Team State Title Appearances by Decade - Who Dominated?

[OldSchoolLion]

3 minutes ago, Hwy17 said:

I disagree.  Just because a really good small school can whip a really bad large school doesn't mean that small school belongs in the same class.  Secondly, and I feel really strong about this, the transfer rules we have in place now compromises the purpose of why we have classes in the first place.  IMO, there should be a cap on the number of transfers a school can take,  or play up a class,  and also have a maximum number of transfers regardless of class.

Amen!  I shared this in a post a couple of weeks ago.  Pennsylvania is considering a “competition success formula” that could move schools up in classification if they have transfers and go far in the postseason.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/high-school-basketball/2018/05/24/piaa-transfer-rules-wpial-postseason-public-private-charter/stories/201805240171

 

[Hwy17]

5 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

Amen!  I shared this in a post a couple of weeks ago.  Pennsylvania is considering a “competition success formula” that could move schools up in classification if they have transfers and go far in the postseason.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/high-school-basketball/2018/05/24/piaa-transfer-rules-wpial-postseason-public-private-charter/stories/201805240171

 

That's a little too complex for me, but good to know that we aren't the only state with this issue.  

Here's how I would do it:  Classes 1A-4A, max # of transfers in one year limit to 3 transfers or move up in class accordingly.  5A-6A, max # of transfers in one year limit to 4 transfers or move up;  7A-8A, max # of transfers limit to 5 transfers.  No more than 5 transfers for any school.  

 

[BrowardHandicapper]

If I am not mistaken, in FL enrollment always has been and  likely always will be the first and strongest rule applied to classification.  

What this rule in PA is going to create is schools will "take the hit" to get big time athletes in but a "regular Joe" will never be allowed to transfer athletically.  Even if it is for a legit reason the school will not allow the kid on the team unless he is worth getting penalize for.  You are penalized the same way regardless of the talent level.  Schools in highly talented areas will be at an advantage to take in the transfers and more picking to take from.  Sounds crazy but is what I am describing a possible scenario with this new rule?

[OldSchoolLion]

14 minutes ago, BrowardHandicapper said:

If I am not mistaken, in FL enrollment always has been and  likely always will be the first and strongest rule applied to classification.  

What this rule in PA is going to create is schools will "take the hit" to get big time athletes in but a "regular Joe" will never be allowed to transfer athletically.  Even if it is for a legit reason the school will not allow the kid on the team unless he is worth getting penalize for.  You are penalized the same way regardless of the talent level.  Schools in highly talented areas will be at an advantage to take in the transfers and more picking to take from.  Sounds crazy but is what I am describing a possible scenario with this new rule?

It sounds as if a team would be allowed to have up to 5 transfers on the team within a 2-year period with no potential repercussions.  If they have more than 5 in 2-years and also have success on the field, it could result in them being forced to move up one classification.  But they only move up if they exceed 5 transfers transfers and win.  Makes me wonder if a team might intentionally lose a game at the end of the season for certain reasons, kinda like an NFL team wanting to make sure they get the first round draft pick.

 

[BrowardHandicapper]

5 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

It sounds as if a team would be allowed to have up to 5 transfers on the team within a 2-year period with no potential repercussions.  If they have more than 5 in 2-years and also have success on the field, it could result in them being forced to move up one classification.  But they only move up if they exceed 5 transfers transfers and win.  Makes me wonder if a team might intentionally lose a game at the end of the season for certain reasons, kinda like an NFL team wanting to make sure they get the first round draft pick.

 

I guess choose your transfers and winning seasons wisely...

[DarterBlue2]

57 minutes ago, BrowardHandicapper said:

If I am not mistaken, in FL enrollment always has been and  likely always will be the first and strongest rule applied to classification.  

What this rule in PA is going to create is schools will "take the hit" to get big time athletes in but a "regular Joe" will never be allowed to transfer athletically.  Even if it is for a legit reason the school will not allow the kid on the team unless he is worth getting penalize for.  You are penalized the same way regardless of the talent level.  Schools in highly talented areas will be at an advantage to take in the transfers and more picking to take from.  Sounds crazy but is what I am describing a possible scenario with this new rule?

