3 Articles about FHSAA Proposed Playoff System

[Proseteye]

How about we go back to teams playing with the students that already attend the school. Remember the old days when students played sports for the school first and themselves 2nd.  Any player should be able to transfer to another school but should not be allowed to play sports that school year. This would nearly completely stop all transfers for sports only but would not stop transfers for academic reasons. This transfer at will situation is a joke. These are not teams that represent a school. They are not even really teams in the true sense of the meaning. They are just a bunch of mercenaries primarily out for themselves and really have no true attachment to the school and possibly to the fans that they play in front of. I don't think any rearranging of classes, regions, or districts will solve this problem which seems to be getting totally out of control. The FHSAA better do something tangible pretty soon or HS football in Florida will morph into a few super teams and then the rest of the 748 high schools.

[OldSchoolLion]

4 hours ago, Proseteye said:

How about we go back to teams playing with the students that already attend the school. Remember the old days when students played sports for the school first and themselves 2nd.  Any player should be able to transfer to another school but should not be allowed to play sports that school year. This would nearly completely stop all transfers for sports only but would not stop transfers for academic reasons. This transfer at will situation is a joke. These are not teams that represent a school. They are not even really teams in the true sense of the meaning. They are just a bunch of mercenaries primarily out for themselves and really have no true attachment to the school and possibly to the fans that they play in front of. I don't think any rearranging of classes, regions, or districts will solve this problem which seems to be getting totally out of control. The FHSAA better do something tangible pretty soon or HS football in Florida will morph into a few super teams and then the rest of the 748 high schools.

I would really like to see some hard data to see how much of a problem athletic transferring is.  Specifically, how many juniors are transferring and becoming instant starters on the team where they transfer?  Relative to the total population of kids playing hs football, it may be a very small number(or maybe not..don't know).   

If it is a small number, trying to put in place administrative processes to manage it may not be the best strategy and/or worth the bother.  One interesting angle to getting rid of districts is that it gives AD's additional leverage to say who they play.  If there is a team that is putting 10 transfers on the field every year, refuse to play them.  I think they would get the message if coaches banded together and did the same.  And it would put pressure on them to think twice about how they are managing their program.  

 

[gatorman-uf]

11 hours ago, s1nglewing said:

Maxpreps is a ridiculous, easy, cheap, and very poor choice. 

Selecting teams based on the previous season's performance is likewise loaded with potential for very bad match-ups. Teams often have flash-in-the-pan seasons that are followed up by mediocrity at best. For example, Choctawhatchee in 2014 made final four in football and posted an 11-3 record, the previous season they went 9-4 and made the elite eight. Had they been put in a superclass based on those two seasons, they would likely have gone winless, or close to winless, the next two seasons if made to play teams like Armwood, Apopka, STA, etc.  

Let us assume that Choctaw was in the Division 1, there are no districts, so they can make whatever schedule they want. They would make the playoffs (since every team would) and lose in the first round. Simple.

Again, you are trying to use the rankings as end all be all. That is not the purpose of the rankings by Laz. Instead, go to #129 and below and ask yourself how many of them would you put in the top 64, or the top 128. If the LazIndex, Pinkos, or MaxPreps does that then it is doing it;s job. The rankings only tell use who gets in, not who wins. Ultimately, it is up to the players on the field and the coaches on the sidelines.

[Proseteye]

6 hours ago, OldSchoolLion said:

I would really like to see some hard data to see how much of a problem athletic transferring is.  Specifically, how many juniors are transferring and becoming instant starters on the team where they transfer?  Relative to the total population of kids playing hs football, it may be a very small number(or maybe not..don't know).   

If it is a small number, trying to put in place administrative processes to manage it may not be the best strategy and/or worth the bother.  One interesting angle to getting rid of districts is that it gives AD's additional leverage to say who they play.  If there is a team that is putting 10 transfers on the field every year, refuse to play them.  I think they would get the message if coaches banded together and did the same.  And it would put pressure on them to think twice about how they are managing their program.  

 

Oldschool,

It may be a small number relative to the total of 748 high schools. However, when you see one team with 12 transfers in the summer, as an example, that certainly isn't a small number. I consistently see, on this forum, where certain schools, usually the same schools, are getting transfers almost every week. Sometimes 2 or 3 at one time. Take schools 1A through 5A. A couple of D-1 transfers to the school can be the difference between not even making the playoffs and getting to the final game. 6A through 8A even 2 or 3 could shift the momentum considerably. A D-1 QB or WR can change the entire makeup of a team no matter what classification. The real problem is not only that those transfers go to another team they debilitate the team that they transfer from. A case in point is Eastside HS in Gainesville. They used to be an excellent team a few years ago. Some of their best players transfer most every year to Gainesville or Buchholz which is evident by Eastside's losing seasons over the last 8 or 9 years. This is what is happening to so many schools and I just don't think it is the direction that Florida HS football should be striving for.

