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OldSchoolLion

How Big Was Venice's Win over STA? Talent Comparison

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The data below is mindblowing.  I've heard some say this was a down year for St Thomas Aquinas.  That is difficult to fathom with 28 potential D1 recruits on the team.  I think we overemphasize individual talent in predicting team performance.  In many team sports, "The sum of the parts does not equal the whole."   That is not to take anything away from STA, who had a season many teams would only dream of.  I knew this was a big win for Venice, but did not realize quite how big until I put together this information.

3 Star and Up Talent on Each Roster

STA Offense - (1) 5-star player, (3) 4-star players, (9) 3-star players 

Venice Offense - (2) 3-star players

STA Defense - (8) 4-star players, (7) 3-star players

Venice Defense - (2) 3-star players

 

Venice Offense

Bryce Carpenter-QB(Sr) (3-star)

Jaivon Heighleigh-WR(Sr) (3-star)

 

Venice Defense

Tyrone Barber-DT(Sr) (3-star)

Jeremy Trebbles-CB(Sr) (3-star) 

 

STA Offense

Curt Casteel-QB(Jr) (3-star)

Marcus Rosemy-RB(Soph) (5-star)

Daniel Carter-RB(Jr) (4-star)

Nigel White - RB(Jr) (3-star)

Elijah Moore-WR(Sr) (4-star)

Tavares Kelly-WR(Sr) (3-star)

Jamal Cooney-WR(Jr) (3-star)

Marcus Dumervil-OL(Soph) (4-star)

Jason Swann-OL(Sr) (3-star)

Julian Hernandez - OL(Jr) (3-star)

Vincent Murphy-OL(Jr) (3-star)

Jake Pope-OL(Jr) (3-star)

Tyler Steen-OL(Sr) (3-star)

 

STA Defense

Dez Dumervil Jean-DT(Sr) (3-star)

Nik Bonitto-DE(Sr) (4-star)

Jason Munoz-DE(Jr) (3-star)

D’Andre Ragin-LB(Sr) (3-star)

Rocky Shelton-LB(Sr) (3-star)

Anthony Solomon-LB(Jr) (4-star)

Derek Wingo-LB(Soph) (4-star)

Jahmar Brown-LB(Jr) (3-star)

Al Blades Jr-CB(Sr) (4-star)

Jaden Davis-CB (Jr) (4-star)

Semar Melvin-CB(Sr) (3-star)

Asante Samuel-CB(Sr) (4-star)

Myles Bell-CB(Jr) (3-star)

Trenell Troutman-S(Sr) (4-star)

Jordan Battle-S(Jr)  (4-star)

 

 

 

 

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This is basically what i attempted to state over on other thread only i was too lazy to look up the exact numbers of recruits on both teams 

 

Even in their down year they had better talent then Venice and considering how deep it goes they should have beaten Venice

 

 

So one of 2 things

 

Either talent and star rankings are overrated and doesn't guarantee championships at high school level 

 

Or Venice out coached St Thomas Aquinas 

 

I can buy either theory 

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12 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

This is basically what i attempted to state over on other thread only i was too lazy to look up the exact numbers of recruits on both teams 

Even in their down year they had better talent then Venice and considering how deep it goes they should have beaten Venice

So one of 2 things

Either talent and star rankings are overrated and doesn't guarantee championships at high school level 

Or Venice out coached St Thomas Aquinas 

I can buy either theory 

The University of Wisconsin basketball program is a poster child for getting tremendous team performance with B+ athletes.  Their coach in the 90's, Dick Bennett, was a genius for devising a game plan that utilized the talent he had to work with.  ...from Wikipedia "Bennett recruited players who were willing to place teamwork and discipline ahead of personal statistics. His players excelled in the classroom as well as on the court. While few NBA players emerged from his programs, most of his players have gone on to success in other careers, including coaching. Bennett is best known for devising the "pack line" defense, a gap defense that clogs up potential driving lanes and prevents ballhandlers from getting to the paint. His influence on defense brought him fame in the 2014 NCAA Tournament, when four teams in the Sweet 16 used the "pack line."

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14 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

This is basically what i attempted to state over on other thread only i was too lazy to look up the exact numbers of recruits on both teams 

 

Even in their down year they had better talent then Venice and considering how deep it goes they should have beaten Venice

 

 

So one of 2 things

 

Either talent and star rankings are overrated and doesn't guarantee championships at high school level 

 

Or Venice out coached St Thomas Aquinas 

 

I can buy either theory 

2 things happened

1 STA did not take Venice as serious as they could have. Based off of players they shouldn't have. In such they did what I think was poor job coaching. If you watched the game or saw film STA could have run the short passing game all night and threw screen passes to put Venice defense in a disadvantage all night. They ran those 2 plays in the last drive successfully.

