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3 Articles about FHSAA Proposed Playoff System


gatorman-uf

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An In-depth look at how the system would be done

http://www.heraldtribune.com/sports/20180506/prep-sports-new-ranking-plan-pitched-to-fhsaa

Coaches give their input (mostly positive)
http://www.heraldtribune.com/sports/20180514/prep-sports-new-playoff-plan-popular-with-coaches-ads

Girls Volleyball Coach (Against Proposal)
http://www.heraldtribune.com/sports/20180625/out-of-door-volleyball-coach-debates-new-proposal?template=ampart

She brings up some good points, but I think asking coaches, fans, ADs to rank the best teams is insane. There is no way a coach sees that many teams in a given year, so other than basing it off reputations and wins, what are we really talking about. I still think Division/Classes 3-7 should have districts.
 

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1 minute ago, gatorman-uf said:

An In-depth look at how the system would be done

http://www.heraldtribune.com/sports/20180506/prep-sports-new-ranking-plan-pitched-to-fhsaa

Coaches give their input (mostly positive)
http://www.heraldtribune.com/sports/20180514/prep-sports-new-playoff-plan-popular-with-coaches-ads

Girls Volleyball Coach (Against Proposal)
http://www.heraldtribune.com/sports/20180625/out-of-door-volleyball-coach-debates-new-proposal?template=ampart

She brings up some good points, but I think asking coaches, fans, ADs to rank the best teams is insane. There is no way a coach sees that many teams in a given year, so other than basing it off reputations and wins, what are we really talking about. I still think Division/Classes 3-7 should have districts.
 

fhsaa doesn't want to take the time to draw up districts and then have schools bitch and petition to move out of a district because they are scared to play someone.

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1 minute ago, gatorman-uf said:

I get that, but if you are removing the scariest teams, what is left to be scared of? I mean if you are removing 128 teams that always are in the playoffs, what else is left?

 

It would be what those average middle road teams who never are contention want

 

A easy road to win state then act like badasses 

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I agree but teams would still complain which is why the FHSAA doesn't want districts.  I think it's stupid.  Most teams are not good enough to win a state title and winning a district title is something that they can be proud of and look back on.  I'm just pointing out the reason behind it

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You know what,  ik it may hurt our chances of winning state but screw it

 

It probably wouldn't hurt it anymore than it already does

 

 

The state can put us wherever the hell they want, i don't give a crap

 

We aren't scared like these other joke programs out there that are just looking for a easy way to win state, we aren't gonna whine because we aren't handed a championship like some teams constantly want

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I personally think the whole thing is dumb.  I know you like most of it Gatorman but if they wouldn't have expanded classes then all these blowouts and competitive disadvantages wouldn't be as noticeable.  Easy solution was to cut classes.  I feel like this will get past in football soon and teams like Plant, Apopka, etc will never win a state title again

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1 minute ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

You know what,  ik it may hurt our chances of winning state but screw it

 

It probably wouldn't hurt it anymore than it already does

 

 

The state can put us wherever the hell they want, i don't give a crap

 

We aren't scared like these other joke programs out there that are just looking for a easy way to win state, we aren't gonna whine because we aren't handed a championship like some teams constantly want

well if you don't win division 1 you didn't really win a state title.  you won best of the rest

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Just now, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Yeah but I'm sure you know that there are a lot of programs around the state who would make the "best of the rest" sound like they beat the best of the best 

oh they will for sure.  If it wasn't division 1 or maybe division 2 I'm not putting that crap up on a banner and I'm especially not buying rings as the AD,.  I might make a T-shirt

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28 minutes ago, badbird said:

I feel like this will get past in football soon and teams like Plant, Apopka, etc will never win a state title again

Apopka won its first state title before the latest stupid expansions. But I know you know that. I guess what I am saying is that every so often (maybe once every ten to fifteen years), Apopka produces a team that has a chance. Of course, it still needs a bit of luck. You want the other major threats to be down in those years as APK can never match certain teams when they are at their best!

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1 minute ago, badbird said:

I personally think the whole thing is dumb.  I know you like most of it Gatorman but if they wouldn't have expanded classes then all these blowouts and competitive disadvantages wouldn't be as noticeable.  Easy solution was to cut classes.  I feel like this will get past in football soon and teams like Plant, Apopka, etc will never win a state title again

I like most of it, because I have been on the receiving end of both sides of district games where the other team was clearly good enough to consistently be in the state championship and we have beaten a team so bad that I felt embarrassed to be there. I think when games are competitive it makes things more interesting in all sports. I think it makes players better, coaches better, and leads to better crowds when both squads think they have a chance.  Most people know I am against the Playoff Power Rankings because I don't think it settles who is the best on the field, instead it leads to having to hope the people you schedule are good. 

