Jump to content

Bad News for High School Football


OldSchoolLion

Recommended Posts

Who is playing football?  a state-by-state analysis

Demographic shifts, concussions, single-sport specialization and cost are among the issues causing youth football numbers to plummet around the country  

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/highschools/the-leading-edge-of-a-much-larger-iceberg-new-jersey-high-school-disbands-football-team/2017/08/22/e13b6516-836e-11e7-82a4-920da1aeb507_story.html?utm_term=.2699424cb8b8

Link to comment
Share on other sites


6 hours ago, OldSchoolLion said:

Who is playing football?  a state-by-state analysis

Demographic shifts, concussions, single-sport specialization and cost are among the issues causing youth football numbers to plummet around the country  

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/highschools/the-leading-edge-of-a-much-larger-iceberg-new-jersey-high-school-disbands-football-team/2017/08/22/e13b6516-836e-11e7-82a4-920da1aeb507_story.html?utm_term=.2699424cb8b8

We don't see such subtle news articles in FL that undermine the future of school football.  But I've read many similar articles by the so-called elite and enlightened about doing away with school football,  beginning at the pee-wee up through HS levels.  Like this Washington Post article from the DC area, veiled attacks on school football is mostly centered in the large urban areas, mostly the political centers on both coasts.

Don't be fooled thinking this is just one article, the opinion of one journalist.  It's far, far bigger than ya think.  And the root dislike for football goes way beyond "Demographic shifts, concussions, single-sport specialization and costs".  The grander strategy is to change all of American culture, including doing away with football.

If ya think I'm cryin wolf and that ain't so,   then forget the single author's article itself,  and just read the 700+ comments at the bottom of this Wash Post link, especially in the "most liked" and "most comments" sections.   Then you'll see how the vast majority of regular "normal" citizens living in the DC area believe and think at THEIR  grass-roots level - and hate football and all it stands for to the point of seeing the end of it.  They're overwhelmingly anti-football,  the typical mindset of the  "it takes a village to tell you how to raise yer own child, and how to think"  fringe extremists.   Journalists, and these citizens living in this area of the seat of our national power want their version of a new world order for all the rest of us,   and school team football just ain't in their playbook.  

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, mbhs69 said:

We don't see such subtle news articles in FL that undermine the future of school football.  But I've read many similar articles by the so-called elite and enlightened about doing away with school football,  beginning at the pee-wee up through HS levels.  Like this Washington Post article from the DC area, veiled attacks on school football is mostly centered in the large urban areas, mostly the political centers on both coasts.

Don't be fooled thinking this is just one article, the opinion of one journalist.  It's far, far bigger than ya think.  And the root dislike for football goes way beyond "Demographic shifts, concussions, single-sport specialization and costs".  The grander strategy is to change all of American culture, including doing away with football.

If ya think I'm cryin wolf and that ain't so,   then forget the single author's article itself,  and just read the 700+ comments at the bottom of this Wash Post link, especially in the "most liked" and "most comments" sections.   Then you'll see how the vast majority of regular "normal" citizens living in the DC area believe and think at THEIR  grass-roots level - and hate football and all it stands for to the point of seeing the end of it.  They're overwhelmingly anti-football,  the typical mindset of the  "it takes a village to tell you how to raise yer own child, and how to think"  fringe extremists.   Journalists, and these citizens living in this area of the seat of our national power want their version of a new world order for all the rest of us,   and school team football just ain't in their playbook.  

 

I think it is harder for mainstream Americans to relate to high school football today than in the past, on many fronts.  There was a time when an 18 year-old high school athlete of average height/weight (let's say 5'9"and 160 lbs) could realistically play any position on the field-not today.  In the 1980s, the average offensive lineman was 6-foot-4, 272 pounds.  There are high school lines as big or bigger than that today.   If you were a parent of a kid in the 1980's, would you have allowed him to play in the NFL?  Crazy, right?  Well, I can see parents not wanting their kids to play with the giants of today.  

