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My football proposal


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I'm almost complete on it and will soon post it,  I'm just double checking to make sure i have it up to date on the overall doc because i had to make one for each to print it and I'm going to make sure they are in right spot (when i post it if anything looks off ask me so i can see if it's right or just a mistake on my part) 

 

Key points i will announce ahead of time

 

Still 8 classes

 

8a is similar to d1 class in California but slightly different rules and smaller

 

5-7a have districts and the districts range from 5 to 9 but probably average of 6-7 teams in each district 

 

3 districts per region instead of 4

 

1-4a still no districts however they have more teams per region in playoffs 

 

2 regions in classes 1-4a instead of 4 regions

 

 

Every class plays same number of weeks but are set up differently 

 

 

Does this sound interesting 

 

And yes ik some have already seen it and also thank you to everyone who helped me with checking the work

 

It was a long project and i appreciated everyone who helped me

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No:

Either 6 classes, with the only real separation being 1A small, rural public and 2A small privates, with the top 4 classes equally divided (about 100-120 teams in each class); or

 

3 Private School classes, I, II, and "Open" (that way real private schools that have sports as part of rounded curriculum, don't have to compete with fake schools like Champagnet, Oxturd, IMG, etc etc etc), and

4 Public school classes equally divided (again, probably about 120-140 teams each class).

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46 minutes ago, 181pl said:

No:

Either 6 classes, with the only real separation being 1A small, rural public and 2A small privates, with the top 4 classes equally divided (about 100-120 teams in each class); or

 

3 Private School classes, I, II, and "Open" (that way real private schools that have sports as part of rounded curriculum, don't have to compete with fake schools like Champagnet, Oxturd, IMG, etc etc etc), and

4 Public school classes equally divided (again, probably about 120-140 teams each class).

There isn't enough schools to make 3 private school classes

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I spent a fair number of years in Georgia and followed high school football there, and have a number of years of Florida experience.  In all classes in Georgia, teams are assigned to regions and play a certain number of games against region opponents throughout the year.   

I struggle with this concept of the smaller Florida schools not playing anyone in their region and having to drum up their own competition.  Has the rationalization(s) used to justify this approach given the result that was desired?

...concerning the public vs private debate, which drives some of the discussion surrounding classifications.

Am really generalizing here, but I think there is more overall parity in Georgia.   In my opinion, as a whole, public schools take football much more seriously than in Florida.  This is especially evident to me in the more populated areas of Florida.  Outside Buford, public schools in Georgia still have the upper hand over the privates that play in the larger classes. 

No doubt private schools in Florida have some advantages, but I think the domination by some of these privates over public schools would not be seen to the same extent if those same schools were playing in Georgia.  Marist is a VERY old private school in Atlanta with an outstanding football tradition.  And they can certainly "recruit."  They play in 4A amongst a lot of public schools.  They have only won one state title in 25 years.  

I don't think I would be out of line saying that Chaminade and Oxford would dominate a high percentage of public schools in Florida, even those in 7A and 8A.  I can think of a LOT of public school programs in Georgia who could give them a good game, if not beat them. 

Over the years, I have heard some folks in Florida speak of the need to separate the privates.  I've seen a number of gyrations of late to try to balance the playing field.  I don't completely buy it.  Despite the phenomenal talent in Florida, I have seen a LOT of very mediocre public school teams in Florida.  And I sometimes wonder if the folks making these arguments are related to these teams. 

Here's a radical concept :D.  How about focusing energy on getting better and getting the communities behind the teams rather than these constant maneuvers to level the playing field.  And if Florida's loose transfer policy(s) are allowing "superteams" to form, fix the root of the problem.    

When I lived in Georgia, I was amazed at how tied into the communities the local coaches were(outreach activities) and how much support they got in the local communities.  When I lived in Polk County years ago, a lot of people couldn't tell you the name of a certain school's coach, but they could tell you that if you got near their field you would get cussed out by him.  ...sad.    

On a final note, I saw South Sumter had an abysmal season after much success over the years.  And what happened to football in Tallahassee?  Am sure there are a number of factors that played into this, but after living in Georgia, I can say with confidence that the local communities would be offering "lots of help" if that happened there.  Makes me wonder if there are some parallels with Florida's fickle fan population.  

We all know life is not a fair playing field.  Your only option to "win a trophy" in life is usually just to improve yourself, not to "create another classification."  I say let the kids get used to it.  As much as Florida's population continues to grow, we are going to be up to 10 classifications in no time if we cannot figure out others ways to things more competitive.  

