4A Scheduling - Who Are These Teams Playing?

[OldSchoolLion]

I randomly selected 5 teams from each region and counted how many 4A teams they scheduled this year.  The majority of the 20 teams below scheduled the majority of their games against schools from the lower classes, ie 1A-4A.  4 of them "scheduled up" and played most of their games against schools from the upper classes...Cocoa, Dunnellon, Raines, and Booker T Washington.  

With the current arrangement, the potential exists for a substantial number of teams with losing records to make the playoffs, especially if they schedule aggressively.   Does it seem odd to have a classification in which some teams are playing few, if any, teams from the same class during the year?   If Raines is already playing all of their games against upper classes and doing well, do they even belong in 4A?  Am not implying they don't.  Just asking for opinions.

 

Region 1

Rutherford-5

Marianna-4

West Nassau-3

Jackson-2

Raines-0

 

Region 2

Bradford-4

Mount Dora-4

South Sumter-3

Santa Fe-1

Dunnellon-1

 

Region 3

Lake Placid-3

Avon Park-3

Labelle-3

Cocoa-2

Astronaut-2

 

Region 4

Key West-4

Gulliver Prep-3

Monsignor Pace-1

Coral Springs Charter-1

Booker T Washington-1

[smashmouth80]

This is what I keep posting about with St. Joseph in 3A. Their schedule is completely 2A and Independent teams and they are going to receive a first round bye. Seems unfair when they are not playing the same competition as the other teams in that region. 

[Hwy17]

Sounds to me like this is a failed experiment.  Need to combine 1A & 2A  into a class and 3A & 4A into a class and go back to districts.  

[DisabledAccount]

5 minutes ago, Hwy17 said:

Sounds to me like this is a failed experiment.  Need to combine 1A & 2A  into a class and 3A & 4A into a class and go back to districts.  

They aren't going to touch 1a it seems

 

The best and only way to fix 1a is go to 2 regions instead of 4

 

That could probably help in 2-4a as well 

[Hwy17]

4 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

They aren't going to touch 1a it seems

 

The best and only way to fix 1a is go to 2 regions instead of 4

 

That could probably help in 2-4a as well 

What's the real difference between 1A and 2A any ways?  The population range overlaps. 1A is all public and 2A is nearly all private.  Was the goal to seperate public from private?  Why are Taylor County and  Moor Haven, public schools, in 2A and not 1A?

[DisabledAccount]

5 minutes ago, Hwy17 said:

What's the real difference between 1A and 2A any ways?  The population range overlaps. 1A is all public and 2A is nearly all private.  Was the goal to seperate public from private?  Why are Taylor County and  Moor Haven, public schools, in 2A and not 1A?

Taylor County is 3a and they should be 1a

 

No idea why Moore Haven is 2a

 

 

And to answer yes it was because the 1a schools wanted a rural classification the problem is there isn't enough schools so they need to either increase the cutoff or they need to turn 4 regions into 2

 

The point is though if they refused to touch 1a when doing this new classification proposal for the other team sports why would they touch 1a in football?

[Hwy17]

6 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Taylor County is 3a and they should be 1a

 

No idea why Moore Haven is 2a

 

 

And to answer yes it was because the 1a schools wanted a rural classification the problem is there isn't enough schools so they need to either increase the cutoff or they need to turn 4 regions into 2

 

The point is though if they refused to touch 1a when doing this new classification proposal for the other team sports why would they touch 1a in football?

You can't get any more rural than Moore Haven.  Its out there all by its self.  Pretty good program for a small school. 

Didn't know Taylor went to 3A.  Are they they only public in 3A?  

Here's another question - why have so many small private schools choice to join the independent ranks and form conferences like SSAC? What caused the split that they don't want to play in FHSAA?

 

 

 

[DisabledAccount]

5 minutes ago, Hwy17 said:

You can't get any more rural than Moore Haven.  Its out there all by its self.  Pretty good program for a small school. 

Didn't know Taylor went to 3A.  Are they they only public in 3A?  

Here's another question - why have so many small private schools choice to join the independent ranks and form conferences like SSAC? What caused the split that they don't want to play in FHSAA?

 

 

 

Believe me you preaching to the choir here,  i agree they should be 1a, they are in the population range last i checked so it's crazy they not

 

........

 

Florida High, Fort White, Newberry and Baldwin are also publics

 

 

.......

 

 

Because so many of those schools didn't want to face the elite privates like Trinity Christian, Trinity Catholic, Bolles,  University Christian, Tampa Catholic, etc..