Then there is the speed issue.  How many of us slow white boys are going to watch today's game and feel confident that we can be competitive, even in high school.   I can lift weights and get much stronger, but if I am naturally slow, I am not going to change that much.  ..and demographics.  At the beginning of this season, I saw pictures of the Top 25 players in Broward County and there was not one white kid in the bunch. 

...high school coaches making six figures, cross-country games, extravagant uniforms, high school athletes all over the TV, etc.  It is bigger than life and I can see the average Joe of today not relating to it like the game of 30 years ago  ...not to mention the resentment some folks might feel when they are losing their homes and seeing young athletes wearing $300 sneakers.   Such resentment used to be reserved for the pros, but I think it has trickled down.   HS football has gone from obscure, back page of the sports section stuff,  to in-your-face commercialization.  It has lost its innocence.     

 

  

 

 

   

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, OldSchoolLion said:

I think it is harder for mainstream Americans to relate to high school football today than in the past, on many fronts.  There was a time when an 18 year-old high school athlete of average height/weight (let's say 5'9"and 160 lbs) could realistically play any position on the field-not today.  In the 1980s, the average offensive lineman was 6-foot-4, 272 pounds.  There are high school lines as big or bigger than that today.   If you were a parent of a kid in the 1980's, would you have allowed him to play in the NFL?  Crazy, right?  Well, I can see parents not wanting their kids to play with the giants of today.  

Then there is the speed issue.  How many of us slow white boys are going to watch today's game and feel confident that we can be competitive, even in high school.   I can lift weights and get much stronger, but if I am naturally slow, I am not going to change that much.  ..and demographics.  At the beginning of this season, I saw pictures of the Top 25 players in Broward County and there was not one white kid in the bunch. 

...high school coaches making six figures, cross-country games, extravagant uniforms, high school athletes all over the TV, etc.  It is bigger than life and I can see the average Joe of today not relating to it like the game of 30 years ago  ...not to mention the resentment some folks might feel when they are losing their homes and seeing young athletes wearing $300 sneakers.   Such resentment used to be reserved for the pros, but I think it has trickled down.   HS football has gone from obscure, back page of the sports section stuff,  to in-your-face commercialization.  It has lost its innocence.     

 

  

 

 

   

 

I agree with the comments in your reply.  But all that you mentioned are aspects and developments of the game that have largely risen from within the sport itself,  from players, coaches, parents, fans, etc who enjoy the game now.  The consequences of much of what you say may erode support and growth of the game at the school levels in the future,  and some of those elements you mentioned may even be used as additional ammo by outsiders to argue against the game.  

 

My point about the WaPo article,  as evidenced by the the mostly anti-football comments to that article,  is about the broader cultural opposition to pee wee through HS football in society by those totally outside the game.  That's where the main social culture attack is coming from,  and most of us are so involved in our own football world with other fans like ourselves that we don't see it coming. 

The core belief and main cultural point against school football by "social justice warriors" against the game are that it is an uncivilized, neanderthal sport unworthy of a role in their new world order, with no redeeming values nor acceptable PC character traits to be learned,  that further the aggressive masculinity of young men in a world that opponents believe should be softer, kinder, gentler.   Read their many and varied comments to the article.  In addition, there's many journalists, tv and media commentators, news sources, social media bloggers, etc, who are with them,  so they have the means to spread their ideas and twisted agenda to the many sheep who'd buy into it.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, mbhs69 said:

I agree with the comments in your reply.  But all that you mentioned are aspects and developments of the game that have largely risen from within the sport itself,  from players, coaches, parents, fans, etc who enjoy the game now.  The consequences of much of what you say may erode support and growth of the game at the school levels in the future,  and some of those elements you mentioned may even be used as additional ammo by outsiders to argue against the game.  

 

My point about the WaPo article,  as evidenced by the the mostly anti-football comments to that article,  is about the broader cultural opposition to pee wee through HS football in society by those totally outside the game.  That's where the main social culture attack is coming from,  and most of us are so involved in our own football world with other fans like ourselves that we don't see it coming. 

