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181pl

FHSAA Playoff system is very flawed

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10 minutes ago, 181pl said:

Travel was better under the old system. Up or down the bracket depending on the year. Much easier.

 

Under what I proposed, we would seed based on points but qualify for the playoffs based on districts alone.

 

 

It wasn't easy it was pathetic and basic

 

That old system looked like something a 5 year old drew up on a playground 

 

It could use some spicing up 

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10 minutes ago, 181pl said:

The new system sucks and defenders of the new system are drone sheeps to some unknown power.

 

It's an easy fix. Just need to get the right people's attention.

I ain't a sheep, boyscout

 

I was sick of a system that was so boring and stupid that anything different would be significantly more interesting

 

First off the lack of seeding was the true definition of participation trophies 

 

Second the refusal to acknowledge some districts don't deserve 2 teams while others deserve 3 or 4 shows how out of date some people tend to think 

 

And lastly people complain about the regular season being watered down yet the regular season means more now than before because with that system only a select few games each year counted and the rest were throwaway games 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

It wasn't easy it was pathetic and basic

That old system looked like something a 5 year old drew up on a playground 

It could use some spicing up 

Spicing up? Is that why we needed to change a system that worked, if so that is weak sauce. I mean completely weak. Because you didn't like traveling to Tallahassee one year. Please, get over yourself. The system was fair and equitable. District Runner-ups always on the road (unless against another District Runner-up). Northern half of the bracket hosts one year, Southern half of the bracket the next. It is called taking turns (you know that thing you learned on the playground) or are you so.... nevermind...

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3 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

I ain't a sheep, boyscout

I was sick of a system that was so boring and stupid that anything different would be significantly more interesting

First off the lack of seeding was the true definition of participation trophies 

Second the refusal to acknowledge some districts don't deserve 2 teams while others deserve 3 or 4 shows how out of date some people tend to think 

And lastly people complain about the regular season being watered down yet the regular season means more now than before because with that system only a select few games each year counted and the rest were throwaway games 

Sigh, nobody complained about the regular season being watered down, the games weren't throw away. Tell that to the kids who actually played the games and tell them their win against Bolles or Trinity or Vanguard or Gainesville is a throwaway. The only people who thought the games were throw away were people like you and that is damn insulting to the coaches, players, parents, and fans who attended those games. 

Again, you are complaining about 2 and 3/4 team districts, show me ANYONE who actually defends those. Seriously, show me where anybody on these boards thought a 2/3/4 team districts were good (other than the teams that benefited) for the sport  and will be pay for your damn ticket to Orlando. 

The reality is that was a simple fix, reduce classifications, increase 2A and 3A and 4A to 64 teams and spread the rest among 5A, 6A, 7A. Boom solved. I find it hysterical that you think Fletcher wouldn't have tried to beat Mandarin because they would be out of the playoffs. You are projecting what you feel onto hundreds of other schools who are going through different stages of their own programs. Please stop. Focus on your game. 

And when Josh and the FHSAA have to admit the system failed to do what they projected it would do (lousy teams in the playoffs) we expect an apology. 

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6 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

Sigh, nobody complained about the regular season being watered down, the games weren't throw away. Tell that to the kids who actually played the games and tell them their win against Bolles or Trinity or Vanguard or Gainesville is a throwaway. The only people who thought the games were throw away were people like you and that is damn insulting to the coaches, players, parents, and fans who attended those games. 

Again, you are complaining about 2 and 3/4 team districts, show me ANYONE who actually defends those. Seriously, show me where anybody on these boards thought a 2/3/4 team districts were good (other than the teams that benefited) for the sport  and will be pay for your damn ticket to Orlando. 

The reality is that was a simple fix, reduce classifications, increase 2A and 3A and 4A to 64 teams and spread the rest among 5A, 6A, 7A. Boom solved. I find it hysterical that you think Fletcher wouldn't have tried to beat Mandarin because they would be out of the playoffs. You are projecting what you feel onto hundreds of other schools who are going through different stages of their own programs. Please stop. Focus on your game. 

And when Josh and the FHSAA have to admit the system failed to do what they projected it would do (lousy teams in the playoffs) we expect an apology. 