It seems to me some of the solutions are not worth the complexity and probably would not work in large, metro areas such as Dade, Orlando, Tampa and Jacksonville anyway. With open enrollment greatly expanded by the state legislature, it seems difficult to limit transfers anyhow. It seems to me, this is just something we are going to have to live with till the rules at the state level are changed again. I know it sucks for small towns and rural areas, but this is the current reality of the world we live in. 

[Hwy17]

1 hour ago, DarterBlue2 said:

It seems to me some of the solutions are not worth the complexity and probably would not work in large, metro areas such as Dade, Orlando, Tampa and Jacksonville anyway. With open enrollment greatly expanded by the state legislature, it seems difficult to limit transfers anyhow. It seems to me, this is just something we are going to have to live with till the rules at the state level are changed again. I know it sucks for small towns and rural areas, but this is the current reality of the world we live in. 

Maybe the small town & rural public schools should do what the small private schools did and form their own league.  Its obvious to me that the FHSAA is not concerned with the issues we face. 

[OldSchoolLion]

 

19 hours ago, Hwy17 said:

That's a little too complex for me, but good to know that we aren't the only state with this issue.  

Here's how I would do it:  Classes 1A-4A, max # of transfers in one year limit to 3 transfers or move up in class accordingly.  5A-6A, max # of transfers in one year limit to 4 transfers or move up;  7A-8A, max # of transfers limit to 5 transfers.  No more than 5 transfers for any school.  

 

 

19 hours ago, Hwy17 said:

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/high-school-basketball/2018/05/24/piaa-transfer-rules-wpial-postseason-public-private-charter/stories/201805240171

 

Here is an example of what such a rule might do.  St Thomas Aquinas has been competing in 7A this decade.  It appears that this rule, as proposed, would potentially(assuming they exceed the transfer count) require them to move up to 8A, where they would have to compete against Deerfield Beach, Miramar, Columbus, Southridge, etc...a much tougher playoff path.  Same thing for American Heritage Plantation possibly being required to move up to 6A, where they would have to face Carol City, Northwestern, and Central.

One thing appears for sure.  Under this rule, a team that loads up on transfers and wins a lot would not be able to camp out in a class and pile up the trophies.  Don't know enough about the rule to properly assess it.  It is interesting.

 

 

[DarterBlue2]

18 hours ago, Hwy17 said:

Maybe the small town & rural public schools should do what the small private schools did and form their own league.  Its obvious to me that the FHSAA is not concerned with the issues we face. 

That's a possible solution. Not sure if it would work, as a majority would have to buy into this idea for it to make sense. 

[OldSchoolLion]

8 minutes ago, DarterBlue2 said:

That's a possible solution. Not sure if it would work, as a majority would have to buy into this idea for it to make sense. 

Going back 50 years ago, Coach Vince Zappone at tiny Chaminade had his team playing in the big leagues.  His teams could have easily won multiple state championships in the lower classes but played against the big boys.  They made it to the finals one year, but that's it.  Don Shula's son played on one of their team's that played in today's equivalent of 8A.  Imagine that, a coach sacrificing championships for the honor of playing against the toughest competition possible.  And nobody telling him to do so. 

 

[BrowardHandicapper]

1 hour ago, OldSchoolLion said:

 

 

Here is an example of what such a rule might do.  St Thomas Aquinas has been competing in 7A this decade.  It appears that this rule, as proposed, would potentially(assuming they exceed the transfer count) require them to move up to 8A, where they would have to compete against Deerfield Beach, Miramar, Columbus, Southridge, etc...a much tougher playoff path.  Same thing for American Heritage Plantation possibly being required to move up to 6A, where they would have to face Carol City, Northwestern, and Central.

One thing appears for sure.  Under this rule, a team that loads up on transfers and wins a lot would not be able to camp out in a class and pile up the trophies.  Don't know enough about the rule to properly assess it.  It is interesting.

 

 

So let me get this right.  It is STA's fault and they are "camping" in 7A?  

What are you essentially saying about the other top 7A teams compared to 8A and 6A?

Agree with the the concept that STA in 8A (or 6A) is a much tougher playoff path. Agree.

Now considering the facts that there are 89 8A Schools, 87 7A Schools, and 91 6A Schools and it would be a much tougher road for STA in 8A and 6A - How is the burden of the issue on STA (camping) or the current format?