2 Conditioning of athletes and the long ride. STA showed up got off the bus and started into routine. It sucks making that drive. Venice knows that from experience. The conditioning of running no huddle paid off in the late 3rd and all of the 4th QT. Dumervill could barely keeps his uniform on straight much less get back to the line of scrimmage before the next play. 

In the end the Venice kids do more with less. They grew up after the loss the year before and proved they were not a flash in the pan. 

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46 minutes ago, Floridatech said:

This is very comparable to the STA and Dwyer game in 2013 STA was down or injured but Dwyer was able to capitalize on that, I still believe to this day that Dwyer and Venice both caught STA in down years tho

Sta may have been down but the point is that even down they still had far better talent

 

Them losing was on them

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1 hour ago, Floridatech said:

This is very comparable to the STA and Dwyer game in 2013 STA was down or injured but Dwyer was able to capitalize on that, I still believe to this day that Dwyer and Venice both caught STA in down years tho

How can a team with 28 prospective D1 players, including 12 "4-5 star" players, be considered "down?." :rolleyes:

STA's 2014 team, which was considered one of the best in the country...I believe they had 6 "4-star" players.

 

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How many stars awarded for just being at STA though? 
I know scouts and coaches look at the film, they look at measurables like height, weight, speed, jumping ability at all of these combines. I am not suggesting I could do their job better than it is already being done, but stars do not mean anything. How much easier is it to beat a blocker when the guy on the other side of the line line is getting two blockers because he is a 4* recruit as well. How much easier is it to get open when the other 4* WR is just as good as you ande demands double coverage? 

Sometimes, I do think these rankings companies have a little bias towards a big name program that consistently produces recruits (which then becomes a self-fullfilling cycle of recruits). 

Don't get me wrong, these recruits also produce consistent wins, but this is also why the Division 1 (64 team division) would be great. Great teams facing great teams.

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5 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

How many stars awarded for just being at STA though? 
I know scouts and coaches look at the film, they look at measurables like height, weight, speed, jumping ability at all of these combines. I am not suggesting I could do their job better than it is already being done, but stars do not mean anything. How much easier is it to beat a blocker when the guy on the other side of the line line is getting two blockers because he is a 4* recruit as well. How much easier is it to get open when the other 4* WR is just as good as you ande demands double coverage? 

Sometimes, I do think these rankings companies have a little bias towards a big name program that consistently produces recruits (which then becomes a self-fullfilling cycle of recruits). 

Don't get me wrong, these recruits also produce consistent wins, but this is also why the Division 1 (64 team division) would be great. Great teams facing great teams.

I agree 100%

 

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1 hour ago, gatorman-uf said:

How many stars awarded for just being at STA though? 
I know scouts and coaches look at the film, they look at measurables like height, weight, speed, jumping ability at all of these combines. I am not suggesting I could do their job better than it is already being done, but stars do not mean anything. How much easier is it to beat a blocker when the guy on the other side of the line line is getting two blockers because he is a 4* recruit as well. How much easier is it to get open when the other 4* WR is just as good as you ande demands double coverage? 

Sometimes, I do think these rankings companies have a little bias towards a big name program that consistently produces recruits (which then becomes a self-fullfilling cycle of recruits). 

Don't get me wrong, these recruits also produce consistent wins, but this is also why the Division 1 (64 team division) would be great. Great teams facing great teams.

It's a very valid point and I believe there is some level of truth to it.  And a reason why a St Thomas Aquinas likely does not need to go out of its way to attract talent. 

There is something very troubling about this whole scenario of for-profit companies being involved with ranking athletes...and the fact I am raising the issue is NOT my way of implying anyone is doing it.   A program/coach could pay off these services to get its athletes better rankings, allowing the hs program to better market itself as a ticket to scholarships.    

 

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1 minute ago, OldSchoolLion said:

It's a very valid point and I believe there is some level of truth to it.  And a reason why a St Thomas Aquinas likely does not need to go out of its way to attract talent. 

There is something very troubling about this whole scenario of for-profit companies being involved with ranking athletes...and the fact I am raising the issue is NOT my way of implying anyone is doing it.   A program/coach could pay off these services to get its athletes better rankings, allowing the hs program to better market itself as a ticket to scholarships.    

 

Wouldn't be the most ethical thing but I've seen programs do far worse things in the past so i wouldn't put it past people to do it

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1 hour ago, OldSchoolLion said:

How can a team with 28 prospective D1 players, including 12 "4-5 star" players, be considered "down?." :rolleyes:

STA's 2014 team, which was considered one of the best in the country...I believe they had 6 "4-star" players.