Is this exactly how I would do it? No, it isn't, my process would take years to make happen and is a continuous process and would a lot more like the English Soccer Pyramid of promotion and relegation. Again, I think the district tournaments are worth it for the exact reason you suggest and again the FHSAA needs to show exactly what the re-classifications would look like. Right now, we can guess, but it would be better if they actually put a draft out there. I doubt there would be a lot of changes in the schedules overall, the great volleyball, soccer, and basketball teams are still going to go all the big name tournaments they can. They are still going to play the one day shootouts in basketball.  The non-elite, but very good teams will play whoever they can. 

Again, when we talk of not wanting to be in a district with a team, it is usually we are trying to avoid a Ribault or Dillard Girls Basketball team, a St. Johns Country Day Girls Soccer Team, a Martin County or Venice or Plant or Tampa Prep volleyball, Orlando Chirstian Prep, Oak Ridge, or Ely Boys Basketball team. I seriously doubt that teams are angry about being in a district with some mediocre team even if you are a poor team. Districts make lives easier for coaches, not harder and should be encouraged. 

Yes, the FHSAA should not have expanded to 9 classifications in some other sports and 8 classifications in football. I have posted before my suggestion for a new playoff/classification in football that would fix those problems.

I understand why districts are hard, but if they are going to put 115-130 teams in a classification than that is nearly 7 or 8 teams in each district (assuming 16 districts), easy enough to make districts of the correct size. Heck, if we are doing away with districts for lower classes than just let all 130 teams make regional playoffs with the rankings.  

 

I think one additional weekend of a Tournament of Champions would be a nice finish (at least for some of our individual sports like Cross Country, Swimming, Wrestling, Track, Tennis, and Golf). 

 

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10 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

I like most of it, because I have been on the receiving end of both sides of district games where the other team was clearly good enough to consistently be in the state championship and we have beaten a team so bad that I felt embarrassed to be there. I think when games are competitive it makes things more interesting in all sports. I think it makes players better, coaches better, and leads to better crowds when both squads think they have a chance.  Most people know I am against the Playoff Power Rankings because I don't think it settles who is the best on the field, instead it leads to having to hope the people you schedule are good. 

Is this exactly how I would do it? No, it isn't, my process would take years to make happen and is a continuous process and would a lot more like the English Soccer Pyramid of promotion and relegation. Again, I think the district tournaments are worth it for the exact reason you suggest and again the FHSAA needs to show exactly what the re-classifications would look like. Right now, we can guess, but it would be better if they actually put a draft out there. I doubt there would be a lot of changes in the schedules overall, the great volleyball, soccer, and basketball teams are still going to go all the big name tournaments they can. They are still going to play the one day shootouts in basketball.  The non-elite, but very good teams will play whoever they can. 

Again, when we talk of not wanting to be in a district with a team, it is usually we are trying to avoid a Ribault or Dillard Girls Basketball team, a St. Johns Country Day Girls Soccer Team, a Martin County or Venice or Plant or Tampa Prep volleyball, Orlando Chirstian Prep, Oak Ridge, or Ely Boys Basketball team. I seriously doubt that teams are angry about being in a district with some mediocre team even if you are a poor team. Districts make lives easier for coaches, not harder and should be encouraged. 

Yes, the FHSAA should not have expanded to 9 classifications in some other sports and 8 classifications in football. I have posted before my suggestion for a new playoff/classification in football that would fix those problems.

I understand why districts are hard, but if they are going to put 115-130 teams in a classification than that is nearly 7 or 8 teams in each district (assuming 16 districts), easy enough to make districts of the correct size. Heck, if we are doing away with districts for lower classes than just let all 130 teams make regional playoffs with the rankings.  

 

I think one additional weekend of a Tournament of Champions would be a nice finish (at least for some of our individual sports like Cross Country, Swimming, Wrestling, Track, Tennis, and Golf). 