Is it possible the other 86 7A schools are not pulling their weight consistently on a yearly basis?

If STA will be more challenged in 6A or 8A with a extremely similar classification criteria , the problem appears to be within the classification -  not STA or the format.  Is it STA's fault that for some odd reason 7A has been what it is.

How about the other 86 7A teams in 7A pull their weight and get on par with the top 6A and 8A programs?

 

I know you like to use STA as an example but what about Armwood in 6A North?  Is it their fault of the currently level of those regions?

 

[DisabledAccount]

41 minutes ago, BrowardHandicapper said:

So let me get this right.  It is STA's fault and they are "camping" in 7A?  

What are you essentially saying about the other top 7A teams compared to 8A and 6A?

Agree with the the concept that STA in 8A (or 6A) is a much tougher playoff path. Agree.

Now considering the facts that there are 89 8A Schools, 87 7A Schools, and 91 6A Schools and it would be a much tougher road for STA in 8A and 6A - How is the burden of the issue on STA (camping) or the current format?

Is it possible the other 86 7A schools are not pulling their weight consistently on a yearly basis?

If STA will be more challenged in 6A or 8A with a extremely similar classification criteria , the problem appears to be within the classification -  not STA or the format.  Is it STA's fault that for some odd reason 7A has been what it is.

How about the other 86 7A teams in 7A pull their weight and get on par with the top 6A and 8A programs?

 

I know you like to use STA as an example but what about Armwood in 6A North?  Is it their fault of the currently level of those regions?

 

Well explain to me how the hell half the teams in 7a are going to compile enough talent to compete on a regular basis 

 

How many 7a teams have the resources or talent pool that they have in broward county? 

 

Is it there fault?  No 

 

But don't pretend that it's that simple to just "pull their weight" and be able to knock off that giant with ease

 

Armwood is in a awkward spot,  they are probably a top 10 team talent wise most years but they never get a opportunity to face good competition until states (outside of Plant and Tampa Bay Tech) so they aren't ready for the best public in Miami Dade each year 

 

They would actually benefit if they could get into a open class and have more control over their schedule 

 

As for sta i believe you have actually said they wouldn't care if they were placed with tougher competition and they would actually welcome it

[OldSchoolLion]

 

6 minutes ago, BrowardHandicapper said:

So let me get this right.  It is STA's fault and they are "camping" in 7A?  

What are you essentially saying about the other top 7A teams compared to 8A and 6A?

Agree with the the concept that STA in 8A (or 6A) is a much tougher playoff path. Agree.

Now considering the facts that there are 89 8A Schools, 87 7A Schools, and 91 6A Schools and it would be a much tougher road for STA in 8A and 6A - How is the burden of the issue on STA (camping) or the current format?

Is it possible the other 86 7A schools are not pulling their weight consistently on a yearly basis?

If STA will be more challenged in 6A or 8A with a extremely similar classification criteria , the problem appears to be within the classification- Well beyond STA.  Is it STA's fault that for some odd reason 7A has been what it is.

How about the other 86 7A teams in 7A pull their weight and get on par with the top 6A and 8A programs?

 

I don't know who is/is not "camping out."  I can say with certainty that individual teams of past decades did not have the same level of success they did today, ie playing in 5 title games in one decade.  And I struggle to believe that such success is only a function of certain teams better preparing their home-grown talent. 

A team has no control over which class they are placed in or how others around them perform.  A team does have an option to petition to be moved.  And, for whatever reason, some very good teams have not petitioned to be moved.  A team can control how many transfers they allow to start in any one season. 

This proposed rule appears to attempt to level the playing field by requiring teams that are choosing to play an excessive number of transfer athletes and experiencing great success.   Recognizing the shortcomings of our current system, or any other one for that matter, it would be nice to think that any team that knows it could make things more competitive would take the high road and move up.  Does it always happen?  

The answer probably lies within the fact that Pennsylvania is proposing this rule.  

 

[BrowardHandicapper]

Just now, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Well explain to me how the hell half the teams in 7a are going to compile enough talent to compete on a regular basis 

 

How many 7a teams have the resources or talent pool that they have in broward county? 