I never treated them like a throwaway but the moment i hear "those games have no impact on playoffs" that makes it a throwaway 

 

If a game has no impact on the season besides how pretty a teams record is it is a throwaway 

 

Only way for those games to hold value is make them important in the playoff chase,  i hate losing in any game but i rather have a loss or 2 affect our seeding and know that our wins can affect someone else's because ik more times than not we win that battle 

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20 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

Spicing up? Is that why we needed to change a system that worked, if so that is weak sauce. I mean completely weak. Because you didn't like traveling to Tallahassee one year. Please, get over yourself. The system was fair and equitable. District Runner-ups always on the road (unless against another District Runner-up). Northern half of the bracket hosts one year, Southern half of the bracket the next. It is called taking turns (you know that thing you learned on the playground) or are you so.... nevermind...

Home field advantage should be earned not handed,  it's like this on every level of sports but i thought you would know that 

 

I would rather let the best overall record among district champs host then flip every year, at least then it's earned on the field instead of being handed to them 

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17 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

Sigh, nobody complained about the regular season being watered down, the games weren't throw away. Tell that to the kids who actually played the games and tell them their win against Bolles or Trinity or Vanguard or Gainesville is a throwaway. The only people who thought the games were throw away were people like you and that is damn insulting to the coaches, players, parents, and fans who attended those games. 

Again, you are complaining about 2 and 3/4 team districts, show me ANYONE who actually defends those. Seriously, show me where anybody on these boards thought a 2/3/4 team districts were good (other than the teams that benefited) for the sport  and will be pay for your damn ticket to Orlando. 

The reality is that was a simple fix, reduce classifications, increase 2A and 3A and 4A to 64 teams and spread the rest among 5A, 6A, 7A. Boom solved. I find it hysterical that you think Fletcher wouldn't have tried to beat Mandarin because they would be out of the playoffs. You are projecting what you feel onto hundreds of other schools who are going through different stages of their own programs. Please stop. Focus on your game. 

And when Josh and the FHSAA have to admit the system failed to do what they projected it would do (lousy teams in the playoffs) we expect an apology. 

If they did that we wouldn't see the issues in the current system we saw this year 

 

So yes i agree,  we need to lower the number of classifications 

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Columbia High Fan, there are some good points to the system and you are correct in some things.  Like all regular season games have postseason implication more, but to argue every point to be "better than it was." of switching host field not to be "fair."....makes it seem that you seem unwavering to discuss changes to the system and why many would to go back to ideas like "taking turns" because those things seem "reasonable."

A constant reference to "you would have gotten the same result (or worse) under the old system" is a red herring; it doesn't address the problem. POINT OF FACT: there is no logical reason a team who has won ZERO games should have a claim to the playoffs, when there are other teams who have won. THAT in and of itself proves that the system can be manipulated and SCHEDULING OVER MORE COMPETITIVE TEAMS or BETTER COMPETITION is a FLAW in the system.

Now it is my opinion that we do go to a points system to get better competition and all games relevant, But THIS AINT IT!  You will need to add more factors like point given up, points earned (again you can cap the points at certain point total OR (spread could be a possibility). NOW YES IF you are going to go to points system then you have to get rid of our "lets don't hurt the kids feelings by running up the score" or the "You have to play X number of teams in our school district" mentality and its overseers.  SO falling on THIS point system sword, WITHOUT ADDRESS THE OTHER ISSUES leads to the results we are getting and do nothing but hurt Kids who have a limited window to try and accomplish their football goals.

My CONTINUAL frustration, is that why do we have to re-invent the wheel?  There are several states who already have system; systems tested, tried and erred.  

 

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16 minutes ago, STILL KRUNK said:

Columbia High Fan, there are some good points to the system and you are correct in some things.  Like all regular season games have postseason implication more, but to argue every point to be "better than it was." of switching host field not to be "fair."....makes it seem that you seem unwavering to discuss changes to the system and why many would to go back to ideas like "taking turns" because those things seem "reasonable."

A constant reference to "you would have gotten the same result (or worse) under the old system" is a red herring; it doesn't address the problem. POINT OF FACT: there is no logical reason a team who has won ZERO games should have a claim to the playoffs, when there are other teams who have won. THAT in and of itself proves that the system can be manipulated and SCHEDULING OVER MORE COMPETITIVE TEAMS or BETTER COMPETITION is a FLAW in the system.

Now it is my opinion that we do go to a points system to get better competition and all games relevant, But THIS AINT IT!  You will need to add more factors like point given up, points earned (again you can cap the points at certain point total OR (spread could be a possibility). NOW YES IF you are going to go to points system then you have to get rid of our "lets don't hurt the kids feelings by running up the score" or the "You have to play X number of teams in our school district" mentality and its overseers.  SO falling on THIS point system sword, WITHOUT ADDRESS THE OTHER ISSUES leads to the results we are getting and do nothing but hurt Kids who have a limited window to try and accomplish their football goals.