 

How about this

 

Keep the current normal classes but set up a d1/d2 and at the end of season take however many you want in each division of playoffs based on rankings at end of season and then play regular for the rest of the classifications 

 

It Would put the powerhouses in top 2 classes which would limit blowouts then play the remaining classes how they are 

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7 hours ago, gatorman-uf said:

I get that, but if you are removing the scariest teams, what is left to be scared of? I mean if you are removing 128 teams that always are in the playoffs, what else is left?

 

This is what it could look like below.  In terms of "what's left?"...well, using south Florida as an example, 22 of 88 public schools would fall into Div 1 or Div 2, so you would have 75% of south Florida public schools in the "other" category.  From each county in the "other" category...21/29 Broward schools, 17/22 Palm Beach schools, 28/37 Miami-Dade schools

Region 1

DIV 1 Baker County, Crestview, West Florida, Wakulla, Escambia, Godby, Navarre, Clay

DIV 2 FSU, Pine Forest, Tate, Lincoln, Blountstown, Rickards, Niceville, Gulf Breeze

Region 2 

DIV 1 St Augustine, Raines, Bartram Trail, Vanguard, Trinity Christian, Mainland, Fleming Island, Lee

DIV 2 Bolles, Ribault, University Christian, Bishop Kenny, Menendez, Columbia, Ponte Vedra, Bradford

Region 3  

DIV 1 Dr Phillips, Wekiva, Winter Park, Osceola, Apopka, Jones, Boone, West Orange

DIV 2 Edgewater, Seminole, Lake Mary, Bishop Moore, Spruce Creek, Gainesville, Dixie County, Dunnellon

Region 4

DIV 1 Armwood, Plant, Riverview, Lakeland, Tampa Bay Tech, CCC, Hillsbourough, Palmetto

DIV 2 Olympia, Winter Haven, Ridge, Lakewood, Largo, East Lake, Mitchell, Wiregrass Ranch

Region 5

DIV 1 Venice, Cocoa, Riverview, Viera, Braden River, Rockledge, Vero Beach, Immokalee

DIV 2 Manatee, Southeast, Palmetto, St Stephen's, Chamberlain, Jesuit, Lake Gibson, Kathleen

Region 6

DIV 1 St Thomas Aquinas, Atlantic, Dunbar, Naples, North Fort Myers, Deerfield Beach, University, Park Vista

DIV 2 Heritage, Matanzas, Avon Park, Sebring, Merritt Island, Palm Bay, Melbourne Central Catholic, Palm Coast

Region 7

DIV 1 AH Plantation, Chaminade, Gibbons, Miramar, Western, Plantation, Carol City, Booker T Washington

DIV 2 Port Charlotte, Fort Myers, King's Academy, Dwyer, Benjamin, Palm Beach Central, Pahokee, Glades Central

Region 8

DIV 1 Northwestern, Central, Miami, Columbus, Champagnat, Palmetto, South Dade, Southridge 

DIV 2 W Broward, Dillard, Stranahan, Jackson, Norland, Monsignor Pace, Doral Academy, Coconut Creek

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7 hours ago, badbird said:

I personally think the whole thing is dumb.  I know you like most of it Gatorman but if they wouldn't have expanded classes then all these blowouts and competitive disadvantages wouldn't be as noticeable.  Easy solution was to cut classes.  I feel like this will get past in football soon and teams like Plant, Apopka, etc will never win a state title again

I question if such a scheme would motivate the formation of "superteams" to make a run for a title.  Not that such motivation does not exist today, but I could see this taking things to a new level.  Using Broward County as an example...kids at Miramar and Deerfield Beach presently have a reasonable shot at making it to a Class 8A final.   If they were together in Div 1 with all of the Broward private school powers and 6A Miami-Dade schools, those odds would decrease big time.  So, if a kid liked the idea of playing for a title, he might be even more compelled to transfer in the future.  

I could see kids collaborating and deciding to make an all-star team at a certain school a certain year to make a run...like what happens in basketball.  The ease with which kids can transfer makes it possible.  In addition, you could have a team in DIV 1 that falls out of favor and loses most of their talent and is now getting blown away.  Smaller schools would be especially prone to this, ie Champagnat, Chaminade, Clearwater Central Catholic, etc.

