Florida Classification Discussion & an Idea

[Pipe Dreams]

I see that the FHSAA wants to fix a system that is not broken; the large classification playoffs. 

The idea of taking the previous two-year results for all programs and lumping them together into "Division 1" etc., is a horrid idea that will lead to 1) massive transfers to D1 programs; and 2) bad programs going 9-1 while elite programs go 5-5 because "it was unfair". This also does not simulate a real world environment of meritocracy. 

That said, the change introducing seeding was much needed and, in my opinion, made the Florida playoff system extremely interesting from a match-up perspective in the top three classifications. Last year, the 8A north playoffs were amazing (not just because we won). 

My question/idea is, has anybody considered COMBINING 1A & 2A, and COMBINING 3A & 4A, and adding one round to the playoffs for those classifications? (Edit: Remove the round 1 bye)

This would result in 32 teams making the playoffs for each of the new classes. It would ALSO increase the number of teams in each region, reducing the amount of travel needed because there are a higher number of potential opponents within an x mile radius (don't argue with me on this... it's a brute fact). 

EDIT: There could also be a rural classification consisting of 1A, 2A and 3A teams that meet the definition of “rural” per the FHSAA. This class would have a wider enrollment range but would 1) cut on travel costs and 2) cut down on the number of teams in the new combined 1-2A and 3-4A classifications.

Anyway, the resulting classes would be:

• 1A & 2A = the new 1A
• 3A & 4A = the new 2A
• Existing 5A = the new 3A
• Existing 6A = the new 4A
• Existing 7A = the new 5A
• Existing 8A = the new 6A
• New Class = Rural 1A-3A Schools

[SPCjessica2004]

1A is sort of a beast on its own. Also, starting this year (2018) 1A-4A have added the extra round to the playoffs that the bigger classifications have played. The top two teams in each region in 1A-4A have a round 1 bye in the playoffs.

As far as combining classifications- you will get a lot of resistance from the teams in 2A if you throw in 1A classes. 2A-8A are based on enrollment numbers, but 1A is based on being listed as a rural school and their enrollment can go into the upper 500's and lower 600's.  2A and 3A could be combined without any issues as a lot of those teams play each other already. 

[s1nglewing]

The current rural 1A came about because of the real or imagined perception of advantage that urban 2A & 3A schools have. If FHSAA follows your suggestions there will be no, or just a very few, current 1A teams playing in the state series. They'll go independent and have their own conference champion, as was threatened several years ago - which happens to have brought about the current rural/urban classification system for small schools.

[OldSchoolLion]

8 hours ago, Pipe Dreams said:

I see that the FHSAA wants to fix a system that is not broken; the large classification playoffs. 

The idea of taking the previous two-year results for all programs and lumping them together into "Division 1" etc., is a horrid idea that will lead to 1) massive transfers to D1 programs; and 2) bad programs going 9-1 while elite programs go 5-5 because "it was unfair". This also does not simulate a real world environment of meritocracy. 

That said, the change introducing seeding was much needed and, in my opinion, made the Florida playoff system extremely interesting from a match-up perspective in the top three classifications. Last year, the 8A north playoffs were amazing (not just because we won). 

My question/idea is, has anybody considered COMBINING 1A & 2A, and COMBINING 3A & 4A, and adding one round to the playoffs for those classifications?

This would result in 32 teams making the playoffs for each of the new classes. It would ALSO increase the number of teams in each region, reducing the amount of travel needed because there are a higher number of potential opponents within an x mile radius (don't argue with me on this... it's a brute fact). 

Anyway, the resulting classes would be:

• 1A & 2A = the new 1A
• 3A & 4A = the new 2A
• Existing 5A = the new 3A
• Existing 6A = the new 4A
• Existing 7A = the new 5A
• Existing 8A = the new 6A

...there are only a handful of public teams in 3A and 2A-see below.  One could combine all of the private schools currently in 2A and 3A into one class of 73 teams.  That might actually make some folks happy.  

A number of the schools below and about half of the teams in 4A are rural.  If one took all of these rural 1A-4A teams, one could create a class of about 65 teams.  That would leave us with about 20 "urban" 4A teams that could potentially be moved up to 5A.  Some of those "urban" 4A teams are quite good, ie Raines, Cocoa, Glades Central, University School, etc,

The net would be a reduction of 2 classes...just a possibility.

3A

Baldwin-R1

Florida High-R1

Fort White-R1

Newberry-R1

Taylor County-R1

Taylor(Pierson)-R2

Marathon - R4

2A

FAMU-R1

Moore Haven-R4

[gatorman-uf]

Current Proposal by the FHSAA is not for football and does not affect 1A.