The core belief and main cultural point against school football by "social justice warriors" against the game are that it is an uncivilized, neanderthal sport unworthy of a role in their new world order, with no redeeming values nor acceptable PC character traits to be learned,  that further the aggressive masculinity of young men in a world that opponents believe should be softer, kinder, gentler.   Read their many and varied comments to the article.  In addition, there's many journalists, tv and media commentators, news sources, social media bloggers, etc, who are with them,  so they have the means to spread their ideas and twisted agenda to the many sheep who'd buy into it.  

...see bold above-that's where my comments were coming from, sir.  In other words,I believe football is doing a fine job on its own doing itself in, without any coup d'etat's from the "outside" world.  The world is becoming a more socially conscious place.  Other than the occasional "feel good" story we see about a football player/coach, what do we have to offer the world about high school football.  ...kids on ESPN with limited intellect(not all) making "dramatic" announcements about what college they are going to attend. ...Lou Saban landing at a high school in a helicopter, like the President, to visit an individual recruit. 

I can understand why people looking from the outside world see this stuff and question how football is doing much to further society other than lining pockets.  We glamorize individuals, not teams. I would bet the farm that there are more people in Alabama who could name the 5-star recruit coming to Tuscaloosa than could name our Secretary of the Interior.  The latter is probably a tad more important, especially if you are outdoor sportsman. 

I used to be able to argue that high school football was "different" than the college and pro games, and DID build character.  My argument is getting weaker when I see how selfish the game has become.  Last night I watched two high schools games on ESPN.  I heard all kinds of stuff about individual stars on the field, but little about the about the schools themselves-sad.

I'm not sure if it is football, itself, that the the "social justice warriors" don't like.  Maybe it is more what the game has come to represent.  I think we need to be careful not to put people in boxes because they support or don't support football as it is today. ie "you don't like football so you must be a liberal or softie." 

I read a number of comments from people who spoke of the damage it can do to the body.  I live in constant, BAD pain and walk with a permanent limp as a result of earlier playing.  I can understand some of those"softies"out there saying I am a hypocrite for encouraging kids to play football.   And historically, hs football has been neanderthal in taking forever to adopt certain safety standards, ie heat stress. I think some of those concerns are very legit.

I hate to tell you this, but I know people in Asia from the martial arts world who think football is a stupid sport.  And believe me, these fellows have no issue with their masculinity and you would not call them a liberal, snowflake!  I respect their opinion.  One could say that the sparring we do is very violent, but there are elements in true martial arts that are often missing in football-restraint, discipline, the same coach for many years, etc 

Finally, as far as violence goes, I can see people having a concern, and not just the "social justice warriors."  NFL players are about four times more likely to be arrested for domestic abuse than you'd expect, based on their overall arrest rates.  If football is building character in these young men, what's missing?  These fellows are not very good advertisements for the benefits of football in building character.  

I am not defending anyone's stance. I love high school football but don't like what it is becoming.  I cannot build character in a young man in 4 months.  I need him for a few years, and that is becoming less and less common with kids moving around.  

Happy holidays to you and all!

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OldSchoolLion is right, football is cracking the under the weight of it's own hubris and greed.

While sports are designed to fun, build character, social events that allow students to showcase a different set of skills that are not always able to seen in a standard classroom. At some point, college athletic scholarships were designed for a poorer student who maybe had the mind, but not the $$$ to make it to college and not pay. Today, the scholarship becomes the goal to try and get to the NFL.

The cost of football (and all sports) is absurd. New uniforms, new helmets, new pads, new cameras, Hudl, security, ticket takers, ushers, travel to the games, new weight rooms, more coaches. The real amateur level is not designed to support this type of cost. Add in the time commitment that some coaches demand from players in a year round way. Football season is over and then starts weightlifting season, 7 on 7 games every weekend, track season, spring football, and back to the grind of summer workouts again. Ask yourself if that was really the same commitment 30 years ago, or was football something fun you participated in. Even the serious kids of yesteryear wouldn't do some of the things that are required to do today.