 

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South Sumter like Immokalee and other small 1 school towns/counties are not built to be successful every year because they only get what they get and don't take part in the transfer wars that go on in Urban areas.  They graduated a lot so now they have to build it up again.  That is the Cycle at a school in a rural area like Bushnell. 

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1 hour ago, peezy28 said:

South Sumter like Immokalee and other small 1 school towns/counties are not built to be successful every year because they only get what they get and don't take part in the transfer wars that go on in Urban areas.  They graduated a lot so now they have to build it up again.  That is the Cycle at a school in a rural area like Bushnell. 

I see your point and am familiar with both of those areas.  

Peach County is a tiny, rural county in central Georgia.  You could fit 4 Peach County's in Sumter County.  The entire county has a population about the same as that of Immokalee.  There are some very good private schools within driving distance of Peach County who Peach County High has to compete against for athletes.  They routinely play against some strong teams from the Warner Robins/Macon metro area, including Warner Robins High, who has won a mythical national championship.

Colquitt County is a very rural county in southern Georgia that is somewhat geographically isolated.  The total population of the county is about 1.5 times the size of Immokalee, and MUCH smaller than Sumter County.  Historically, Colquitt County HS has played in a brutal region with teams like Lowndes, Valdosta and Camden County.     

Despite the limited talent pools and tough competition, the records of both schools over the past 10 years are always impressive.  Both teams have won multiple state championships and they are ALWAYS very competitive.  There are other stories like these, too.  I guess the question is, "How do they do it?"  and why cannot some of the Florida programs do the same?  

I think the answer to "how?"  is...the local communities rally behind their teams, the youth programs gear the kids for success, and there are intense rivalries with other schools that bring people out to the games (unlike Florida where I think we have lost many good rivalries due to all of the changes in classifications and other politics).  Drive through rural Georgia on a Friday night during football season and you will hear multiple high school football games on the radio at the same time.   

 

 

  

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Need to separate the privates into different classes. And IMG should be playing for state titles. Many of the S. Fla. private schools recruit as well as they do. 

 

Open division for private schools would be awesome. STA, AHP,  IMG, TC, Chaminade, Oxturd, Champaign Tech at the strip mall, etc. etc. etc.

 

Then you could have two small private school classes for real academic schools that don't take anyone that walks through their doors, like Jesuit, Belen, Bolles, and Berkely in Tampa (large class) and then have a class for the hundred or so small Christian schools that play football.

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1 hour ago, 181pl said:

Need to separate the privates into different classes. And IMG should be playing for state titles. Many of the S. Fla. private schools recruit as well as they do. 

 

Open division for private schools would be awesome. STA, AHP,  IMG, TC, Chaminade, Oxturd, Champaign Tech at the strip mall, etc. etc. etc.

 

Then you could have two small private school classes for real academic schools that don't take anyone that walks through their doors, like Jesuit, Belen, Bolles, and Berkely in Tampa (large class) and then have a class for the hundred or so small Christian schools that play football.

1 i only took into account current members of fhsaa,  i didn't add any independents to the classifications i did 

 

2 Bolles and Trinity Christian are both 1 in the same

 

3 i did my open classes with the top teams not just privates because there are several publics that will be as loaded as these privates under new rules 

 

4 there simply isn't enough to do a full class of large school privates

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1 hour ago, 181pl said:

Need to separate the privates into different classes. And IMG should be playing for state titles. Many of the S. Fla. private schools recruit as well as they do. 

 

Open division for private schools would be awesome. STA, AHP,  IMG, TC, Chaminade, Oxturd, Champaign Tech at the strip mall, etc. etc. etc.

 

Then you could have two small private school classes for real academic schools that don't take anyone that walks through their doors, like Jesuit, Belen, Bolles, and Berkely in Tampa (large class) and then have a class for the hundred or so small Christian schools that play football.

Anybody can walk into Belen but kids choose not to go there.. Same as Pace and so on... 

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If the rationale for separating private schools is their unethical use of recruiting to give them an advantage over public schools, would public schools found guilty of unethical practices (such as using ineligible players), thus giving them an unfair advantage, also be included with the private school classes?:D

I'd be willing to wager that a lot of recruiting and other hanky panky takes place at public schools, in football and beyond.  I remember seeing kids from outside Florida showing up at Brandon high and becoming instant state champions/placers on their wrestling team.  Last time I checked, Brandon wrestling has had way more historical success than any private school in the state.  

A while back, our school kicked a first team all state running back out of school, knowing full well it would put us at a great disadvantage coming into the season.  Turns out he competed against us in the playoffs.  How many public schools would have done the same?  I'm sure there are some unscrupulous private schools, but I'm also confident there are plenty that hold their kids to high standards. 