 

They went independent because they knew they couldn't compete in a district with those teams and that's why so many came back when 1-4a weren't required to play those teams so they could play whoever they want and hopefully get in playoffs and completely avoid those teams

[DisabledAccount]

1 hour ago, smashmouth80 said:

This is what I keep posting about with St. Joseph in 3A. Their schedule is completely 2A and Independent teams and they are going to receive a first round bye. Seems unfair when they are not playing the same competition as the other teams in that region. 

Well we will know how overrated they are in second round when they have to play a good team 

[Hwy17]

31 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Believe me you preaching to the choir here,  i agree they should be 1a, they are in the population range last i checked so it's crazy they not

 

........

 

Florida High, Fort White, Newberry and Baldwin are also publics

 

 

.......

 

 

Because so many of those schools didn't want to face the elite privates like Trinity Christian, Trinity Catholic, Bolles,  University Christian, Tampa Catholic, etc..

 

They went independent because they knew they couldn't compete in a district with those teams and that's why so many came back when 1-4a weren't required to play those teams so they could play whoever they want and hopefully get in playoffs and completely avoid those teams

Trying to understand the situation.  I do sympathize with small schools and understand the concern that there was a big gap between schools in population which was why they split the smaller classes back in the early 2000s. We had 1a and 1b and 2a and 2b.  The whole rural vs urban didn't make sense to me.  With the population range overlap with 1a and 2a, I don't understand why that class isn't combined unless it was to separate public and private.  I still thought 3a was all private.

Give you a history lesson - From 1975 to 1986, Hardee mostly played as an independent, 1983 was the exception.  The real reason was due to migrant farm labor kids who came during the fall which is harvest season for citrus farms.  They are here, then leave come spring.  As a result, our population numbers were inflated.  Likewise, because they up and leave with no notice, those kids get classified as "drop outs" which is why Hardee always had the highest drop out rate in Florida.  FHSAA said we had to count these in our numbers which forced us into 3a.  We argued that we should have an exception and be 2a because this was a false inflation to our true population. There were only 4 classes back then in case you didn't know.  FHSAA wouldn't make any exception for us.  We even asked back then the classes be split.  No can do said FHSAA.  There were some other schools in our same situation; DeSoto, Okeechobee, Avon Park, etc.  Same thing, count them and play up, no exceptions.  Hardee had about 800-900 students counting them.  Subtract and we really only had about 500-600.  So our choice was play in 3a, against schools that had double our population, namely Bartow, Lake Wales, Winter Haven, who were all powerhouses, or go independent.  So we choice independent.  During that time period we had a winning season each year, 2 undefeated regular seasons, and won games over other 2a schools that were in the playoffs including one that made two state finals appearances with one title.  Our critics said we didn't play anybody back then. 

 

[SPCjessica2004]

2 hours ago, Hwy17 said:

Sounds to me like this is a failed experiment.  Need to combine 1A & 2A  into a class and 3A & 4A into a class and go back to districts.  

You can't combine 1A and 2A. 1A is rural. 2A is mostly private schools.   You need to combine 2A and 3A. You do this by lowering the 3A cap from 680 to 630. This expands the new 3a, gives the new 2A more teams and the new 3A more teams.

 

[Hwy17]

6 minutes ago, SPCjessica2004 said:

You can't combine 1A and 2A. 1A is rural. 2A is mostly private schools.   You need to combine 2A and 3A. You do this by lowering the 3A cap from 680 to 630. This expands the new 3a, gives the new 2A more teams and the new 3A more teams.

 

We need Jessica on the FHSAA board!

[SPCjessica2004]

Just now, Hwy17 said:

We need Jessica on the FHSAA board!

I've brought this up with Mr. Beasley before; however, there's no interest in lowering the football classifications. While the fans of high school football want to cut classifications, for the most part, the schools themselves do not. We're stuck with 8 classifications in football and will be for the forseeable future.


 

[Jambun82]

7 hours ago, Hwy17 said:

We need Jessica on the FHSAA board!

Yes, I agree, and we also need to envy Jessica's husband, and hope that he realizes what are truly lucky man he is! Jessica has always been a treasure and a great source of knowledge and wisdom. I only wish that she gave more thoughts and opinions on subjects beyond 3A.

[blystr2002]

Some of you are looking at from outside or fan of overall product of FHSAA as a whole. Try looking form individual schools point of view. Some don't have the money to compete or travel.  Also, some know they aren't state championship material or sending kids other D3 here or there to college.  However, they still have kids that love football and just want to be apart of a team and compete against similar schools.  Looking at it from the outside would take that away from them.  These kids have 4 years left until they are adults and will never play a sport again in most cases. Getting blown out every week and money is why many went independent. It is also why the FHSAA set it up this way now, so these schools can come back to Fhsaa and still have their "conferences."