Ask yourself is it really worth the time and money that it takes to be successful? Could a student earn an academic scholarship with the same amount of time dedicated to the task of sports? Could a student work a minimum wage job and have as much money socked away by the end? With the continual push of "Scholarship or Bust" or "State Championship or Bust," students have the ability to read the tea leaves and as a 6"0 245 lb lineman the likelihood of earning a scholarship in football is not high. 

So as a community, we have set unrealistic expectations of the prize (Scholarship or State), we have set unrealistic expectations of what it takes to earn that prize (the amount of hours and $$$), and we are surprised when parents, students, and communities start turning off football?

Finally, institutionally, football has failed to sell itself. There is an old joke , "What doe you call your Social Studies teacher?" The answer is "Coach." How many educational opportunities were ruined because a school had to hire a defensive line coach and the only teaching position was US History. The coach put on some history channel documentaries and that was the end of the class. High School coaches (all sports, but most publicly, football) did this to themselves by not holding their own coaches in to the highest standards. The community has soured on it. Classroom education comes first. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, gatorman-uf said:

OldSchoolLion is right, football is cracking the under the weight of it's own hubris and greed.

While sports are designed to fun, build character, social events that allow students to showcase a different set of skills that are not always able to seen in a standard classroom. At some point, college athletic scholarships were designed for a poorer student who maybe had the mind, but not the $$$ to make it to college and not pay. Today, the scholarship becomes the goal to try and get to the NFL.

The cost of football (and all sports) is absurd. New uniforms, new helmets, new pads, new cameras, Hudl, security, ticket takers, ushers, travel to the games, new weight rooms, more coaches. The real amateur level is not designed to support this type of cost. Add in the time commitment that some coaches demand from players in a year round way. Football season is over and then starts weightlifting season, 7 on 7 games every weekend, track season, spring football, and back to the grind of summer workouts again. Ask yourself if that was really the same commitment 30 years ago, or was football something fun you participated in. Even the serious kids of yesteryear wouldn't do some of the things that are required to do today.

Ask yourself is it really worth the time and money that it takes to be successful? Could a student earn an academic scholarship with the same amount of time dedicated to the task of sports? Could a student work a minimum wage job and have as much money socked away by the end? With the continual push of "Scholarship or Bust" or "State Championship or Bust," students have the ability to read the tea leaves and as a 6"0 245 lb lineman the likelihood of earning a scholarship in football is not high. 

So as a community, we have set unrealistic expectations of the prize (Scholarship or State), we have set unrealistic expectations of what it takes to earn that prize (the amount of hours and $$$), and we are surprised when parents, students, and communities start turning off football?

Finally, institutionally, football has failed to sell itself. There is an old joke , "What doe you call your Social Studies teacher?" The answer is "Coach." How many educational opportunities were ruined because a school had to hire a defensive line coach and the only teaching position was US History. The coach put on some history channel documentaries and that was the end of the class. High School coaches (all sports, but most publicly, football) did this to themselves by not holding their own coaches in to the highest standards. The community has soured on it. Classroom education comes first. 

Yeah but I got straight As in history.  Coach was awesome for my GPA :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

OldSchoolLion is right, football is cracking the under the weight of it's own hubris and greed.

While sports are designed to fun, build character, social events that allow students to showcase a different set of skills that are not always able to seen in a standard classroom. At some point, college athletic scholarships were designed for a poorer student who maybe had the mind, but not the $$$ to make it to college and not pay. Today, the scholarship becomes the goal to try and get to the NFL.

The cost of football (and all sports) is absurd. New uniforms, new helmets, new pads, new cameras, Hudl, security, ticket takers, ushers, travel to the games, new weight rooms, more coaches. The real amateur level is not designed to support this type of cost. Add in the time commitment that some coaches demand from players in a year round way. Football season is over and then starts weightlifting season, 7 on 7 games every weekend, track season, spring football, and back to the grind of summer workouts again. Ask yourself if that was really the same commitment 30 years ago, or was football something fun you participated in. Even the serious kids of yesteryear wouldn't do some of the things that are required to do today.

