Duval county response to raines-lee shooting

[DisabledAccount]

Can someone please explain to me what moving game times will accomplish if you don't have better police presence outside the stadiums

 

This is just a diversion attempt to avoid putting more resources into law enforcement presence being increased at and around public events

 

When will these decision makers realize that moving a few kickoff times Does nothing to fix the issues

 

 

[gatorman-uf]

While the recent shooting at the Jacksonville Landing tells us otherwise, criminal behavior seems to increase as darkness descends. People are willing to take chances because the night hides their faces and their actions. 

I am not opposed to this as a whole. 5:30 is early enough that students could stay on campus until the game. Game over and done before darkness really begins to set in and many of the people looking to cause chaos are just rolling out of their beds. It is the same reason why games are played on Saturday mornings. What criminal wants to be up that early? As long as one of the teams playing isn't driving a far distance, this seems okay. For example, I would expect Duval County to not require games involving Columbia to be at 5:30 for the sake of driving.

From Mandarin High School to First Coast High School is probably by bus an hour in afternoon traffic. If you could leave at 2:30, get there by 3:30 as the students empty out. It gives you two hours to tape up and warm up, game at 5:30, done by 8:30, off the bus by 10. I would also expect that this will be more isolated in terms of games. I don't see them telling Paxton and Stanton to move the game to 5:30 because of a threat of violence. 

[DisabledAccount]

17 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

While the recent shooting at the Jacksonville Landing tells us otherwise, criminal behavior seems to increase as darkness descends. People are willing to take chances because the night hides their faces and their actions. 

I am not opposed to this as a whole. 5:30 is early enough that students could stay on campus until the game. Game over and done before darkness really begins to set in and many of the people looking to cause chaos are just rolling out of their beds. It is the same reason why games are played on Saturday mornings. What criminal wants to be up that early? As long as one of the teams playing isn't driving a far distance, this seems okay. For example, I would expect Duval County to not require games involving Columbia to be at 5:30 for the sake of driving.

From Mandarin High School to First Coast High School is probably by bus an hour in afternoon traffic. If you could leave at 2:30, get there by 3:30 as the students empty out. It gives you two hours to tape up and warm up, game at 5:30, done by 8:30, off the bus by 10. I would also expect that this will be more isolated in terms of games. I don't see them telling Paxton and Stanton to move the game to 5:30 because of a threat of violence. 

I get this but it feels like they are trying to take the easy way out instead of addressing the real cause of it

 

 

[badbird]

17 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

I get this but it feels like they are trying to take the easy way out instead of addressing the real cause of it

 

 

100%.

[DisabledAccount]

@badbird

 

I wasnt referring to anything political 

 

I'm referring to the fact that instead of being willing to spend money to make things safer the people in power try to make excuses so they can take the cheap option instead of the right one 

[badbird]

Just now, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

@badbird

 

I wasnt referring to anything political 

 

I'm referring to the fact that instead of being willing to spend money to make things safer the people in power try to make excuses so they can take the cheap option instead of the right one 

we have no money 

[DisabledAccount]

1 minute ago, badbird said:

we have no money 

They have money

 

It is just put in a different area

 

FL puts so much towards tourism that schools and safety always take second priority in the state

[badbird]

Just now, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

They have money

 

It is just put in a different area

 

FL puts so much towards tourism that schools and safety always take second priority in the state

I see it in my paycheck every two weeks they don't give a shit about education.  

[badbird]

13 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

@badbird

 

I wasnt referring to anything political 

 

I'm referring to the fact that instead of being willing to spend money to make things safer the people in power try to make excuses so they can take the cheap option instead of the right one 

the whole move of times is 100% political

[DisabledAccount]

9 minutes ago, badbird said:

the whole move of times is 100% political

Yeah but there is a rule on here against discussing politics involving left vs right on the board (unless it's in off topic section)

 

That's why I'm trying to have this discussion while staying clear of that form of politics 

[gatorman-uf]

This isn't political, it is socioeconomic. It is not Republican or Democrat or liberal or conservative. It is responsible decision making. You are asking a Superintendent/Mayor/Sheriff to fix entire communities to "solve" this problem. 

If you have ever been to a Florida-Georgia football game in Jacksonville, you will know that fights happen. They are actually quite common among these drunken bunch of fans. There have been numerous injuries and even deaths (usually alcohol related) and that is when the entire Sheriff's Office and numerous surrounding LEOs are there to make sure there is safety. Even if we are just talking about the area surrounding the stadium.  

There is only so much that LEOs can do and it ultimately comes on the fans and the community members to act appropriately. In this case, the Superintendent and the School Board are doing their best.  Reminder, football games are not part of the regular budget of the Sheriff, they are essentially Special Events.