 

You do know that STA was down or injured in 2013 right i really don't think you're a Florida guy frfr everybody from this state knows that they were down or injured that year pretty similar to last season y'all just mad cuz y'all can't beat em on the field 

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8 minutes ago, Floridatech said:

You do know that STA was down or injured in 2013 right i really don't think you're a Florida guy frfr everybody from this state knows that they were down or injured that year pretty similar to last season y'all just mad cuz y'all can't beat em on the field 

I would love for Columbia to be "down" like St Thomas Aquinas 

 

It would be more d1 talent then we have in our best years

 

So quit making excuses, St Thomas Aquinas lost in the playoffs because they showed either they couldn't out coach Venice or maybe they just didn't have the same heart Venice had because St Thomas Aquinas is used to being handed everything with a silver spoon in their mouth 

 

They just like Bolles, both are silver spoon programs that need to be sent back to Earth from time to time because otherwise homers will act like they can never lose

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13 minutes ago, Floridatech said:

You do know that STA was down or injured in 2013 right i really don't think you're a Florida guy frfr everybody from this state knows that they were down or injured that year pretty similar to last season y'all just mad cuz y'all can't beat em on the field 

You a raider fan now? 

 

 

What happened to Vero Beach?

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8 minutes ago, Floridatech said:

You do know that STA was down or injured in 2013 right i really don't think you're a Florida guy frfr everybody from this state knows that they were down or injured that year pretty similar to last season y'all just mad cuz y'all can't beat em on the field 

I think you misunderstood my comment, Flo.  I don't question STA being down in 2013.  My point was that if STA's 2014 team was a good team(14-1 and nationally ranked) and had 6 "4-star" players,  I struggle to see how this year's STA team was "down" from a talent perspective recognizing they have as many or more 4-star athletes.  

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When you have more d1 players than anyone in your class and you claim they only didn't win states because they down

 

I call excuses, excuses!

 

Whenever St Thomas Aquinas is up their fans act like "we better than you because your program is worthless"

 

But they are the biggest crybabies whenever things don't go their way

 

Silver spoon all the way 

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52 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

They just like Bolles, both are silver spoon programs that need to be sent back to Earth from time to time because otherwise homers will act like they can never lose

Homers? Acting like their programs never lose? Gosh, I wish I knew somebody like that.

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12 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

Homers? Acting like their programs never lose? Gosh, I wish I knew somebody like that.

I never said we don't lose 

 

But if someone is gonna run their mouth without knowing any of the facts i will set them straight 

 

And it shows a lack of respect for me when people claim to know more about a game they weren't at when I was actually at the game

 

By stating that you would be implying that I'm too stupid to analyze what's happening in front of me and that i do take offense to

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9 hours ago, 941football said:

2 things happened

1 STA did not take Venice as serious as they could have. Based off of players they shouldn't have. In such they did what I think was poor job coaching. If you watched the game or saw film STA could have run the short passing game all night and threw screen passes to put Venice defense in a disadvantage all night. They ran those 2 plays in the last drive successfully.

2 Conditioning of athletes and the long ride. STA showed up got off the bus and started into routine. It sucks making that drive. Venice knows that from experience. The conditioning of running no huddle paid off in the late 3rd and all of the 4th QT. Dumervill could barely keeps his uniform on straight much less get back to the line of scrimmage before the next play. 

In the end the Venice kids do more with less. They grew up after the loss the year before and proved they were not a flash in the pan. 

This is so on point!!

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4 hours ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

I would love for Columbia to be "down" like St Thomas Aquinas 

 

It would be more d1 talent then we have in our best years

 

So quit making excuses, St Thomas Aquinas lost in the playoffs because they showed either they couldn't out coach Venice or maybe they just didn't have the same heart Venice had because St Thomas Aquinas is used to being handed everything with a silver spoon in their mouth 

 

They just like Bolles, both are silver spoon programs that need to be sent back to Earth from time to time because otherwise homers will act like they can never lose

??????

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12 hours ago, OldSchoolLion said:

I think you misunderstood my comment, Flo.  I don't question STA being down in 2013.  My point was that if STA's 2014 team was a good team(14-1 and nationally ranked) and had 6 "4-star" players,  I struggle to see how this year's STA team was "down" from a talent perspective recognizing they have as many or more 4-star athletes.  

This year STA not going to be down all they gotta do is beat Dwyer and now im hearing Doral is good too

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3 minutes ago, Floridatech said:

This year STA not going to be down all they gotta do is beat Dwyer and now im hearing Doral is good too

If they qb don’t ball STA ain’t going nowhere plus their oline also wasn’t up to par like prior teams they had... Ppl fail to realize that also about STA last year

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11 hours ago, gatorman-uf said:

Homers? Acting like their programs never lose? Gosh, I wish I knew somebody like that.

I never seen STA fans act like that ... I guess Jit think all STA fans is like Los...

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1 minute ago, Zoe Boy said:

If they qb don’t ball STA ain’t going nowhere plus their oline also wasn’t up to par like prior teams they had... Ppl fail to realize that also about STA last year

In my eyesight I think they where down just like in 2013 when dwyer beat em

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