Ask yourself is it really worth the time and money that it takes to be successful? Could a student earn an academic scholarship with the same amount of time dedicated to the task of sports? Could a student work a minimum wage job and have as much money socked away by the end? With the continual push of "Scholarship or Bust" or "State Championship or Bust," students have the ability to read the tea leaves and as a 6"0 245 lb lineman the likelihood of earning a scholarship in football is not high. 

So as a community, we have set unrealistic expectations of the prize (Scholarship or State), we have set unrealistic expectations of what it takes to earn that prize (the amount of hours and $$$), and we are surprised when parents, students, and communities start turning off football?

Finally, institutionally, football has failed to sell itself. There is an old joke , "What doe you call your Social Studies teacher?" The answer is "Coach." How many educational opportunities were ruined because a school had to hire a defensive line coach and the only teaching position was US History. The coach put on some history channel documentaries and that was the end of the class. High School coaches (all sports, but most publicly, football) did this to themselves by not holding their own coaches in to the highest standards. The community has soured on it. Classroom education comes first. 

..so well said, gatorman.  I am MUCH more concerned about the greedy SOB's seducing our kids with fame to make a buck than the "social justice warriors."   Here's an old news article about Southlake Carroll in Texas-million dollar stadium naming rights!

http://www.myplainview.com/news/article/Southlake-Carroll-football-creates-quite-a-cash-8666168.php

...one more thing that may be tarnishing the high school game in the eyes of the public.  Football has become unhealthy way beyond concussions.  Human growth hormone(hgh) use really started exploding about 30-35 years ago.  Isn't it interesting that a lot of the pro wrestlers and pro bodybuilders from that time are dropping like flies now that they are hitting their 50's? There was a confidential survey done a few years back involving several thousand high school athletes. 11 percent reported using synthetic HGH at least once.

Those pro wrestlers and bodybuilders were carrying around 275-350 pounds for years, and we are learning how hard that is on the body, especially the heart. If they are taking anabolic steroids, it is that much worse on the heart and arteries.  We are already starting to see the effects on retired NFL linemen.

 http://www.mcall.com/news/breaking/mc-nws-football-players-nate-hobgood-chittickheart-attacks-20171113-story.html

A college, senior lineman who has been carrying around 300+pounds for the past 6 years has already put a tremendous strain on a body that ideally should last him another 50 years or more.  People are smart enough about health nowadays to look at these monster hs linemen and know that this is unhealthy and harmful, and it reflects terribly on our game.  People have become very turned off by  bodybuilding because it became a freak show, and the average person couldn't relate to some 300-pound guy on the stage with 24" arms and a bubble gut.  I can see some of the same turn-off when the public sees a 350-pound hs lineman and thinks, what the heck are they doing to this kid?  

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I remember in 2006 seeing Edgewater High have four offensive linemen above 300 and a fifth in the 290s. I thought back to the mid 1980s when William "refrigerator" Perry was considered an aberration in the NFL and thinking what happened?

In the 1980s and early 1990s, it was not unusual to see High School Offensive Linemen between 200 and 250 or less and Defensive Linemen from 180 to 220. Those days seem gone forever; at least among the competitive teams. The increase in size has almost certainly contributed to the number of serious injuries on the playing field in addition to being terribly unhealthy for these athletes as they get older.

I gotta wonder where this will all end.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, DarterBlue2 said:

I remember in 2006 seeing Edgewater High have four offensive linemen above 300 and a fifth in the 290s. I thought back to the mid 1980s when William "refrigerator" Perry was considered an aberration in the NFL and thinking what happened?

In the 1980s and early 1990s, it was not unusual to see High School Offensive Linemen between 200 and 250 or less and Defensive Linemen from 180 to 220. Those days seem gone forever; at least among the competitive teams. The increase in size has almost certainly contributed to the number of serious injuries on the playing field in addition to being terribly unhealthy for these athletes as they get older.

I gotta wonder where this will all end.   

