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How Much Did Transfers Affect Last Season's State Champions?


OldSchoolLion

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I thought it might be interesting to break down each of the state title winners from last year to see how much each team relied upon transfers.  I hear so much about this topic, I thought it would be good to have facts versus perceptions.  

Am starting with 3A champion Chaminade-Madonna.  Below were their top players from this past season.  The years listed after the names are years spent at the C-M program.  All were seniors unless noted otherwise.  They did get a couple of good wide receivers who transferred in.  They already had one of the best WR's in the state in Xavier Williams, who is going to Alabama.  The OL they got from STA...not sure anyone would cry over STA losing someone.  

As you'll see, they had a strong core of home-grown players.  Were 4, 3-star transfers the difference between them winning/losing the state title?  Not sure.  But it does appear they would have had a pretty strong team even without them.

 

Chaminade-Madonna

Marvin Alexander –WR transferred from Flanagan for senior season (3-star)

Tecory Couch (Jr)-DB 2015-2018

Davoan Hawkins-DE 2015-2017

Akeem Hayes-WR transferred from Ely for senior season (3-star) 

Daelen Menard-QB 2015-2018

Sebastian Sainterling-OL transferred from St Thomas Aquinas for senior season (3-star)

Shaun Shivers -RB 2014-2017

Keontra Smith (Jr) -DB 2015-2018

CJ Williams –LB 2014-2017

Cameron Williams (Jr)-DE transferred from Nova for junior season (3-star)

Xavier Williams-WR 2014-2017

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1 minute ago, OldSchoolLion said:

I thought it might be interesting to break down each of the state title winners from last year to see how much each team relied upon transfers.  I hear so much about this topic, I thought it would be good to have facts versus perceptions.  

Am starting with 3A champion Chaminade-Madonna.  Below were their top players from this past season.  The years listed after the names are years spent at the C-M program.  All were seniors unless noted otherwise.  They did get a couple of good wide receivers who transferred in.  They already had one of the best WR's in the state in Xavier Williams, who is going to Alabama.  The OL they got from STA...not sure anyone would cry over STA losing someone.  

As you'll see, they had a strong core of home-grown players.  Were 4, 3-star transfers the difference between them winning/losing the state title?  Not sure.  But it does appear they would have had a pretty strong team even without them.

 

Chaminade-Madonna

Marvin Alexander –WR transferred from Flanagan for senior season (3-star)

Tecory Couch (Jr)-DB 2015-2018

Davoan Hawkins-DE 2015-2017

Akeem Hayes-WR transferred from Ely for senior season (3-star) 

Daelen Menard-QB 2015-2018

Sebastian Sainterling-OL transferred from St Thomas Aquinas for senior season (3-star)

Shaun Shivers -RB 2014-2017

Keontra Smith (Jr) -DB 2015-2018

CJ Williams –LB 2014-2017

Cameron Williams (Jr)-DE transferred from Nova for junior season (3-star)

Xavier Williams-WR 2014-2017

Not a single drop

 

Hell i hope STA keeps losing studs to other broward schools, they have had their run now its time for them to step aside and learn what being humbled means 

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16 hours ago, OldSchoolLion said:

I thought it might be interesting to break down each of the state title winners from last year to see how much each team relied upon transfers.  I hear so much about this topic, I thought it would be good to have facts versus perceptions.  

Am starting with 3A champion Chaminade-Madonna.  Below were their top players from this past season.  The years listed after the names are years spent at the C-M program.  All were seniors unless noted otherwise.  They did get a couple of good wide receivers who transferred in.  They already had one of the best WR's in the state in Xavier Williams, who is going to Alabama.  The OL they got from STA...not sure anyone would cry over STA losing someone.  

As you'll see, they had a strong core of home-grown players.  Were 4, 3-star transfers the difference between them winning/losing the state title?  Not sure.  But it does appear they would have had a pretty strong team even without them.

 

Chaminade-Madonna

Marvin Alexander –WR transferred from Flanagan for senior season (3-star)

Tecory Couch (Jr)-DB 2015-2018

Davoan Hawkins-DE 2015-2017

Akeem Hayes-WR transferred from Ely for senior season (3-star) 

Daelen Menard-QB 2015-2018

Sebastian Sainterling-OL transferred from St Thomas Aquinas for senior season (3-star)

Shaun Shivers -RB 2014-2017

Keontra Smith (Jr) -DB 2015-2018

CJ Williams –LB 2014-2017

Cameron Williams (Jr)-DE transferred from Nova for junior season (3-star)

Xavier Williams-WR 2014-2017

How many of the other 7 had transferred in before 2017? How many starters, on their team, have been at Chaminade since their Freshman year? I would bet not many.