[DisabledAccount]

6 minutes ago, Proseteye said:

Oldschool,

It may be a small number relative to the total of 748 high schools. However, when you see one team with 12 transfers in the summer, as an example, that certainly isn't a small number. I consistently see, on this forum, where certain schools, usually the same schools, are getting transfers almost every week. Sometimes 2 or 3 at one time. Take schools 1A through 5A. A couple of D-1 transfers to the school can be the difference between not even making the playoffs and getting to the final game. 6A through 8A even 2 or 3 could shift the momentum considerably. A D-1 QB or WR can change the entire makeup of a team no matter what classification. The real problem is not only that those transfers go to another team they debilitate the team that they transfer from. A case in point is Eastside HS in Gainesville. They used to be an excellent team a few years ago. Some of their best players transfer most every year to Gainesville or Buchholz which is evident by Eastside's losing seasons over the last 8 or 9 years. This is what is happening to so many schools and I just don't think it is the direction that Florida HS football should be striving for.

You bring up Eastside but speaking of them it looks like they will be much better than in past years 

 

I think they actually will be better than Gainesville is this year 

 

 

 

But let's be realistic 

 

 

Private schools and publics in metro areas have gotten the transfer game to their advantage for years but now everyone acts like these new rules have somehow changed things

 

All it means is say a school like Columbia doesn't have to jump through hoops to get a single transfer while someone like Lee can get 15-20 without anyone batting a eye

[gatorman-uf]

11 minutes ago, Proseteye said:

Oldschool,

It may be a small number relative to the total of 748 high schools. However, when you see one team with 12 transfers in the summer, as an example, that certainly isn't a small number. I consistently see, on this forum, where certain schools, usually the same schools, are getting transfers almost every week. Sometimes 2 or 3 at one time. Take schools 1A through 5A. A couple of D-1 transfers to the school can be the difference between not even making the playoffs and getting to the final game. 6A through 8A even 2 or 3 could shift the momentum considerably. A D-1 QB or WR can change the entire makeup of a team no matter what classification. The real problem is not only that those transfers go to another team they debilitate the team that they transfer from. A case in point is Eastside HS in Gainesville. They used to be an excellent team a few years ago. Some of their best players transfer most every year to Gainesville or Buchholz which is evident by Eastside's losing seasons over the last 8 or 9 years. This is what is happening to so many schools and I just don't think it is the direction that Florida HS football should be striving for.

ProSet,

You do realize that this is exactly what every Ocala school said for most of the '00s as you guys completely ransanked their teams. It is the reason why nobody wanted to play OTC anymore from Chiefland, Newberry, Union, and PK Yonge, because they knew that you created a Marion County All-Star team. Additionally, at the 2B level, 1 Stud makes a below average to being above average, 3-4 of them makes state championship bound.

Columbia,

CHS has gotten plenty of transfers over the years who became starters. They have lost some as well. Yes, it is harder to transfer to CHS than it is to Lee BECAUSE NOBODY LIVES IN COLUMBIA COUNTY. Where are you going to get players from? Gainesville? That is a 45 minute trip from school to school plus gas $$$. Fort White, where players go when they can't make it at CHS? Suwannee? Hamilton? Baker? Union? I mean those schools might get one stud every few years (CeCe Jefferson from Baker comes to mind), but the reality is that you are a 1900 person school surrounded by small tiny schools which aren't producing big studs. Of course, you aren't getting huge number of transfers. Plus, those kids grow up just like the kids in Lake City going to the same football games that their brothers, mothers, fathers, and uncles played at. Those ties aren't as strong in the big metro areas.

 

 

[OldSchoolLion]

1 hour ago, Proseteye said:

Oldschool,

It may be a small number relative to the total of 748 high schools. However, when you see one team with 12 transfers in the summer, as an example, that certainly isn't a small number. I consistently see, on this forum, where certain schools, usually the same schools, are getting transfers almost every week. Sometimes 2 or 3 at one time. Take schools 1A through 5A. A couple of D-1 transfers to the school can be the difference between not even making the playoffs and getting to the final game. 6A through 8A even 2 or 3 could shift the momentum considerably. A D-1 QB or WR can change the entire makeup of a team no matter what classification. The real problem is not only that those transfers go to another team they debilitate the team that they transfer from. A case in point is Eastside HS in Gainesville. They used to be an excellent team a few years ago. Some of their best players transfer most every year to Gainesville or Buchholz which is evident by Eastside's losing seasons over the last 8 or 9 years. This is what is happening to so many schools and I just don't think it is the direction that Florida HS football should be striving for.