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4 hours ago, OldSchoolLion said:

This is what it could look like below.  In terms of "what's left?"...well, using south Florida as an example, 22 of 88 public schools would fall into Div 1 or Div 2, so you would have 75% of south Florida public schools in the "other" category.  From each county in the "other" category...21/29 Broward schools, 17/22 Palm Beach schools, 28/37 Miami-Dade schools

Region 1

DIV 1 Baker County, Crestview, West Florida, Wakulla, Escambia, Godby, Navarre, Clay

DIV 2 FSU, Pine Forest, Tate, Lincoln, Blountstown, Rickards, Niceville, Gulf Breeze

Region 2 

DIV 1 St Augustine, Raines, Bartram Trail, Vanguard, Trinity Christian, Mainland, Fleming Island, Lee

DIV 2 Bolles, Ribault, University Christian, Bishop Kenny, Menendez, Ponte Vedra, Bradford, Dixie County

Region 3  

DIV 1 Dr Phillips, Wekiva, Winter Park, Osceola, Apopka, Jones, Boone, West Orange

DIV 2 Edgewater, Seminole, Lake Mary, Bishop Moore, Spruce Creek, Gainesville, Columbia , Dunnellon

Region 4

DIV 1 Armwood, Plant, Riverview, Lakeland, Tampa Bay Tech, CCC, Hillsbourough, Palmetto

DIV 2 Olympia, Winter Haven, Ridge, Lakewood, Largo, East Lake, Mitchell, Wiregrass Ranch

Region 5

DIV 1 Venice, Cocoa, Riverview, Viera, Braden River, Rockledge, Vero Beach, Immokalee

DIV 2 Manatee, Southeast, Palmetto, St Stephen's, Chamberlain, Jesuit, Lake Gibson, Kathleen

Region 6

DIV 1 St Thomas Aquinas, Atlantic, Dunbar, Naples, North Fort Myers, Deerfield Beach, University, Park Vista

DIV 2 Heritage, Matanzas, Avon Park, Sebring, Merritt Island, Palm Bay, Melbourne Central Catholic, Palm Coast

Region 7

DIV 1 AH Plantation, Chaminade, Gibbons, Miramar, Western, Plantation, Carol City, Booker T Washington

DIV 2 Port Charlotte, Fort Myers, King's Academy, Dwyer, Benjamin, Palm Beach Central, Pahokee, Glades Central

Region 8

DIV 1 Northwestern, Central, Miami, Columbus, Champagnat, Palmetto, South Dade, Southridge 

DIV 2 W Broward, Dillard, Stranahan, Jackson, Norland, Monsignor Pace, Doral Academy, Coconut Creek

There much better 

 

But 1 question 

 

If you gonna put Dixie County, blountstown, and Pahokee in here

 

Where is Madison?

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http://www.lazindex.com/fhsaa.php

 

Can someone explain to me how some of these rankings came to be

 

Armwood over Miami Northwestern 

 

Venice over IMG 

 

 

Both lost head to head against teams they are ranked ahead

 

Plus Bartram Trail over teams like Cardinal Gibbons and Miami Central who both would have embarrassed them 

 

 

Idk how he got these rankings but I have serious doubts on it

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2 minutes ago, s1nglewing said:

If Laz would be interested in being contracted to use his algorithm for each of the sports... just a thought.

I suppose i would at least trust someone from the state instead of a out of state company

 

But i think he would need to explain how his system works

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Maxpreps is a ridiculous, easy, cheap, and very poor choice. 

Selecting teams based on the previous season's performance is likewise loaded with potential for very bad match-ups. Teams often have flash-in-the-pan seasons that are followed up by mediocrity at best. For example, Choctawhatchee in 2014 made final four in football and posted an 11-3 record, the previous season they went 9-4 and made the elite eight. Had they been put in a superclass based on those two seasons, they would likely have gone winless, or close to winless, the next two seasons if made to play teams like Armwood, Apopka, STA, etc.  

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26 minutes ago, s1nglewing said:

Maxpreps is a ridiculous, easy, cheap, and very poor choice. 

Selecting teams based on the previous season's performance is likewise loaded with potential for very bad match-ups. Teams often have flash-in-the-pan seasons that are followed up by mediocrity at best. For example, Choctawhatchee in 2014 made final four in football and posted an 11-3 record, the previous season they went 9-4 and made the elite eight. Had they been put in a superclass based on those two seasons, they would likely have gone winless, or close to winless, the next two seasons if made to play teams like Armwood, Apopka, STA, etc.  

Oh i agree 

 

That's why i think they should just keep classifications the way they are and seperate teams into d1/d2 brackets after regular season is over so that they use it on year by year basis 

 

That would also limit the blowouts 

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