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53 minutes ago, Proseteye said:

How many of the other 7 had transferred in before 2017? How many starters, on their team, have been at Chaminade since their Freshman year? I would bet not many.

Menard transferred in from Pace after his Freshman year, I believe.  Not sure if Hawkins was there his Freshman year.  It appears the other seniors were there 4 years and the other juniors apparently will finish their fourth year there.

I think what bothers people the most is when a really talented player transfers in his senior year.  If a kid transfers in and spends 2 or 3 years at the same school, he is investing in the school and vice versa.  Some of these kids may be transferring for reasons beyond athletics, ie a kid has a bad experience in public school his Freshman year and has the opportunity to go to a private school.

Concerning your question in bold, one could ask the same question of any school and C-M might not be that different.  The big story of the data is that C-M didn't have a slew of talent come in to win their title.  

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Dr. Phillips (8A) transfer-in's for 2017:

QB - BeSean McCray - 166/263, 18 TD, 5 INT - 763 rush yards, 9 TD

-

Surprisingly, DP had net transfers of negative-5 for the classes of 2018 and 2019...this includes the following players who left (all major contributors on the teams they transferred to):

Marcus Tillman (LB, Jones, high D1), JeQuan Burton (WR, Jones, D1), Chance Bush (DB, Apopka, D1), Caleb McMillan (RB, Bishop Moore, D1), Keanu Kong (QB, Bishop Moore), Alex Eleyssami (QB, TFA).

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On 7/5/2018 at 5:22 PM, OldSchoolLion said:

I thought it might be interesting to break down each of the state title winners from last year to see how much each team relied upon transfers.  I hear so much about this topic, I thought it would be good to have facts versus perceptions.  

Am starting with 3A champion Chaminade-Madonna.  Below were their top players from this past season.  The years listed after the names are years spent at the C-M program.  All were seniors unless noted otherwise.  They did get a couple of good wide receivers who transferred in.  They already had one of the best WR's in the state in Xavier Williams, who is going to Alabama.  The OL they got from STA...not sure anyone would cry over STA losing someone.  

As you'll see, they had a strong core of home-grown players.  Were 4, 3-star transfers the difference between them winning/losing the state title?  Not sure.  But it does appear they would have had a pretty strong team even without them.

 

Chaminade-Madonna

Marvin Alexander –WR transferred from Flanagan for senior season (3-star)

Tecory Couch (Jr)-DB 2015-2018

Davoan Hawkins-DE 2015-2017

Akeem Hayes-WR transferred from Ely for senior season (3-star) 

Daelen Menard-QB 2015-2018

Sebastian Sainterling-OL transferred from St Thomas Aquinas for senior season (3-star)

Shaun Shivers -RB 2014-2017

Keontra Smith (Jr) -DB 2015-2018

CJ Williams –LB 2014-2017

Cameron Williams (Jr)-DE transferred from Nova for junior season (3-star)

Xavier Williams-WR 2014-2017

What would you consider home grown talent considering CM is a private school..

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On 7/5/2018 at 5:22 PM, OldSchoolLion said:

I thought it might be interesting to break down each of the state title winners from last year to see how much each team relied upon transfers.  I hear so much about this topic, I thought it would be good to have facts versus perceptions.  

Am starting with 3A champion Chaminade-Madonna.  Below were their top players from this past season.  The years listed after the names are years spent at the C-M program.  All were seniors unless noted otherwise.  They did get a couple of good wide receivers who transferred in.  They already had one of the best WR's in the state in Xavier Williams, who is going to Alabama.  The OL they got from STA...not sure anyone would cry over STA losing someone.  

As you'll see, they had a strong core of home-grown players.  Were 4, 3-star transfers the difference between them winning/losing the state title?  Not sure.  But it does appear they would have had a pretty strong team even without them.