No doubt certain transfers can have a big impact at a school.  How many schools out there could we say definitively would not have won state titles over the past 10 years had they not gotten large numbers of transfers in a certain year (vs home-grown talent)?  Sure, schools like Armwood, Northwestern and St Thomas get transfers, but they have so much tradition, I don't think they rely upon transfers to compete for titles.   I am thinking of a handful of schools who made fairly astronomical gains over a short period of time.  It is such a small number, there may be other ways to deal with those teams rather than implement across the board restrictions, ie 1-year sit-out.    

  

    

[Hwy17]

9 hours ago, Proseteye said:

Oldschool,

It may be a small number relative to the total of 748 high schools. However, when you see one team with 12 transfers in the summer, as an example, that certainly isn't a small number. I consistently see, on this forum, where certain schools, usually the same schools, are getting transfers almost every week. Sometimes 2 or 3 at one time. Take schools 1A through 5A. A couple of D-1 transfers to the school can be the difference between not even making the playoffs and getting to the final game. 6A through 8A even 2 or 3 could shift the momentum considerably. A D-1 QB or WR can change the entire makeup of a team no matter what classification. The real problem is not only that those transfers go to another team they debilitate the team that they transfer from. A case in point is Eastside HS in Gainesville. They used to be an excellent team a few years ago. Some of their best players transfer most every year to Gainesville or Buchholz which is evident by Eastside's losing seasons over the last 8 or 9 years. This is what is happening to so many schools and I just don't think it is the direction that Florida HS football should be striving for.

This is why I think there should be a cap placed on the number of transfers allowed.  I would favor that over a ranking system for the playoffs. 

[DisabledAccount]

What Old School Lion said wasn't that far off

 

A team like St Thomas Aquinas is gonna have tons of talent without transfers and for the most part the transfers don't add too much to their roster then what they already have

 

But you make that rule no one in 7a will be able to contend with them

 

 

I just wish i understood why so many people are against the transfer rule 

 

You all do realize that the transfer rule just opens up transfers in rural areas, privates and metros have it just as easy now as they did prior to the rule

[Hwy17]

43 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

What Old School Lion said wasn't that far off

 

A team like St Thomas Aquinas is gonna have tons of talent without transfers and for the most part the transfers don't add too much to their roster then what they already have

 

But you make that rule no one in 7a will be able to contend with them

 

 

I just wish i understood why so many people are against the transfer rule 

 

You all do realize that the transfer rule just opens up transfers in rural areas, privates and metros have it just as easy now as they did prior to the rule

I'm not seeing it. What rural school is getting an equal amount of transfers?  And by rural, I don't mean a mid-sized town in an otherwise populated county.  What I'm seeing happen is a single school getting a larger number of transfers while the surrounding schools go to pot. 

 

[DisabledAccount]

20 minutes ago, Hwy17 said:

I'm not seeing it. What rural school is getting an equal amount of transfers?  And by rural, I don't mean a mid-sized town in an otherwise populated county.  What I'm seeing happen is a single school getting a larger number of transfers while the surrounding schools go to pot. 

 

Not equal 

 

But ik we have been getting more lately 

Even though most of them are 9th graders from areas like Hamilton, Suwannee and Baker counties

 

But answer this,  how does this new rule actually hurt rural teams?

 

Private schools and publics in metros have gotten transfers for years and it goes unnoticed, all this means is that rural schools have the ABILITY to get transfers as easy as people could in metros

 

Now the big difference, especially in our case is that schools and areas are very spread out so we won't always attract players 

 

But by definition we could get a transfer in the same way metro schools have done for years

[OldSchoolLion]

2 hours ago, Hwy17 said:

This is why I think there should be a cap placed on the number of transfers allowed.  I would favor that over a ranking system for the playoffs. 

Managing that would be difficult with current resources, I'm sure.  I know it sounds like a cop-out to say "don't try," but I am not sure it is feasible and/or worth the time/energy/expense to do so, especially if it is to be managed in a truly just, consistent and effective manner. 

One state's answer was to form an investigative team of former law enforcement folks to investigate the transfers...questionable considering we are having hundreds of teacher layoffs across the country.  