A quick search of the internet tells me that Duval County Sheriff Officer's get paid $35 an hour for a special event. So if you have them there at 5 p.m. until 11 pm you are talking that is $210 per officer. If you have a crowd of 4,000. If you want an impressive show of force that would be 100 officers (1 for every 40 people there) which would be $21,000 in security costs for one game. If you want to do 40 officers, (1 for every 100 people there) that would be $8,100 per game. 

And remember, the problem wasn't in the game. It was after the game. This shooting could have happened anywhere. It just so happened at a football game because there was a crowd. The shooter still hasn't been caught to my knowledge, I doubt the Sheriff could have done any more.

One solution for Jacksonville in these situations would to have Jaguar stadium host some of these bigger match-ups. Easier to control security (and more professional). People, even in the Stadium are far spread out, so they are less likely to fight each other. Could easily prevent one side of fans from intermingling from the others and easier to prevent them encroaching each other after the game. 

Honestly, I am always very surprised that the Jaguars and the Bucs don't take the first HS football week and host 2 games on Friday (5:00 and 8:00) and 3 games on Saturday before College and NFL start (noon, 4:00, 7:30) as a free promotion of the teams. Promise to pay for the football, cheer, and band buses and let the students in free with an ID or for $2. I would assume the teams could write the whole thing off as a donation and considering they made over $255 million in national revenue (not even factoring local revenue of most likely $200+ million), finding a few hundred thousands for a community event celebrating your sport at the local level should be the bare minimum that we expect these teams to do. Spitballing, other than hosting a few college games, Jaguar Stadium (TIAA Field) is mostly empty every weekend. Do we lose the home field advantage to have a safer and more secure stadium site?

I would love for KHAAAAAAN to be pro-active on this and suggest this for this year.

 

[badbird]

so responsible decision making is to play every game Saturday Morning?  I disagree.  It's a knee jerk reaction to calm the idiots who think this will somehow help

[DisabledAccount]

3 minutes ago, badbird said:

so responsible decision making is to play every game Saturday Morning?  I disagree.  It's a knee jerk reaction to calm the idiots who think this will somehow help

It won't help 

 

This is just a action that will keep people busy but it will happen again because this was taking no real action 

 

Moving kickoff times does nothing 

[DisabledAccount]

11 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

This isn't political, it is socioeconomic. It is not Republican or Democrat or liberal or conservative. It is responsible decision making. You are asking a Superintendent/Mayor/Sheriff to fix entire communities to "solve" this problem. 

If you have ever been to a Florida-Georgia football game in Jacksonville, you will know that fights happen. They are actually quite common among these drunken bunch of fans. There have been numerous injuries and even deaths (usually alcohol related) and that is when the entire Sheriff's Office and numerous surrounding LEOs are there to make sure there is safety. Even if we are just talking about the area surrounding the stadium.  

There is only so much that LEOs can do and it ultimately comes on the fans and the community members to act appropriately. In this case, the Superintendent and the School Board are doing their best.  Reminder, football games are not part of the regular budget of the Sheriff, they are essentially Special Events.

A quick search of the internet tells me that Duval County Sheriff Officer's get paid $35 an hour for a special event. So if you have them there at 5 p.m. until 11 pm you are talking that is $210 per officer. If you have a crowd of 4,000. If you want an impressive show of force that would be 100 officers (1 for every 40 people there) which would be $21,000 in security costs for one game. If you want to do 40 officers, (1 for every 100 people there) that would be $8,100 per game. 

And remember, the problem wasn't in the game. It was after the game. This shooting could have happened anywhere. It just so happened at a football game because there was a crowd. The shooter still hasn't been caught to my knowledge, I doubt the Sheriff could have done any more.

One solution for Jacksonville in these situations would to have Jaguar stadium host some of these bigger match-ups. Easier to control security (and more professional). People, even in the Stadium are far spread out, so they are less likely to fight each other. Could easily prevent one side of fans from intermingling from the others and easier to prevent them encroaching each other after the game. 

Honestly, I am always very surprised that the Jaguars and the Bucs don't take the first HS football week and host 2 games on Friday (5:00 and 8:00) and 3 games on Saturday before College and NFL start (noon, 4:00, 7:30) as a free promotion of the teams. Promise to pay for the football, cheer, and band buses and let the students in free with an ID or for $2. I would assume the teams could write the whole thing off as a donation and considering they made over $255 million in national revenue (not even factoring local revenue of most likely $200+ million), finding a few hundred thousands for a community event celebrating your sport at the local level should be the bare minimum that we expect these teams to do. Spitballing, other than hosting a few college games, Jaguar Stadium (TIAA Field) is mostly empty every weekend. Do we lose the home field advantage to have a safer and more secure stadium site?