I remember complaints about St Thomas and Chaminade recruiting as far back in the 1970's, when both programs were very successful.    The first time we had a black player dress out on our historically all-white team, the public schools went nuts playing the recruiting card.  It was a big joke for us because he most certainly was not recruited.   

I think one needs to be a bit careful when making generalizations about private schools.  Many of the private schools in Florida have been around for 50 years or more.  In that sense, they are very much "real" schools with very seasoned athletic programs and have paid their dues playing the public schools over the years, even when they were losing.  Glades Central beat the snot out of Tampa Catholic and Chaminade in the 1971 playoffs!  Claiming the present success of the old private schools is a result of recruiting is a slight to the years of hard work the coaches have put in building the programs.   

..and one final point.  Unlike private schools, who have a captive audience, private schools must attract their students.  In that sense, "recruiting" students is very much in the blood of private schools.  Their existence depends on it.  Archbishop Curley in Miami just closed.  Chaminade and Madonna had to merge a while back due to financial challenges. Let's be real, having a good athletic program is a great way to attract students.   So, you cannot completely blame the private schools for trying to attract the best athletes they can.  Sure, they can go overboard.  And those few schools that do seem to be spoiling it for the rest.   

 

 

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https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Uek4pLFDB2j6NUUKczheymyAk6kIq5ejqOgZqvqqMcE/edit?usp=drivesdk

 

Note this is still a rough draft so nothing is set in stone and i plan to take feedback i get and make changes but i want to get a rough thought on what you all feel about this idea

 

Also i explained a few new details in the rules section of the document so be sure to look all the way through 

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6 minutes ago, Cocoa2010 said:

Obviously I was looking for Cocoa and their district would be pure hell for travel. lol

Cocoa longest travel was hour and 20 minutes to Matanzas 

 

Overall all travel would be no more than 2 hours regardless and that may be 1 game a year for a few teams if it was correct 

 

There were a few that had a long travel or 2 but it was either that or a 9 or 10 team district which i feel they would prefer the former so they aren't locked in to having entire schedule in district games lol

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What criteria would be used for determining who is in the "open" class?  It's a fascinating concept, but I see a couple of challenges.  In the fairly recent past, we have seen powerhouse teams fall off drastically when coaches left and/or there was a mass exodus of players.  Flanagan and University School are teams that won state championships and then crashed.  If you end up with one of those crashing teams in the open class, they will get blown out.    

I also think it is problematic to include the smaller private schools in this group.  I think we sometimes overestimate "the private school effect" because we see them blowing out some weaker, big schools.  These teams are often one or two injuries away from becoming B- teams.  They simply don't have the depth to consistently compete against the much larger, elite programs.  St Thomas can hold its own, but its enrollment is about 4 times the size of those 3A programs.        

 

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5 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

What criteria would be used for determining who is in the "open" class?  It's a fascinating concept, but I see a couple of challenges.  In the fairly recent past, we have seen powerhouse teams fall off drastically when coaches left and/or there was a mass exodus of players.  Flanagan and University School are teams that won state championships and then crashed.  If you end up with one of those crashing teams in the open class, they will get blown out.    

I also think it is problematic to include the smaller private schools in this group.  I think we sometimes overestimate "the private school effect" because we see them blowing out some weaker, big schools.  These teams are often one or two injuries away from becoming B- teams.  They simply don't have the depth to consistently compete against the much larger, elite programs.  St Thomas can hold its own, but its enrollment is about 4 times the size of those 3A programs.        

 

What California does is they reclassify the open division every 2 years so if that were to happen they would drop to a different class and be replaced

 

This is just who i put in a starter open class, it would likely change every 2 years 

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24 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

What California does is they reclassify the open division every 2 years so if that were to happen they would drop to a different class and be replaced

 

This is just who i put in a starter open class, it would likely change every 2 years 

Sorry if I am missing something here...

I am putting myself in the shoes of a kid competing in the Open Division on a #14seed, small school.  I finish the year getting destroyed by Miami Northwestern in the first round.  Later I see another team in my classification who I think my team could clearly beat, winning the state championship.  

In the NCAA tournament,  even if one of the lower seeds gets blown out at the dance in the first round, they often are able to say, "Well, at least we won our conference title this year."   If I am that kid, where is my motivation?  Am not saying the main motivation of a kid should be a trophy or medal, but am being realistic, knowing the way many kids think.  

 

 

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4 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

Sorry if I am missing something here...