[SPCjessica2004]

49 minutes ago, blystr2002 said:

Some of you are looking at from outside or fan of overall product of FHSAA as a whole. Try looking form individual schools point of view. Some don't have the money to compete or travel.  Also, some know they aren't state championship material or sending kids other D3 here or there to college.  However, they still have kids that love football and just want to be apart of a team and compete against similar schools.  Looking at it from the outside would take that away from them.  These kids have 4 years left until they are adults and will never play a sport again in most cases. Getting blown out every week and money is why many went independent. It is also why the FHSAA set it up this way now, so these schools can come back to Fhsaa and still have their "conferences."

This is a great, great post and I couldn't give you a big enough thumbs up for writing it. 

On message boards and social medial we often talk about weekly rankings or national rankings, or how many D-1 prospects a team has. We often make respectful and heated arguments on why team A has already won a state championship before a season has begun so why have the season since the other teams are simply wasting their time.

The reality is, there are far more schools simply trying to figure out how to field a football team, let alone have a winning season.  We start to treat high school football like college football and when we do that we lose sight of the fact these are 12-18 year olds for the most part, not 19-24 year olds.  I'm COMPLETELY guilty of this, so I'll raise my hand (so will my husband and brother!).

Overall, it's a very interesting talking point going forward. 
 

[OldSchoolLion]

1 hour ago, blystr2002 said:

Some of you are looking at from outside or fan of overall product of FHSAA as a whole. Try looking form individual schools point of view. Some don't have the money to compete or travel.  Also, some know they aren't state championship material or sending kids other D3 here or there to college.  However, they still have kids that love football and just want to be apart of a team and compete against similar schools.  Looking at it from the outside would take that away from them.  These kids have 4 years left until they are adults and will never play a sport again in most cases. Getting blown out every week and money is why many went independent. It is also why the FHSAA set it up this way now, so these schools can come back to Fhsaa and still have their "conferences."

Great points.  It all comes down to one word...compromise, or lack of it...at many levels.  We are all guilty at times of trying to do too much and make too many people happy in our lives, aren't we?  And what is often the result?

Today's challenges/debates have existed for decades...public versus private, rural vs metro, excessive travel,  inadequate funding, etc etc.  What's different today is the approach used to deal with the challenges, ie workarounds, and the level of expectations of the stakeholders. 

I totally "get" the whole issue of teams being blown out every week and have posted about the challenges of newer schools.  At the same time, however, I think there are a lot of players, parents and fans who are simply not realistic about what it takes to have a winning team and the level of sacrifice sometimes needed.

Today I hear an inordinate  amount of complaining about things and a lack willingness to make sacrifices to address shortcomings.  How about doing without that new TV screen that is bigger than my car and giving it to your son's football team?  "Oh heavens no, we absolutely can't do without that."  How about getting a job, son, to pay for new weight training equipment you claim is holding your team back from competing against the rich private school.  "Oh heavens no, I don't have time and it would negatively affect my studies.  And I'm in public school, so that should be provided to me"   ...or the parent who thinks his son is going to be scarred for life if his team never makes the playoffs in high school and/or occasionally loses 56-0.  

Sure we want to address glaring inequities related to parity in the "system."  But if we try to make everyone happy and nobody is willing to compromise their position, we will end up with a cluster.  History teaches us that.  I've posted some things about rivalries this season and some of the stories are incredible.  Teams that were beaten for many years, in many cases very badly.  But they hung in there and sucked it up until they could turn the tables..instead of running away from the "problem."  We cannot expect the "system" to fix everything.  Sometimes we need to look at ourselves and ask "What can i do?" ...or do without for the greater good.  

 

 

 

 

 

[blystr2002]

For every school, it is not as simple as putting money in or giving up.  Some schools whether because of academic standards, demographics, location will never turn it around by standards of some people on here. It is about the kids having fun and competing for them.  I have been at schools that were public whole time and been to playoffs. I have also been at a school who was blown out by 50 every week no matter who the coach was.  They went independent. Guess what? The kids playing and student body were happy going 5-5 to 8-2 every year. Numbers of players on roster went from 20 players to 40s and a large JV squad. They did not care who the name of the other team was or that they couldn't win a state title. They were competing against equal schools. Losing by 50 won'r ruin a kid. Losing by 50 every game every year is embarrassing for them. The switched back to FHSAA and above 4A, so have districts and now are back to losing by 50 and had to cancel the Jv season. Varsity back in the 20s.   Both sides did compromise for 1A-4A and it is better.  The smaller schools who have a harder time turning it around came back to the FHSAA. The FHSAA agreed to get rid of districts, so they could schedule their own opponents. That was the compromise. Not perfect, but better.  As far as the point system, nothing will be perfect. It is impossible. This is getting it right for the most part though. A good team might get left out here or there.  Happens at every level in every sport.

