ranked,  i would take 10 state championships over 1 national championship in a heartbeat, my only goal has ever been to at least get a shot at a championship, even if we lose i rather lose to the best team in the class,  not just lose to a team i have no doubt we can defeat so for me i have never really cared wether or not we impress with our schedule but i always looked at games the same, wether they officially counted or not they counted to me

 

I know i may have gotten slightly off topic but my point i tried to make is every game should count either for or against a team, that's what i hated with the old system as well as teams like Leon or Eastside getting in because of 3 team districts 

 

At end of day the best teams should be in the playoffs 

 

Plus i personally hated the district up and down system that determined who hosted the playoff games,  it should be the best teams hosting not some system that gives it based on what district you have in the alignment 

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The important thing to me is getting the teams in the playoffs that deserve to be there.  If a team wins their district they should be in but once you're in then it is about the best team moving forward.  If you have to play a team in the first round that you can't beat then you were not going to win that ring anyway.  For a team to win the championship they have to be an exceptional  team and usually catch a lucky break along the way.  But if you get in the playoffs you have a chance maybe you are the one that catches a lucky break.

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20 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Dillard your team is in a bad situation but not every area of state is set up like that, what they should considering is maybe realignment of some districts to level some things 

 

 

One major thing i like is that every game counts, before when i heard oh these just non conference games so they mean nothing i wanted to punch these people, every game should matter, if game don't count then why show up at all,  i personally have never cared how Columbia is ranked,  i would take 10 state championships over 1 national championship in a heartbeat, my only goal has ever been to at least get a shot at a championship, even if we lose i rather lose to the best team in the class,  not just lose to a team i have no doubt we can defeat so for me i have never really cared wether or not we impress with our schedule but i always looked at games the same, wether they officially counted or not they counted to me

 

I know i may have gotten slightly off topic but my point i tried to make is every game should count either for or against a team, that's what i hated with the old system as well as teams like Leon or Eastside getting in because of 3 team districts 

 

At end of day the best teams should be in the playoffs 

 

Plus i personally hated the district up and down system that determined who hosted the playoff games,  it should be the best teams hosting not some system that gives it based on what district you have in the alignment 

Even in the previous alignments they did they still left most of the higher class teams district the same like I said they should put it where it's north vs south and if it is a south vs south matchup let it be for the championship not in round 1 or 2 maybe I hate it because we always have to go threw national powers in the years of 2007 2008 & etc it was st Thomas & since 2012 it's been Miami central & Carol city in our way like it's crazy am I saying I want it easy ? No but the way I feel u shouldn't have to face national ranked competition in the 1st round it's not fair to a normal or slightly above avg team.

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3 minutes ago, Sharkbait said:

The important thing to me is getting the teams in the playoffs that deserve to be there.  If a team wins their district they should be in but once you're in then it is about the best team moving forward.  If you have to play a team in the first round that you can't beat then you were not going to win that ring anyway.  For a team to win the championship they have to be an exceptional  team and usually catch a lucky break along the way.  But if you get in the playoffs you have a chance maybe you are the one that catches a lucky break.

I think it's a little bit more then just playing a team u can't beat that's like psj winning their district only to have to play armwood or cocoa in the first round if they were in your district there is a difference playing a team that maybe better then u and playing a team that's recognized as one of the best in the NATION not in the state or county but nation so basically you have to be one of the best in the NATION just to get out the first round !!????!!!?? Not to win states or the game to get to states but just to get out the first round !!,??? That's str8 foolishness.

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10 minutes ago, "PANTHER NATiON" (WE HERE) said:

Even in the previous alignments they did they still left most of the higher class teams district the same like I said they should put it where it's north vs south and if it is a south vs south matchup let it be for the championship not in round 1 or 2 maybe I hate it because we always have to go threw national powers in the years of 2007 2008 & etc it was st Thomas & since 2012 it's been Miami central & Carol city in our way like it's crazy am I saying I want it easy ? No but the way I feel u shouldn't have to face national ranked competition in the 1st round it's not fair to a normal or slightly above avg team.

I could never see them doing north vs south bc i doubt enough schools would approve of it and personally i would be against it

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4 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

I could never see them doing north vs south bc i doubt enough schools would approve of it and personally i would be against it

The logistics would not work in some of the classifications. Too much travel during the playoffs for some teams would result from this. To be honest, the new system with any team within each region playing any other depending on the regular season, seems pretty good to me. 

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Panther,

In the current system, you might host a great team in the first round (Carrol City, Norland, Northwestern, or Central) if Dillard is district champion. 
In the old system, you would play a great team in the first round (Carrol City, Norland, Northwestern, or Central) if Dillard district champion.

If your concern is playing a great team in the first round, neither the old system nor the new system would fix your concerns. Honestly, I don't know of a system that would simply because your geographical location near Miami there is always going to be a good district with a state/national caliber team. 