I am putting myself in the shoes of a kid competing in the Open Division on a #14seed, small school.  I finish the year getting destroyed by Miami Northwestern in the first round.  Later I see another team in my classification who I think my team could clearly beat, winning the state championship.  

In the NCAA tournament,  even if one of the lower seeds gets blown out at the dance in the first round, they often are able to say, "Well, at least we won our conference title this year."   If I am that kid, where is my motivation?  Am not saying the main motivation of a kid should be a trophy or medal, but am being realistic, knowing the way many kids think.  

 

 

Several states use something similar to it though and there's doesn't even do what i did

 

I guarantee every team a playoff spot,  not like that in other similar systems which means no matter what it's determined on the field

 

I remember 2014 when Suwannee made final 4 but we knocked out in first round yet we crushed them week 11

 

It happens but it's decided on the field and if they struggle they will get moved down but take Chaminade as a example 

 

They beat Miramar and BTW (both in open class south region) so even small teams can compete and should a small team lose a few times they will be more motivated to rise up to their competition and make the state better as a whole

 

 

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22 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Several states use something similar to it though and there's doesn't even do what i did

 

I guarantee every team a playoff spot,  not like that in other similar systems which means no matter what it's determined on the field

 

I remember 2014 when Suwannee made final 4 but we knocked out in first round yet we crushed them week 11

 

It happens but it's decided on the field and if they struggle they will get moved down but take Chaminade as a example 

 

They beat Miramar and BTW (both in open class south region) so even small teams can compete and should a small team lose a few times they will be more motivated to rise up to their competition and make the state better as a whole

 

 

Just for kicks, I seeded the teams in R2 and had American Heritage Delray at #14.  Assuming no upsets other than AHD's, here is what their playoff schedule would look like based upon my seedings.  I don't care how much desire one has, desire can't stop injury.  A 3A team dressing out a relatively small number of players is likely to get a large percentage of their kids very banged up, if not seriously injured, playing teams that physical 5 weeks in a row(assuming a miracle and reaching the championship game).  

Miami Central

American Heritage

Miami Northwestern

Miami Carol City

Championship Game - Armwood

So, maybe having 8 teams in each region would be more realistic.  Just too much difference in talent levels between a 1 and a 14 to make it worthwhile playing that many teams.  We saw what Central and AHP did to Chaminade, and Chaminade would likely be seeded ahead of several teams in R2.  Even though I think Chaminade has better overall talent than Deerfield Beach or Miramar, I would give DB or Miramar a much better shot of surviving to the championship game simply because of their depth.      

 

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8 hours ago, blackmagic said:

Why did Madison go to 3A???

Well for 1 they should already be 3a and they might very well be 3a on next cycle 

 

2 while i started with enrollment as main placement i then moved some teams around to improve the competitive balance of the classifications 

 

I also moved Pahokee from 1a to 3a

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Just now, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Well for 1 they should already be 3a and they might very well be 3a on next cycle 

 

2 while i started with enrollment as main placement i then moved some teams around to improve the competitive balance of the classifications 

 

I also moved Pahokee from 1a to 3a

I agree but the argument for Madison and Pahokee will be Fort White(632), Newberry(670), Frostproof(643), Baldwin(658), Cocoa Beach(679), Union(593), Williston(589), Taylor County(653), are all around 600 and over.. While Madison 2017 numbers are 530 and Pahokee 496. How can you justify this to a coach?

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8 minutes ago, blackmagic said:

I agree but the argument for Madison and Pahokee will be Fort White(632), Newberry(670), Frostproof(643), Baldwin(658), Cocoa Beach(679), Union(593), Williston(589), Taylor County(653), are all around 600 and over.. While Madison 2017 numbers are 530 and Pahokee 496. How can you justify this to a coach?

Well it's a rough draft so i don't have exact numbers but this is basically Where i see the teams holding up once i take into account certain factors that lead to movement 

 

While enrollment is the base i may move a few teams up a class or 2 or down a class or 2

 

Also with Pahokee and Madison both have rosters of over 60

 

I'm not 100% positive but most if not all the teams you listed probably under 40 but I'm not certain 

 

Cocoa beach is a team that has struggled for a while to be competitive in 4a and they are likely in 4a to avoid the privates in 3a so they are there voluntary but would be far more balanced competitive in 1a vs 4a so a move there makes sense

 

Union and williston both are current 1a and i left them because they seem to be balanced where they are

 

Taylor County has not been very competitive in 3a and usually get bumped from playoffs in first 2 rounds and while their enrollment may be a little higher they make more sense being in 1a then 3a

 

Similar argument can be made with Baldwin, Fort White and Newberry 

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