 

Chaminade-Madonna

Marvin Alexander –WR transferred from Flanagan for senior season (3-star)

Tecory Couch (Jr)-DB 2015-2018

Davoan Hawkins-DE 2015-2017

Akeem Hayes-WR transferred from Ely for senior season (3-star) 

Daelen Menard-QB 2015-2018

Sebastian Sainterling-OL transferred from St Thomas Aquinas for senior season (3-star)

Shaun Shivers -RB 2014-2017

Keontra Smith (Jr) -DB 2015-2018

CJ Williams –LB 2014-2017

Cameron Williams (Jr)-DE transferred from Nova for junior season (3-star)

Xavier Williams-WR 2014-2017

I work with Marvin Alexander Mom and Dad which they live in Miami Gardens... Home school is Norland or Carol City but never attended those schools... 

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1 hour ago, Zoe Boy said:

What would you consider home grown talent considering CM is a private school..

That's a great question and thanks for asking.  For me, "home grown" is a reflection of the amount of time spent at a certain school and how much time/energy that coaching staff invested in the kid's growth.  Did a coach develop the young man into the football player he is today...or was he already a 4-star junior or senior when he got him?  

In the old days, someone might have said home grown was a kid who grew up in the local neighborhood and spent all 4 years at a school and played on the JV team.  In today's world, I think that is an outdated definition. 

If a kid spends his soph, jr and senior years at a school, I consider that "home grown."   There may be some cases where I might even consider a kid who spent just his jr and sr years there, ie a kid was very raw and had poor coaching his early years and in whom the coaching staff did much developmental work the junior year.

Some people seem to think the elite programs are loading up with older transfers each year and, in that sense, their job is easy.  Yes, STA and C-M will have a few high-profile seniors on their rosters this year who transferred in, and I understand why that turns some folks off. But it appears that each is "growing" most of their talent there at the school rather than simply "importing" it each year. 

I am neutral in all of this.  I look into this stuff to satisfy my own curiosity.

 

 

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On 7/6/2018 at 1:09 PM, Pipe Dreams said:

Dr. Phillips (8A) transfer-in's for 2017:

QB - BeSean McCray - 166/263, 18 TD, 5 INT - 763 rush yards, 9 TD

-

Surprisingly, DP had net transfers of negative-5 for the classes of 2018 and 2019...this includes the following players who left (all major contributors on the teams they transferred to):

Marcus Tillman (LB, Jones, high D1), JeQuan Burton (WR, Jones, D1), Chance Bush (DB, Apopka, D1), Caleb McMillan (RB, Bishop Moore, D1), Keanu Kong (QB, Bishop Moore), Alex Eleyssami (QB, TFA).

It looks like Dr Phillips, like Venice, had (4) 3-star players playing last year.  

Brandon Fields - RB(Soph) 3-star

Davarius Bargnare - WR(Sr) 3-star

John Campbell - OL(Sr) 3-star

Stephen Dix - LB(Soph) 3-star

...compared to south FL schools who had substantially more 3-star or more players, including Deerfield Beach, Atlantic, Southridge, and South Dade.  

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17 minutes ago, Pipe Dreams said:

DP had two more 3 stars last season, for a total of 6.

Tanner Ingle (DB) - NC State

Braxton Clark (DB) - Nebraska

Also the QB, Besean McCray, was a 2-star recruit.

 

Offers should be coming in for others pretty soon.

Thanks Pipe Dreams.:)  Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe none of those 6 "3 stars" mentioned above transferred in this past season.  If so, it is a good example of a team that can win a state title without relying upon transfers to do so.

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I still think that for a small school, 3A and below, that just one or definitely two D-1 players can make the difference between making it deep into the playoffs and not making the playoffs at all. There is a ton of difference especially if those D-1 players are playing key positions and bring two or three prior years of expertise. I have been to so many 3A and below games where there is only one truly standout player and that player carries the team. When that player is out with an injury in many cases the team does not win or struggles to win. Case in point is a team that I support  2A St. John Lutheran. In 2010 and  2011 the Saints won most of their games and went twice to the the 2nd round of the playoffs. D-1 Caleb Alexander was their main RB. The Saints had never been to the playoffs and have not since. They had very few winning seasons before or after Caleb. If just one D-1 player can carry a team to the playoffs imagine what two or three can do. How about 8 or 9?  <_<

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6 minutes ago, Proseteye said:

I still think that for a small school, 3A and below, that just one or definitely two D-1 players can make the difference between making it deep into the playoffs and not making the playoffs at all. There is a ton of difference especially if those D-1 players are playing key positions and bring two or three prior years of expertise. I have been to so many 3A and below games where there is only one truly standout player and that player carries the team. When that player is out with an injury in many cases the team does not win or struggles to win. Case in point is a team that I support  2A St. John Lutheran. In 2010 and  2011 the Saints won most of their games and went twice to the the 2nd round of the playoffs. D-1 Caleb Alexander was their main RB. The Saints had never been to the playoffs and have not since. They had very few winning seasons before or after Caleb. If just one D-1 player can carry a team to the playoffs imagine what two or three can do. How about 8 or 9?  <_<

There is truth to that.  I don't think there are many players (relatively speaking) transferring to small schools for strictly athletic purposes, though.  In 1A-3A last year, there were only a handful of high-profile programs, ie Chaminade, Oxbridge, Champagnat, whose reputation could possibly help get a kid a ticket to college.  But those teams are already so loaded, one or two transfers may not make or break them.   

Does what you describe happen, and maybe just for athletic purposes?  I'm sure it does.  But does it happen at such a frequency that it justifies punishing every athlete in the state with stricter transfer rules?  That's the question for me.  I don't like some of what I see with all of the transfers, but I am trying to keep an open mind about it.         

 

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22 minutes ago, Proseteye said:

I still think that for a small school, 3A and below, that just one or definitely two D-1 players can make the difference between making it deep into the playoffs and not making the playoffs at all. There is a ton of difference especially if those D-1 players are playing key positions and bring two or three prior years of expertise. I have been to so many 3A and below games where there is only one truly standout player and that player carries the team. When that player is out with an injury in many cases the team does not win or struggles to win. Case in point is a team that I support  2A St. John Lutheran. In 2010 and  2011 the Saints won most of their games and went twice to the the 2nd round of the playoffs. D-1 Caleb Alexander was their main RB. The Saints had never been to the playoffs and have not since. They had very few winning seasons before or after Caleb. If just one D-1 player can carry a team to the playoffs imagine what two or three can do. How about 8 or 9?  <_<

Where are these teams getting 8 or 9 transfers in a year that end up starting?  ...or even 6?  Please name the teams and name the fellows who transferred in.  I have been researching and cannot find an example yet.  I trust when you talk about such transfers, you are talking about kids who can start, not a freshmen who will play on the JV.   

 

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9 hours ago, OldSchoolLion said:

Where are these teams getting 8 or 9 transfers in a year that end up starting?  ...or even 6?  Please name the teams and name the fellows who transferred in.  I have been researching and cannot find an example yet.  I trust when you talk about such transfers, you are talking about kids who can start, not a freshmen who will play on the JV.   

 

I'm just going by what I read on this forum. If you look back over some of the messages you can find a lot of evidence where people admit that some schools get multiple transfers. Also, I see messages every day where transfers are mentioned and the same schools seem to be the recipients. So, I'm assuming that the transfers that those schools are getting over the course of a summer has got to be more than just a couple per school. Regardless, there are hundreds of schools that never get one D-1 transfer and those schools have to play with what they have. If that is the way Florida HS football fans want their football programs to run then so be it. I just don't agree with it. To have only a handful of high schools, out of the 750 high schools in Florida, actually having any chance at having a winning season, advancing in the playoffs, or even going to a championship pretty well shows what we are all about. I thought that schools were supposed to be in the business of educating young people in things like fair play, loyalty, team spirit, and reward for dedication. Seems as if I am mistaken.

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2 minutes ago, Proseteye said:

I'm just going by what I read on this forum. If you look back over some of the messages you can find a lot of evidence where people admit that some schools get multiple transfers. Also, I see messages every day where transfers are mentioned and the same schools seem to be the recipients. So, I'm assuming that the transfers that those schools are getting over the course of a summer has got to be more than just a couple per school. Regardless, there are hundreds of schools that never get one D-1 transfer and those schools have to play with what they have. If that is the way Florida HS football fans want their football programs to run then so be it. I just don't agree with it. To have only a handful of high schools, out of the 750 high schools in Florida, actually having any chance at having a winning season, advancing in the playoffs, or even going to a championship pretty well shows what we are all about. I thought that schools were supposed to be in the business of educating young people in things like fair play, loyalty, team spirit, and reward for dedication. Seems as if I am mistaken.