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ColumbiaFan,

The system doesn't hurt Columbia any more than it hurts any other team. Columbia hasn't won a state championship in 50 years and hasn't played in a state championship since 1997 so it's not like the current system is helping them win either. At 2000 students, Columbia is on the small end of 7A schools. My system adds "population" to their 2000 student population, while it would "remove" population from poor performing football teams population. So yes, Columbia High might move up to 8A, or just become a large 7A school. This recognizes the fact that student population is not the only factor in determining competitiveness. At the same time, a school with a lack of success would move down to be more competitive and teams that dominant would move up.

I look at Trinity Christian and Bolles moving up from 3A and 4A last year. They are still good teams and most likely will make the playoffs (Bolles is currently not in the playoffs if they started today), but the district is immensely better just because they play Bishop Kenny and Ponte Vedra. Could Trinity Christian/Bolles play against a lot of the average 6A-8A schools and win, yep. But it would be more competitive than when they were playing at the 3A level and never playing any good 3A schools until the 4th round of the playoffs. 

This is also a system that would work well in sports like Girls Volleyball, Baseball, Softball, Soccer, and Basketball. In theory, you could have a successful Boys Basketball team playing at 6A, while the girls program has struggled and is now a 3A. Again, if our goal is to put good games on the playing surface, competitive games (even if they are bad teams) will always be more fun than blowouts against overmatched teams. 

Also Columbia Fan, please note that you can answer multiple messages in one post. 
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Josh,

While I know you might not know, but can't we have district champions and a seeding. Why not allow 4 district champions to be automatically qualified, but use the point system as the seeding? So Suwannee qualifies, but they are the #8 seed. I get the idea that being a district champion matters, but just like the NCAA Basketball bracket, just because you win the conference tournament doesn't mean you get a top seed.

----

 

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34 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

Panther,

In the current system, you might host a great team in the first round (Carrol City, Norland, Northwestern, or Central) if Dillard is district champion. 
In the old system, you would play a great team in the first round (Carrol City, Norland, Northwestern, or Central) if Dillard district champion.

If your concern is playing a great team in the first round, neither the old system nor the new system would fix your concerns. Honestly, I don't know of a system that would simply because your geographical location near Miami there is always going to be a good district with a state/national caliber team. 

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ColumbiaFan,

The system doesn't hurt Columbia any more than it hurts any other team. Columbia hasn't won a state championship in 50 years and hasn't played in a state championship since 1997 so it's not like the current system is helping them win either. At 2000 students, Columbia is on the small end of 7A schools. My system adds "population" to their 2000 student population, while it would "remove" population from poor performing football teams population. So yes, Columbia High might move up to 8A, or just become a large 7A school. This recognizes the fact that student population is not the only factor in determining competitiveness. At the same time, a school with a lack of success would move down to be more competitive and teams that dominant would move up.

I look at Trinity Christian and Bolles moving up from 3A and 4A last year. They are still good teams and most likely will make the playoffs (Bolles is currently not in the playoffs if they started today), but the district is immensely better just because they play Bishop Kenny and Ponte Vedra. Could Trinity Christian/Bolles play against a lot of the average 6A-8A schools and win, yep. But it would be more competitive than when they were playing at the 3A level and never playing any good 3A schools until the 4th round of the playoffs. 

This is also a system that would work well in sports like Girls Volleyball, Baseball, Softball, Soccer, and Basketball. In theory, you could have a successful Boys Basketball team playing at 6A, while the girls program has struggled and is now a 3A. Again, if our goal is to put good games on the playing surface, competitive games (even if they are bad teams) will always be more fun than blowouts against overmatched teams. 

Also Columbia Fan, please note that you can answer multiple messages in one post. 
--------------
Josh,

While I know you might not know, but can't we have district champions and a seeding. Why not allow 4 district champions to be automatically qualified, but use the point system as the seeding? So Suwannee qualifies, but they are the #8 seed. I get the idea that being a district champion matters, but just like the NCAA Basketball bracket, just because you win the conference tournament doesn't mean you get a top seed.

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When someone bangs on the door soon enough it will fall down,  the more chances we get the closer we will get to winning it,  the question isn't if Columbia wins state but when

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32 minutes ago, Cat_Scratch said:

STA would be moved into the top class in Ohio. I believe it's 3 state titles and you automatically move up a class. Florida should do the same. And a team can always petition to move down when they under perform.

Idk why sta is in 7a as only private 

 

6a or 8a would be far more competitive for them district wise and considering they a private I'm sure they could move sta up to 8a without complaint since i doubt sta would really whine about a tougher region,  they seem like a team who would welcome the challenge 

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42 minutes ago, "PANTHER NATiON" (WE HERE) said:

I would petition Dillard moves down to 1a or independent until they build a solid football team sure the community may go in a uproar but atleast we will be playing on a even playing field @ColumbiaHighFan2017class @gatorman-uf I think I should mention it to our AD

Would love to see yall play Pahokee in 1A

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