[Hwy17]

2 hours ago, blystr2002 said:

Some of you are looking at from outside or fan of overall product of FHSAA as a whole. Try looking form individual schools point of view. Some don't have the money to compete or travel.  Also, some know they aren't state championship material or sending kids other D3 here or there to college.  However, they still have kids that love football and just want to be apart of a team and compete against similar schools.  Looking at it from the outside would take that away from them.  These kids have 4 years left until they are adults and will never play a sport again in most cases. Getting blown out every week and money is why many went independent. It is also why the FHSAA set it up this way now, so these schools can come back to Fhsaa and still have their "conferences."

Which I why I applaud them for doing so. Best to go their own way because FHSAA, sadly enough, becomes somewhat bureaucratic. 

It gets me though on what is exactly fair for the small powerhouse schools like Madison and Pahokee.  Time and again I've seen 1a powerhouses go and beat teams that are much larger than them.  That said, I don't think they should have to play in a class with schools much larger than them.  The weekly grind wouldn't be fair.  Also what goes up, sooner or later comes back down.  Small towns like these tend to go in cycles.  Fort Meade, Frostproof and Clewiston are good examples of former powerhouses that are struggling right now.  The real issue is the uneven population growth in Florida.  Small towns like these are becoming more and more isolated and fewer in number.  

[Hwy17]

15 minutes ago, blystr2002 said:

For every school, it is not as simple as putting money in or giving up.  Some schools whether because of academic standards, demographics, location will never turn it around by standards of some people on here. It is about the kids having fun and competing for them.  I have been at schools that were public whole time and been to playoffs. I have also been at a school who was blown out by 50 every week no matter who the coach was.  They went independent. Guess what? The kids playing and student body were happy going 5-5 to 8-2 every year. Numbers of players on roster went from 20 players to 40s and a large JV squad. They did not care who the name of the other team was or that they couldn't win a state title. They were competing against equal schools. Losing by 50 won'r ruin a kid. Losing by 50 every game every year is embarrassing for them. The switched back to FHSAA and above 4A, so have districts and now are back to losing by 50 and had to cancel the Jv season. Varsity back in the 20s.   Both sides did compromise for 1A-4A and it is better.  The smaller schools who have a harder time turning it around came back to the FHSAA. The FHSAA agreed to get rid of districts, so they could schedule their own opponents. That was the compromise. Not perfect, but better.  As far as the point system, nothing will be perfect. It is impossible. This is getting it right for the most part though. A good team might get left out here or there.  Happens at every level in every sport.

I know where you are coming from.  The little history lesson I gave above about Hardee , going independent served a purpose. The early 70's was a period of some really down seasons.  Going independent got the program back on track.  Staying independent I think hurt the program and its effects still remains.  1983 we played in a district.  We should have stayed in a district from that point on.  Instead they went back independent and it cost us.  

 

[blystr2002]

2 minutes ago, Hwy17 said:

I know where you are coming from.  The little history lesson I gave above about Hardee , going independent served a purpose. The early 70's was a period of some really down seasons.  Going independent got the program back on track.  Staying independent I think hurt the program and its effects still remains.  1983 we played in a district.  We should have stayed in a district from that point on.  Instead they went back independent and it cost us.  

 

I don't know enough about that school, so hurt in which way.  If kids are enjoying themselves and are proud walking the halls being independent then it isn't a problem to me. Only people that care are outsiders in many cases that don't really care what the kids think.

I will say though that if you are independent then you should be in a conference.  That way you can over time have the experience of playoffs and rivalries even if not for a state championship.  That is better for a program then just being independent and picking random schools every year.

[Hwy17]

8 minutes ago, blystr2002 said:

I don't know enough about that school, so hurt in which way.  If kids are enjoying themselves and are proud walking the halls being independent then it isn't a problem to me. Only people that care are outsiders in many cases that don't really care what the kids think.

I will say though that if you are independent then you should be in a conference.  That way you can over time have the experience of playoffs and rivalries even if not for a state championship.  That is better for a program then just being independent and picking random schools every year.

Hurt because we played and beat teams who made the playoffs, some have state championships to show for it.  Hurt, because it created a big fish in small pond mentality that still persists with some.  Going independent served a purpose.  Staying independent for far too long was the problem.