 

Is it there fault?  No 

 

But don't pretend that it's that simple to just "pull their weight" and be able to knock off that giant with ease

 

Armwood is in a awkward spot,  they are probably a top 10 team talent wise most years but they never get a opportunity to face good competition until states (outside of Plant and Tampa Bay Tech) so they aren't ready for the best public in Miami Dade each year 

 

They would actually benefit if they could get into a open class and have more control over their schedule 

 

As for sta i believe you have actually said they wouldn't care if they were placed with tougher competition and they would actually welcome it

I don't know the answer.  Last I checked, there were other large metro areas other then Broward in the State.  Teams statewide have done it and Venice and Dwyer have figured it out in recent years.  What I do know is this is Florida High School football and you had better be elite for your classification if you have the right to play for a State Championship.

Are there any teams in 7A North that are as good as 8A Region 4 first round teams like Miramar and DFB?  If there is not then the problem is clearly not STA and the system.  It is clearly a problem with the classification.

It is almost as if you are just saying "Mercy".

[BrowardHandicapper]

25 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

 

I don't know who is/is not "camping out."  I can say with certainty that individual teams of past decades did not have the same level of success they did today, ie playing in 5 title games in one decade.  And I struggle to believe that such success is only a function of certain teams better preparing their home-grown talent. 

A team has no control over which class they are placed in or how others around them perform.  A team does have an option to petition to be moved.  And, for whatever reason, some very good teams have not petitioned to be moved.  A team can control how many transfers they allow to start in any one season. 

This proposed rule appears to attempt to level the playing field by requiring teams that are choosing to play an excessive number of transfer athletes and experiencing great success.   Recognizing the shortcomings of our current system, or any other one for that matter, it would be nice to think that any team that knows it could make things more competitive would take the high road and move up.  Does it always happen?  

The answer probably lies within the fact that Pennsylvania is proposing this rule.  

 

Pennsylvania is welcome to do things there way. BOL.  This is Florida football where we produce way more talent and better teams.  I simply don't like seeing elite teams cannibalizing one another in the first round while frauds from other regions are going to play for state championships.  The BEST teams should be playing for a championship.

 

 

 

[OldSchoolLion]

4 minutes ago, BrowardHandicapper said:

I don't know the answer.  Last I checked, there were other large metro areas other then Broward in the State.  Teams statewide have done it and Venice and Dwyer have figured it out in recent years.  What I do know is this is Florida High School football and you had better be elite for your classification if you have the right to play for a State Championship.

Are there any teams in 7A North that are as good as 8A Region 4 first round teams like Miramar and DFB?  If there is not then the problem is clearly not STA and the system.  It is clearly a problem with the classification.

It is almost as if you are just saying "Mercy".

You can say there is a "problem" with a certain class.  Or you can say the problem is that we have an 800-pound gorilla(s) loose in certain classes.  I have shown in other posts how this phenomenon of an IMG, Bolles, STA, etc., is somewhat rare relative to other states.    

In professional armwrestling, the elite will often fight guys much bigger than themselves.  Check out videos of John Brzenk.  It is not John's fault he was so gifted.  The problem was not John's weight class.  The problem was John in his weight class.  He knew what he had to do to "balance" his talent and make things interesting for himself and the fans.  So, he competed against much bigger guys, and occasionally lost as a result.  Even then, he rarely lost.

   

[DisabledAccount]

22 minutes ago, BrowardHandicapper said:

I don't know the answer.  Last I checked, there were other large metro areas other then Broward in the State.  Teams statewide have done it and Venice and Dwyer have figured it out in recent years.  What I do know is this is Florida High School football and you had better be elite for your classification if you have the right to play for a State Championship.

Are there any teams in 7A North that are as good as 8A Region 4 first round teams like Miramar and DFB?  If there is not then the problem is clearly not STA and the system.  It is clearly a problem with the classification.

It is almost as if you are just saying "Mercy".

Your right

 

Most in 7a can't compete with sta

 

So it seems the most logical idea is to let sta be challenged because 7a isn't providing that for them

 

Sta has a lot of pride so i think if offered they would agree to be moved to a tougher classification (or a open class if one is provided)

[BrowardHandicapper]

7 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

You can say there is a "problem" with a certain class.  Or you can say the problem is that we have an 800-pound gorilla(s) loose in certain classes.  I have shown in other posts how this phenomenon of an IMG, Bolles, STA, etc., is somewhat rare relative to other states.    