I would love for KHAAAAAAN to be pro-active on this and suggest this for this year.

 

I agree

 

I'm surprised that the Jags or even UNF haven't offered to host a few of these big games, to help out the local community 

 

Makes me wonder if they really care about the local community at all

[OldSchoolLion]

Based on what I read, the Jacksonville shooting involved 2 male victims with known ties to gangs.  And the shooting in Palm Beach apparently is believed to be an event from the surrounding community that "spilled over" to the unsecured area around the stadium...and is being investigated by the violent crimes unit.   

Was not aware, but just learned that one of the vendors at the PB game was robbed and beaten up by 3 individuals while he was evacuating.   

https://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/wellington-game-shooting-vendor-mugged-running-with-cash-box/UQntTd7HT5d7a8hDOIxmcO/

 

[gatorman-uf]

We will have to disagree then about start times. How many officers do you want? 3/4 of the crowd had left there were were 50 security officers, 30 in uniform according to one article and were about 20 minutes from dismissing all of them for the night.

Again, the knuckleheads will stay home when they know the darkness will not be able to cover their deeds. Again, what solutions do you have for solving these bigger issues? I gave you the numbers for what a true show of force looks like. Are you willing to fundraise 21K per game? If we assume that 17 public schools and assume they playing each other 9 weeks of the season, you are talking a security bill at nearly 700K for 40 officers per game and 1.7 million for 100 officers per game. Granted, Stanton vs Paxton will not need 100 officers (probably not even 40), but I am trying to show you how expensive security can be. If these games have less than 1000 people (and many of them do), there is absolutely no money going into the program, it is all going for security. 

The bigger issues can't be solved in one day unless you are physically going to let the police go ham in all of these communities to root out all gang violence, drug dealers, prostitutes, pimps, pushers, bail skippers, and people with warrants. 

I have been to enough Duval County games to know that 4000 person crowds happen for maybe 3 public school games a year (Ribault-Raines, Lee-Raines, Fletcher-Sandalwood).  Terry Parker, Englewood, Wolfson, Paxton, Stanton aren't pulling crowds like that for football season. 

Just curious, why are you against moving the times? I have seen numerous games (Pahokee-Glades, Raines-Ribault) moved to Saturdays with no problems. And I don't think, they are suggesting moving every game to Saturday or even 5:30, just certain ones where a crowd will be a problem. 

One of the biggest problems for schools like Raines, Ribault, Lee, is that they are schools nestled into their communities. There is no parking, there is no controllable area for the most part. Violence can happen in about 30 different places at any of these games. 

UNF would be the worst possible place to host a game (they only have bleachers on one side of the field). JU isn't big enough and way too out of the way. TIAA Field (God, I hate sponsored stadium/fields/parks) is centrally located. Security would be easier to handle as there are two alternative sides of the stadium to keep people separated. Easier to wand people, harder to have slipped gun or weapons into the stadium before the game. I could easily see Duval County working with the Jaguars to host an Opening Weekend next year. 

[DisabledAccount]

5 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

We will have to disagree then about start times. How many officers do you want? 3/4 of the crowd had left there were were 50 security officers, 30 in uniform according to one article and were about 20 minutes from dismissing all of them for the night.

Again, the knuckleheads will stay home when they know the darkness will not be able to cover their deeds. Again, what solutions do you have for solving these bigger issues? I gave you the numbers for what a true show of force looks like. Are you willing to fundraise 21K per game? If we assume that 17 public schools and assume they playing each other 9 weeks of the season, you are talking a security bill at nearly 700K for 40 officers per game and 1.7 million for 100 officers per game. Granted, Stanton vs Paxton will not need 100 officers (probably not even 40), but I am trying to show you how expensive security can be. If these games have less than 1000 people (and many of them do), there is absolutely no money going into the program, it is all going for security. 

The bigger issues can't be solved in one day unless you are physically going to let the police go ham in all of these communities to root out all gang violence, drug dealers, prostitutes, pimps, pushers, bail skippers, and people with warrants. 

I have been to enough Duval County games to know that 4000 person crowds happen for maybe 3 public school games a year (Ribault-Raines, Lee-Raines, Fletcher-Sandalwood).  Terry Parker, Englewood, Wolfson, Paxton, Stanton aren't pulling crowds like that for football season. 

Just curious, why are you against moving the times? I have seen numerous games (Pahokee-Glades, Raines-Ribault) moved to Saturdays with no problems. And I don't think, they are suggesting moving every game to Saturday or even 5:30, just certain ones where a crowd will be a problem. 

One of the biggest problems for schools like Raines, Ribault, Lee, is that they are schools nestled into their communities. There is no parking, there is no controllable area for the most part. Violence can happen in about 30 different places at any of these games. 