I think it has more to do with nutrition.  In 1985 Armwood had an O-line that averaged 250 pounds and that was huge compared to most high schools then.  My son played this year at 285 and is obviously not "skinny" but is very fit.  I look at the numbers these kids are hitting  in the weight room and it is baffling. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Sharkbait said:

I think it has more to do with nutrition.  In 1985 Armwood had an O-line that averaged 250 pounds and that was huge compared to most high schools then.  My son played this year at 285 and is obviously not "skinny" but is very fit.  I look at the numbers these kids are hitting  in the weight room and it is baffling. 

I don't question that many of these kids are not incredibly fit. However, I just don't think that the human frame was meant to walk around weighing close to or more than 300. You can do that for awhile; but in the long run (and I mean middle age), it typically comes back to bite you. 

Now if you are 6ft 6ins, or taller, I am not referring to you. I am referring to the average Lineman in High School who is maybe 6 ' 4" or less and ends up being in that weight category. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Sharkbait said:

I think it has more to do with nutrition.  In 1985 Armwood had an O-line that averaged 250 pounds and that was huge compared to most high schools then.  My son played this year at 285 and is obviously not "skinny" but is very fit.  I look at the numbers these kids are hitting  in the weight room and it is baffling. 

I was a competitive weightlifter and bodybuilder back in the 1980's. I managed a hardcore gym and knew guys who competed at the Mr Olympia and won world championships in powerlifting, so I have some perspective on heights,weights, bodyfat, etc

Most of us are not as fit as we think. I knew some guys who were pretty tall, with pretty big frames, and genetic freaks. Dieted down, they would be 235 and huge. At 260 pounds, you would probably say they looked to be in "good" shape. Keep in mind, these guys have been lifting weights for many years and were taking large amounts of anabolic steroids, and light years ahead of even the freakiest teenager in terms of muscle mass.    

My point is that any kid running 300 pounds is WAY overweight to be healthy and a LOT of that weight is not muscle. To find a kid with low bodyfat weighing 235 pounds, who has never taken performance-enhancing drugs, is pretty rare. These big hs linemen today are  75-100 pounds over a weight I would consider healthy, even for a tall teenager.   Doctors might even say more.  

You might say "no way," but I knew many big bodybuilders who routinely lost 50 pounds to get to their contest weight, and they were starting at a point that is WAY leaner than most of these hs linemen. 

 

 

 

 

    

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can't imagine the damage being done every time a 6'6" 300 lb player hits a 5' 8" 170 player. Yes, the gear has gotten better over the years but the size and weight has nearly doubled from when I was a Senior in HS in 1959. But, then again, this country is unrecognizable compared to when I grew up and had to be in the house before the street lights came on. <_<

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...


  • Posts

    • Just wait till spring is over and the top RB in the area will take his talent to 1 Indian Ave. 
    • This will be an interesting story to follow.  Venice has no proven RB headed in to spring which will be a first for a long time.  They have produced several Dairy Farmers player of the years in that position.  They also will have a massive offensive line with 2 three year starters who return as well as some stud young kids.  They will probably average around 6'4 295 on the line which is huge for Venice standards.  I just wonder if this will change before the start of the season.  I still fell like someone will show up.
    • Are you still talking to me??  Thought I was pretty clear for you not to waste your breath on this subject matter, but somehow you are missing the point.  Teacher unions have limited power in FL because the candidates they overwhelming support keep losing.  If they had won, the teacher union vote had a lot to do with it and would be wielding that power.  Osceola county which isn't a GOP stronghold during the past two national elections had the journalism students for the OHS monthly newsletter (Kowboy Jake) interview the faculty as to their political leanings.  A sample of about 30 teachers that were interviewed were voting as follows:  25 D vs 5 R.  Enough said.  
    • You missed the point of my union post. Teacher unions in strong union states have power. Florida unions have zero. They cant strike and the school board can implement a contract without the unions approval. Florida unions are not preventing any raise in Florida. The state has attacked a straw man here. 
  • Popular Contributors

×
×
  • Create New...