In professional armwrestling, the elite will often fight guys much bigger than themselves.  Check out videos of John Brzenk.  It is not John's fault he was so gifted.  The problem was not John's weight class.  The problem was John in his weight class.  He knew what he had to do to "balance" his talent and make things interesting for himself and the fans.  So, he competed against much bigger guys, and occasionally lost as a result.  Even then, he rarely lost.

   

An 800 pound gorilla that 1st round 8A teams beat nearly half the time in recent years. 

So less apply that arm wrestling logic to other sports like boxing and MMA.  Let's have Conor McGregor face Jon Jones. Brilliant.

[BrowardHandicapper]

Just now, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Your right

 

Most in 7a can't compete with sta

 

So it seems the most logical idea is to let sta be challenged because 7a isn't providing that for them

 

Sta has a lot of pride so i think if offered they would agree to be moved to a tougher classification (or a open class if one is provided)

That way the rest of 7A won't have to work as hard, right .  Then it fall even farther from 6A and 8A....

[BrowardHandicapper]

12 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

You can say there is a "problem" with a certain class.  Or you can say the problem is that we have an 800-pound gorilla(s) loose in certain classes.  I have shown in other posts how this phenomenon of an IMG, Bolles, STA, etc., is somewhat rare relative to other states.    

In professional armwrestling, the elite will often fight guys much bigger than themselves.  Check out videos of John Brzenk.  It is not John's fault he was so gifted.  The problem was not John's weight class.  The problem was John in his weight class.  He knew what he had to do to "balance" his talent and make things interesting for himself and the fans.  So, he competed against much bigger guys, and occasionally lost as a result.  Even then, he rarely lost.

   

How do you feel about BTW still being in 4A with all of dominance they have produced over the last few years?  

[OldSchoolLion]

5 minutes ago, BrowardHandicapper said:

How do you feel about BTW still being in 4A with all of dominance they have produced over the last few years?  

No need to talk about individual teams.  If any team is clearly outclassing the rest of the competition in their class year after year, it would be nice to see them put themselves in a position where they could be in a more competitive environment.  It's as simple as that.   

[BrowardHandicapper]

13 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Your right

 

Most in 7a can't compete with sta

 

So it seems the most logical idea is to let sta be challenged because 7a isn't providing that for them

 

Sta has a lot of pride so i think if offered they would agree to be moved to a tougher classification (or a open class if one is provided)

How come you never had a problem with over teams dominating in other classifications?

How come there are plenty of other teams in VARIOUS classification that can compete with that 800 lb gorilla in STA?

Wait a minute....Last  I checked STA did not make it to States in 2017 and 2013. They actually fell to 7A teams.

[BrowardHandicapper]

11 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

No need to talk about individual teams.  If any team is clearly outclassing the rest of the competition in their class year after year, it would be nice to see them put themselves in a position where they could be in a more competitive environment.  It's as simple as that.   

Why not?

So BTW's run and dominance they had a few years back surely is not as dominant as STA in recent years.  Okay...We'll just make pretend that it never happened and that 4A team did beat STA in 2016 when STA beat the piss out of 7A North Plant while BTW did not ever reach 4A  states that year.  But the problem is surely still with STA not moving up - Not 7A North.  Surely no agenda here.

 

 

[DisabledAccount]

14 minutes ago, BrowardHandicapper said:

How come you never had a problem with over teams dominating in other classifications?

How come there are plenty of other teams in VARIOUS classification that can compete with that 800 lb gorilla in STA?

Wait a minute....Last  I checked STA did not make it to States in 2017 and 2013. They actually fell to 7A teams.

I never said i didn't have a problem with it

 

But sta is the team that always comes up in the discussion and they been dominating longer than these other teams dominating now

[DisabledAccount]

11 minutes ago, BrowardHandicapper said:

Why not?

So BTW's run and dominance they had a few years back surely is not as dominant as STA in recent years.  Okay...We'll just make pretend that it never happened and that 4A team did beat STA in 2016 when STA beat the piss out of 7A North Plant while BTW did not ever reach 4A  states that year.  But the problem is surely still with STA not moving up - Not 7A North.  Surely no agenda here.

 

 

Again yes 7a north won't be able to compete regularly with sta

 

So why keep sta in 7a to keep piling up championships against limited competition?