But no, 1A sports have been a success (look at the attendance in comparison to 2A, 3A, and even 4A). Look at the parity of the league:

In 7 years of football for 1A, you have had 10 different teams in the finals with 6 different winners. (#=runner-up, *=state champion)

1. Baker #
2. Blountstown ##
3. Chipley #
4. Hamilton County #
5. Jefferson County *
6. Madison County *
7. Northview *
8. Pahokee *
9. Port St. Joe # *
10. Trenton # * *

In 7 years of boys basketball for 1A, 9 different teams make the final 2 and 5 different champions(#=runner-up, *=state champion)

1. Blountstown#
2. Chipley***
3. Hamilton County#
4. Hawthorne##
5. Holmes County*
6. Malone*
7. Paxton #
8. West Gadsden#*
9. Wildwood#*

In 7 years of boys basketball for 1A, 10 different teams make the final 2 and 5 different champions(#=runner-up, *=state champion)

1. Blountstown#
2. Chiefland##
3. Chipley#
4. Holmes County#
5. Lafayette*
6. Madison County##
7. Port St. Joe*
8. Trenton**
9. Union County*
10. Williston**

 

As for how to do consolidation for football...

1. Leave 1A alone
2. Take 256 largest teams, combine them into 1 classification, 32 districts, 8 teams in each district. The reality is that size does not make as much of a difference once we are above a certain number at the average public school.
3. Take the top 3 teams from each district (based on district record), rank them by size of school, put the largest 32 in one divisional playoff, the next 32 in one divisional playoff, and the smallest 32 in the the last divisional playoff. Divide by regions, rank by playoff points, no home games for district title, 
4. Divide the remaining teams into 3 divisions of about 70 teams, use playoff formula and regions like they do now.
5. Football would shrink down one classification

 

[gatorman-uf]

2 hours ago, OldSchoolLion said:

...there are only a handful of public teams in 3A and 2A-see below.  One could combine all of the private schools currently in 2A and 3A into one class of 73 teams.  That might actually make some folks happy.  

A number of the schools below and about half of the teams in 4A are rural.  If one took all of these rural 1A-4A teams, one could create a class of about 65 teams.  That would leave us with about 20 "urban" 4A teams that could potentially be moved up to 5A.  Some of those "urban" 4A teams are quite good, ie Raines, Cocoa, Glades Central, University School, etc,

The net would be a reduction of 2 classes...just a possibility.

3A

Baldwin-R1

Florida High-R1

Fort White-R1

Newberry-R1

Taylor County-R1

Taylor(Pierson)-R2

Marathon - R4

2A

FAMU-R1

Moore Haven-R4

The problem is that rural schools already moan about a team being just 5 over that 600 number. You can forget about it if they are even more than that. Additionally, rural schools would balk at either Florida High or FAMU being considered public schools (they are), but you would have hard time convincing the rural schools of that (same goes for PK Yonge). Additionally, the rural classification to my knowledge does not have to be only public schools. If there is a rural private school, they do have the option of joining 1A, Glades Day and Rocky Bayou Christian come to mind.

[Pipe Dreams]

In addition my original proposal...

Maybe add a 7th class... a rural classification consisting of 1A to 3A teams that meet the rural definition....... adding 4A for the rural class would be taking it too far with the powers that be there.

-

My original point — the Division 1, 2, 3, etc. idea will not be good for Florida HS football. If anything we need to combine some of the smaller classes (1-2A, 3-4A) and maybe add a separate rural class that has a wide enrollment range.

[OldSchoolLion]

9 hours ago, gatorman-uf said:

The problem is that rural schools already moan about a team being just 5 over that 600 number. You can forget about it if they are even more than that. Additionally, rural schools would balk at either Florida High or FAMU being considered public schools (they are), but you would have hard time convincing the rural schools of that (same goes for PK Yonge). Additionally, the rural classification to my knowledge does not have to be only public schools. If there is a rural private school, they do have the option of joining 1A, Glades Day and Rocky Bayou Christian come to mind.

I understand what you are saying. What strikes me is odd is that some of those 1A schools don't seem to have an issue playing larger schools during the regular season.  For example, this season, Port St Joe is playing 4A Marianna, Rutherford, Walton, and S Walton, and 5A Bay and Arnold.  And some of these 1A teams do quite well against the larger schools. 

Today, I cannot think of a rural school in 2A-4A that would dominate the 1A class if they were in it.        

[s1nglewing]

2 hours ago, OldSchoolLion said:

I understand what you are saying. What strikes me is odd is that some of those 1A schools don't seem to have an issue playing larger schools during the regular season.  For example, this season, Port St Joe is playing 4A Marianna, Rutherford, Walton, and S Walton, and 5A Bay and Arnold.  And some of these 1A teams do quite well against the larger schools. 

Today, I cannot think of a rural school in 2A-4A that would dominate the 1A class if they were in it.        

PSJ's coach knew they were going to have equivalent depth and athleticism to play with the teams he scheduled,  Marianna, Rutherford, Arnold, and Bay are not very good, and Walton is downright bad this season. 