The root issue is that certain administrations and fans tolerate or even desire "all-star teams."  It is an issue of values...just like some people see nothing wrong with using performance-enhancing drugs, while others do.  Some folks are so driven to win, they will do it with a team full of transfers, and still sleep at night.  Preaching to them or trying to make rules to reign them in is likely going to be of limited effectiveness if they see nothing ethically wrong with what they are doing.  Values have obviously changed over time and I think we simply need to accept that. 

    

 

 

 

 

[Hwy17]

20 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Not equal 

 

But ik we have been getting more lately 

Even though most of them are 9th graders from areas like Hamilton, Suwannee and Baker counties

 

But answer this,  how does this new rule actually hurt rural teams?

 

Private schools and publics in metros have gotten transfers for years and it goes unnoticed, all this means is that rural schools have the ABILITY to get transfers as easy as people could in metros

 

Now the big difference, especially in our case is that schools and areas are very spread out so we won't always attract players 

 

But by definition we could get a transfer in the same way metro schools have done for years

I don't believe anyone takes issue with one or two transfers when a student makes a full and complete move to a new school. Its now we are seeing multiple transfers and as I've stated before it defeats the purpose of classification. So how does it hurt rural teams?  When a certain program can get multiple transfers while the rest of the schools in the same class can't, that school has an unequal advantage.   Image being a rural team with a winning record against other schools of similar size. But your team is lucky to get a transfer if any. But now you got to face a team in your same class that got a dozen or more transfers.  

[Hwy17]

26 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

Managing that would be difficult with current resources, I'm sure.  I know it sounds like a cop-out to say "don't try," but I am not sure it is feasible and/or worth the time/energy/expense to do so, especially if it is to be managed in a truly just, consistent and effective manner. 

One state's answer was to form an investigative team of former law enforcement folks to investigate the transfers...questionable considering we are having hundreds of teacher layoffs across the country.  

The root issue is that certain administrations and fans tolerate or even desire "all-star teams."  It is an issue of values...just like some people see nothing wrong with using performance-enhancing drugs, while others do.  Some folks are so driven to win, they will do it with a team full of transfers, and still sleep at night.  Preaching to them or trying to make rules to reign them in is likely going to be of limited effectiveness if they see nothing ethically wrong with what they are doing.  Values have obviously changed over time and I think we simply need to accept that. 

    

 

 

 

The ones who desire it are going to find a way to make it happen it happen, just as people have figured out ways to bypass drug  

Unfortunately I remember when all the fuss was made about Lakeland in the mid 2000s getting transfers and the demands by a certain program down south that something be done. I also remember the poor way in which FHSAA investigated Armwood after 2011. Some of those families could have sued.

Here's what I think. I think there should be a deadline to transfer and a report filed showing the to/from school, and reason for transferring. Then a limit placed on the net number of transfers allowed. By net, I mean if you had 4 transfer in and 2 out, that's 2 transfers.  Place a number of transfers allowed or play up a class.

[DisabledAccount]

24 minutes ago, Hwy17 said:

I don't believe anyone takes issue with one or two transfers when a student makes a full and complete move to a new school. Its now we are seeing multiple transfers and as I've stated before it defeats the purpose of classification. So how does it hurt rural teams?  When a certain program can get multiple transfers while the rest of the schools in the same class can't, that school has an unequal advantage.   Image being a rural team with a winning record against other schools of similar size. But your team is lucky to get a transfer if any. But now you got to face a team in your same class that got a dozen or more transfers.  

So kinda like how schools in metros have been doing for decades? 

 

You think Lee became good overnight by accident? 

 

Schools on the Westside have over the years had most studs pop up at one school, mainly because most of the schools in that area have limited stability 

 

The reason Lee became so good was the players that previously showed up at Ed White started going to Lee instead because Lee finally had a little stability and Ed White was falling apart 

 

 

Look at Miami 

 

Those schools usually have the top talent line up at a few select schools and it's been that way for a while 

 

So in other words before the rules there was already a huge disadvantage because these metro schools could do something that rural area schools weren't allowed to do

 

Now the rules are set up where metros and rural schools have same transfer rules 

[badbird]

Why couldn't rural teams get them before but can now?  

[OldSchoolLion]

 

18 minutes ago, Hwy17 said:

Unfortunately I remember when all the fuss was made about Lakeland in the mid 2000s getting transfers and the demands by a certain program down south that something be done. I also remember the poor way in which FHSAA investigated Armwood after 2011. Some of those families could have sued.