UNF would be the worst possible place to host a game (they only have bleachers on one side of the field). JU isn't big enough and way too out of the way. TIAA Field (God, I hate sponsored stadium/fields/parks) is centrally located. Security would be easier to handle as there are two alternative sides of the stadium to keep people separated. Easier to wand people, harder to have slipped gun or weapons into the stadium before the game. I could easily see Duval County working with the Jaguars to host an Opening Weekend next year. 

I am not against moving times if it would actually work

 

I just don't think it is fixing the issue and is instead just pretending to be problem solvers by doing effectively nothing

 

I wasn't aware of that with UNF 

 

Only suggested in case jags weren't willing to let their field be used since I saw that suggested somewhere recently 

[DisabledAccount]

Yeah been to Lee a few times 

 

I think that's why they call it the backyard, bc you can see entire game from backyard without buying a ticket 

[peezy28]

6 hours ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Can someone please explain to me what moving game times will accomplish if you don't have better police presence outside the stadiums

 

This is just a diversion attempt to avoid putting more resources into law enforcement presence being increased at and around public events

 

When will these decision makers realize that moving a few kickoff times Does nothing to fix the issues

 

 

Changing the time has helped vastly at youth league games in my county that used to end around 10pm but now end around 530 where violence used to occur

[Jags904]

It’s a lot easier to police things in the light than it is at night. I’ve been to every stadium in the city from Atlantic Coast to Raines to Sandalwood to Westside. The Raines v Ribault game used to be bad, I had a friends wife get jumped and robbed on Friday night and that was not UNCOMMON. It’s now my favorite football game every year and everyone feels safe there. 

Saturday morning games need to be the go to from now on. 10am start times. 

[OldSchoolLion]

...just the facts, please  check out the chart at the link below.

violent crime by adults peaks at around 10 pm.  about half the risk at 11AM in the morning.

https://www.ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/offenders/qa03401.asp?qaDate=2010&text=no

[Proseteye]

It's difficult enough now for parents and fans to get to the games by 7:30 PM due to work or studies. How are they going to get to games by 5:30 PM? The reason, I believe, that games in Florida are played evenings instead of on Saturday afternoons, as they do in many of the northern states, it's due to the heat. Moving the game times is giving in to the thugs. You don't give in, you stop the thugs. Whatever it takes to stop the thugs you do it, period.

[gatorman-uf]

Again

30 minutes ago, Proseteye said:

The reason, I believe, that games in Florida are played evenings instead of on Saturday afternoons, as they do in many of the northern states, it's due to the heat. Moving the game times is giving in to the thugs. You don't give in, you stop the thugs. Whatever it takes to stop the thugs you do it, period.

For the North, games are played on Saturdays, not to due to heat, but the cold. Nobody wants to sit in a freezing cold stadium in October, better to see sit in a chilly Saturday morning/afternoon with the Sun out than the bitter cold of a Friday Night. Additionally, college football really isn't something Northeasterners get too excited for (no teams to really cheer for).

As for the thugs, no you don't give in to the thugs, but you don't make the thugs jump easier. Keeping the games at 7:00 at night, makes it easier for them to gather at 10pm and cause mischief after the game. Whether we are talking the incident in Palm Beach or Duval, the common thread has been these events are happening after the game, not during. Police can make the game as safe you want during the game (wanding, metal detectors, dog searches), but ultimately there are limits on what they can do outside of the Stadium. 

CHSFan, that is a non-answer, they need to do more isn't an answer, it is a half-hearted attempt to criticize the current plan with offering no real solution. Duval already wands everyone who enters. They have a large security force at big games like Raines-Lee. Fans are separated in terms of concessions for the most part.

These are not schools with campuses the size of Columbia, Suwannee, or even Madison (who could if they wanted) have separate entrances for visiting and home fans. Other than First Coast and Atlantic Coast (which has a stadium in an awkward place for separation), none of the Jacksonville schools can really separate fans. 

---------------------

Side note: Lee vs Westside is the first announced game to be moved to Saturday.

https://twitter.com/StuartASJax/status/1034250545580711938

[badbird]

Let me know how many people show up to those Saturday morning games.  The shooting will just happen outside a movie theater now on a Friday night and not the stadium

[Brendan Johnson]

On 8/27/2018 at 4:39 PM, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Can someone please explain to me what moving game times will accomplish if you don't have better police presence outside the stadiums

 

This is just a diversion attempt to avoid putting more resources into law enforcement presence being increased at and around public events

 

When will these decision makers realize that moving a few kickoff times Does nothing to fix the issues

 

 

Exactly what I’ve been saying. Crime and violence can be committed during the day as well. That’s just how it is. Only good Security is what will prevent it in and out of the stadium.