Madison County is doing quite well as a 4A playing in 1A.

;-)

Rocky Bayou, Munroe, Aucilla, etc that are rural 2A that could play in 1A won't because they simply don't have the enrollment to compete in 1A. Munroe had 80 kids in HS as of the 2017 population report. 

[OldSchoolLion]

1 minute ago, s1nglewing said:

PSJ's coach knew they were going to have equivalent depth and athleticism to play with the teams he scheduled,  Marianna, Rutherford, Arnold, and Bay are not very good, and Walton is downright bad this season. 

Madison County is doing quite well as a 4A playing in 1A.

;-)

Rocky Bayou, Munroe, Aucilla, etc that are rural 2A that could play in 1A won't because they simply don't have the enrollment to compete in 1A. Munroe had 80 kids in HS as of the 2017 population report. 

How many rural 2A, 3A and 4A schools are very good?  Does the argument that rural 1A schools cannot compete with them hold water?

[Hwy17]

Just now, OldSchoolLion said:

How many rural 2A, 3A and 4A schools are very good?  Does the argument that rural 1A schools cannot compete with them hold water?

A 1A school playing larger class teams in the regular season is one thing, but I don't feel its right for them to have to go through larger schools in the playoffs.  

[s1nglewing]

When you have schools with an enrollment of 167 (Graceville) facing, weekly, teams with enrollments of 1000 that's just dangerous to the point of being nonsensical.

[OldSchoolLion]

18 minutes ago, s1nglewing said:

When you have schools with an enrollment of 167 (Graceville) facing, weekly, teams with enrollments of 1000 that's just dangerous to the point of being nonsensical.

Agreed.  I have more of an issue with the "additional" classes amongst the larger classes.

[Hwy17]

15 hours ago, OldSchoolLion said:

...there are only a handful of public teams in 3A and 2A-see below.  One could combine all of the private schools currently in 2A and 3A into one class of 73 teams.  That might actually make some folks happy.  

A number of the schools below and about half of the teams in 4A are rural.  If one took all of these rural 1A-4A teams, one could create a class of about 65 teams.  That would leave us with about 20 "urban" 4A teams that could potentially be moved up to 5A.  Some of those "urban" 4A teams are quite good, ie Raines, Cocoa, Glades Central, University School, etc,

The net would be a reduction of 2 classes...just a possibility.

3A

Baldwin-R1

Florida High-R1

Fort White-R1

Newberry-R1

Taylor County-R1

Taylor(Pierson)-R2

Marathon - R4

2A

FAMU-R1

Moore Haven-R4

Why is Moore Haven 2A and not 1A?

[OldSchoolLion]

18 hours ago, gatorman-uf said:

As for how to do consolidation for football...

1. Leave 1A alone
2. Take 256 largest teams, combine them into 1 classification, 32 districts, 8 teams in each district. The reality is that size does not make as much of a difference once we are above a certain number at the average public school.
3. Take the top 3 teams from each district (based on district record), rank them by size of school, put the largest 32 in one divisional playoff, the next 32 in one divisional playoff, and the smallest 32 in the the last divisional playoff. Divide by regions, rank by playoff points, no home games for district title, 
4. Divide the remaining teams into 3 divisions of about 70 teams, use playoff formula and regions like they do now.
5. Football would shrink down one classification

 

It would be nice to have some data to demonstrate this to any doubters.  In other words, get rosters sizes of all varsity teams and compare roster sizes of 8A schools with 5A and 6A schools.

[s1nglewing]

It's not the number of players on a roster, but the number of quality athletes on the roster that counts. Walton  HS has 108 players on their roster (per Maxpreps), while Apopka lists 94.  Using roster size logic, were the two teams to play it should be an even contest, but in reality, Apopka would win by as much as they wanted to and probably more. 

[Sharkbait]

The issue for 1A schools is although some can compete with and even dominate some 4A competition Marianna or the Walton schools they would be 60 point underdogs to BTW or Cocoa. 1A has the same handful of teams in the hunt every year and that doesn't look to change anytime soon.  

[OldSchoolLion]

1 hour ago, s1nglewing said:

It's not the number of players on a roster, but the number of quality athletes on the roster that counts. Walton  HS has 108 players on their roster (per Maxpreps), while Apopka lists 94.  Using roster size logic, were the two teams to play it should be an even contest, but in reality, Apopka would win by as much as they wanted to and probably more. 

Totally on board with you.  Am sure you'll agree that measuring "quality athletes" gets very subjective.  My previous point was....if one could show that most 8A rosters do not necessarily dwarf those of 5A and 6A schools, it takes away from the argument that some might have that 8A schools have a substantial advantage because of their student population size.

[Joshua Wilson]

Let me stop you all here...

Football IS NOT a part of this plan!!!!! 

Read this several times. 

All other major team sports are a part of this... just not football!