Here's what I think. I think there should be a deadline to transfer and a report filed showing the to/from school, and reason for transferring. Then a limit placed on the net number of transfers allowed. By net, I mean if you had 4 transfer in and 2 out, that's 2 transfers.  Place a number of transfers allowed or play up a class.

Here's a scenario.  Let's assume the max # of transfer is 3 and they only "count" as transfers if they see playing time.  Transfer #1 is a 2-star athlete and #'s 2 and 3 are both 3-star athletes.  At the last hour before the deadline, a 4-star athlete transfers in and now transfer #1 knows he likely won't get to play unless he transfers yet again.  It's a bit like a fishing tournament in which you can only enter your 3 biggest fish....some fish will end up getting culled.   It could become a big game to end up getting the 3 biggest "catches" before the deadline, with others getting screwed.

[DisabledAccount]

Just now, badbird said:

Why couldn't rural teams get them before but can now?  

My understanding is that under the previous rules you had to be zoned for a school or live in the zone in order to play for a school

 

In metros there are multiple potential loopholes that people have used before to get around that and it was much harder to catch it

 

 

Under school choice you don't have to be zoned for a school in order to attend (at least that's what it sounded like when i read it) 

[Hwy17]

16 minutes ago, badbird said:

Why couldn't rural teams get them before but can now?  

When a rural team gets a transfer its because the family moved. Metro schools have school choice. 

[Hwy17]

15 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

 

Here's a scenario.  Let's assume the max # of transfer is 3 and they only "count" as transfers if they see playing time.  Transfer #1 is a 2-star athlete and #'s 2 and 3 are both 3-star athletes.  At the last hour before the deadline, a 4-star athlete transfers in and now transfer #1 knows he likely won't get to play unless he transfers yet again.  It's a bit like a fishing tournament in which you can only enter your 3 biggest fish....some fish will end up getting culled.   It could become a big game to end up getting the 3 biggest "catches" before the deadline, with others getting screwed.

If your an athlete thinking about transfering because you want to be on a championship team but know there is a possibility you might get cut because you aren't the only transfer would you do it?

[DisabledAccount]

13 minutes ago, Hwy17 said:

When a rural team gets a transfer its because the family moved. Metro schools have school choice. 

Which is how it was prior to the new transfer rules 

 

What i want to know is how does the new rules make things worse for rural schools then they already were

[OldSchoolLion]

1 minute ago, Hwy17 said:

If your an athlete thinking about transfering because you want to be on a championship team but know there is a possibility you might get cut because you aren't the only transfer would you do it?

If there were potential negative consequences, ie I get stuck on the bench the whole season, maybe not.  But I think that's the problem with the system.  There are no negative consequences for my decision because the athlete is always left with a way out.  I can just keep moving around if things don't work out.  It happens today when a players goes to one of the elite schools.  They are taking a chance someone better than them who plays the same position doesn't transfer in.  But if it does happen...oh well, I'll just leave and go somewhere else.          

[Hwy17]

3 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Which is how it was prior to the new transfer rules 

 

What i want to know is how does the new rules make things worse for rural schools then they already were

Because school choice was suppose to be about academics or if the student or parent had a legitimate reason such as parent works closer to the other school and or the student was being bullied at their current school. School districts had some control on if a transfer was legit. Now its anything goes.

[DisabledAccount]

7 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

If there were potential negative consequences, ie I get stuck on the bench the whole season, maybe not.  But I think that's the problem with the system.  There are no negative consequences for my decision because the athlete is always left with a way out.  I can just keep moving around if things don't work out.  It happens today when a players goes to one of the elite schools.  They are taking a chance someone better than them who plays the same position doesn't transfer in.  But if it does happen...oh well, I'll just leave and go somewhere else.          

It isn't much different than how coaches are at the college level

 

Except most of the time people use a double standard and say "the coach has every right to" and that players need to "just shut up and play"

 

 

[Hwy17]

13 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

If there were potential negative consequences, ie I get stuck on the bench the whole season, maybe not.  But I think that's the problem with the system.  There are no negative consequences for my decision because the athlete is always left with a way out.  I can just keep moving around if things don't work out.  It happens today when a players goes to one of the elite schools.  They are taking a chance someone better than them who plays the same position doesn't transfer in.  But if it does happen...oh well, I'll just leave and go somewhere else.          

Which brings up another issue: depth.

Elite team got 12 transfers. The 4star athlete they got goes down they have another to plug in.  The rural school that got no transfers has a 4star athlete too. He goes down and they have to plug in an average player.  Another reason why I think there should be a cap placed on transfers.   Just like the NCAA puts a scholarship limit between FBS, FCS, and lower divisions.