A good number of these transfer players end up being solid contributors, but not necessarily gamechangers for their new teams.  The transfers can help, but their influence may not be as great as we think in some cases.  

The kids and parents are pushing for a ticket to college and the colleges/recruiters are chumming the feeding frenzy.  Those are the main drivers for our current state.  The schools and coaches are in the middle.  I don't think it is a matter of them or the fans necessarily wanting it this way.  

 

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Chaminade didn't need a bunch of transfers in 2017. Jason Milgrom did a great job turning the program around and building a solid core.  Even without the transfers, CM still had a lot of Milgom's players left as we go into 2018.  Now 2019 and on is on coach Jones and the administration to continue to let guys in.

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14 hours ago, Proseteye said:

I'm just going by what I read on this forum. If you look back over some of the messages you can find a lot of evidence where people admit that some schools get multiple transfers. Also, I see messages every day where transfers are mentioned and the same schools seem to be the recipients. So, I'm assuming that the transfers that those schools are getting over the course of a summer has got to be more than just a couple per school. Regardless, there are hundreds of schools that never get one D-1 transfer and those schools have to play with what they have. If that is the way Florida HS football fans want their football programs to run then so be it. I just don't agree with it. To have only a handful of high schools, out of the 750 high schools in Florida, actually having any chance at having a winning season, advancing in the playoffs, or even going to a championship pretty well shows what we are all about. I thought that schools were supposed to be in the business of educating young people in things like fair play, loyalty, team spirit, and reward for dedication. Seems as if I am mistaken.

Here's an example of the external forces affecting the game.  Larry Blustein writes this young man's "stock rose" when he moved to Deerfield Beach.  It is statements such as these than can influence the kids and get them thinking that Deerfield Beach is the ticket.  It sounds like he was getting ample attention at Douglas.    

https://wqam.radio.com/articles/feature-article/post-season-huddle-miles-dickens-deerfield-beach

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15 hours ago, OldSchoolLion said:

Here's an example of the external forces affecting the game.  Larry Blustein writes this young man's "stock rose" when he moved to Deerfield Beach.  It is statements such as these than can influence the kids and get them thinking that Deerfield Beach is the ticket.  It sounds like he was getting ample attention at Douglas.    

https://wqam.radio.com/articles/feature-article/post-season-huddle-miles-dickens-deerfield-beach

But he’s telling the truth... The Blu man knows his stuff n keep it 100

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This past season, there were 66 senior, 4 or 5 star athletes in Florida, according to 247sports.  11 of those 66 went to IMG.  Of the remaining 55, 10 of them, or 18%, transferred somewhere to play their senior year-see list below.  Interestingly, 8 of the 10 were defensive players.

The remainder played multiple years at the school from which they graduated.  Looking at the list of 10 below below, it is questionable whether any of them made a drastic difference in the team's overall performance, ie single-handedly turned a mediocre team into a title contender.

186 Florida seniors got scholarships to Power 5 schools.  20 of those went to IMG, leaving 166.  Let's say 18% of those 166 transferred prior to this past year.  That is 30 high caliber kids in the state who might be transferring in any one year...really not that many.  I think a substantial number of the rest who are moving around are "B+" or "B-" kids looking for that little edge to land them a scholarship to somewhere like a MAC school. 

Northwestern, Deerfield Beach, Chaminade-Madonna, St Thomas Aquinas and Armwood all got 3 transfer athletes rated 3 stars who played this past season.  Only one of those athletes was a 4-star.  I believe all of those teams would have performed well without those transfers.  Based on what I have learned so far, I don't think transfers are making a huge difference in who appears in the title game each year.

Jacob Copeland(WR) transferred from Pine Forest to Escambia

Jashaun Corbin(DE) transferred from Holy Trinity to Rockledge

Amari Burney(S) transferred from Clearwater Central Catholic to Calvary Chrisitan

Cleveland Reed(OL) transferred from Lakeland to Fort Meade

David Reese(LB) transferred from Fort Pierce Central to Vero Beach

Gurvan Hall(S) transferred from PB Lakes to PB Gardens 

Robert Hicks(LB) transferred from Booker T to Miami Central 

Kayode Oladele(DE) transferred from Edison to Champagnat 

Nadab Joseph(CB) transferred from Champagnat to Norland

Divaad Wilson(CB) transferred from Monsignor Pace to Northwestern 

 

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