My CONTINUAL frustration, is that why do we have to re-invent the wheel?  There are several states who already have system; systems tested, tried and erred.  

 

I'm one of the personal belief that home field needs to be earned and flipping every year is a example of it not being earned but instead being handed

 

I may come off as harsh of blunt but I'm just speaking with my honest feelings on it

 

This system is far from perfect but i think a few simple tweaks and it will be better than the old system as a whole could have ever been with the same changes

 

 

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29 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

I'm one of the personal belief that home field needs to be earned and flipping every year is a example of it not being earned but instead being handed

I may come off as harsh of blunt but I'm just speaking with my honest feelings on it

This system is far from perfect but i think a few simple tweaks and it will be better than the old system as a whole could have ever been with the same changes

 

 

1 hour ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

If they did that we wouldn't see the issues in the current system we saw this year 

So yes i agree,  we need to lower the number of classifications 

By you treating them like throwaways, they are throwaways, but to those fans they are never a throwaway. Yes, some games took on more meaning than others, but you play because you love the game. The goal of our playoff system is to find the best 32 teams from specific districts in certain classifications. The fact that a 2000 student beat up on a school with 500 students does not mean that the 2000 person school is better it just means that they beat up a school that has less students. The whole point of the old system was to find the best teams in a given classification, it had a very definite way of proving who got in. You beat the teams in your district. Simple. The whole point of the system is designed to get a classification, how they do against a different classification doesn't prove you are the best in a classification. 

Also, you are talking about minor tweaks, if those same tweaks would have fixed your whining about the old system than how is the new system better. Again, several of us saw these problems coming from a mile away and the the FHSAA and people like Josh told us to let it all play out, trust the process. They deserve the heat they are getting for this. They overreacted to BTW not making the playoffs. 

The old system worked because you have 400+ schools with 400+ different conditions. Some schools are not allowed to play out of county, some schools have a limit on far they are allowed to travel. Some schools end up in horrible districts and as a result end up with less points in games they are required to play. The old system was simple, and that was the beauty. It said, you win you are in. You come in 2nd you are in. Why is that a bad system? Did a 3rd place team occasionally get left out who was better than the the district champ/runner up. Sure, but life isn't fair. 

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On 11/8/2018 at 2:45 PM, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

What the hell does politics have a damn thing to do with playoff seeding?!!

 

Smh are people so desperate to pretend to have all the answers that logic goes out the window entirely? 

 

I can respect someone having a different opinion if they can back it up but how can you back it up when you can't even stay on topic 

Because it was not thought out just like Obamacare which was based on lies, written by some guy who knew nothing about the subject. That’s exactly how the point system feels like. It wasn’t thought out, nobody thought of the scams or milking the system that would happen and it was brought on too fast. They should have done their homework because there are way more better point systems other states use that actually works for everyone not just the urban area and private schools. When you have 20 schools in a 5 mile radius down in Miami no wonder everyone down there has tons of points. 

 

Eitherway do away with bonus points and quit awarding teams who lose, why award for losses? Just adjust the numbers downward and don’t award for loss. This will stop teams from milking the system. Quit giving out participation trophies which were started by liberals because  kids don’t learn a darn thing by doing that. And when I say participation trophies I mean points for losses. 

 

There was was nothing wrong with the previous system whatsoever, it worked fine. Some folks can’t stand when something worked fine, some joker always thinks they have a better sytem but they only used the same system used from another state. 

 

Last I’m curious how many ppl would love to see this on Florida’s ballot in two years? And before you say we can’t change it CHF remember FHSAA was created by a law so anything FHSAA enacts can be changed by the voters!!!! I’m really thinking of starting a website to get signatures for this  and to also force FHSAA to separate private vs public!!!! And it will show evidence why there’s needs to be a separation!!!! Once the public folks/parents see the truth about private schools I’m sure they will vote to separate them!!!!

 

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34 minutes ago, WhatsUpDoc said:

Because it was not thought out just like Obamacare which was based on lies, written by some guy who knew nothing about the subject. That’s exactly how the point system feels like. It wasn’t thought out, nobody thought of the scams or milking the system that would happen and it was brought on too fast. They should have done their homework because there are way more better point systems other states use that actually works for everyone not just the urban area and private schools. When you have 20 schools in a 5 mile radius down in Miami no wonder everyone down there has tons of points. 

 

Eitherway do away with bonus points and quit awarding teams who lose, why award for losses? Just adjust the numbers downward and don’t award for loss. This will stop teams from milking the system. Quit giving out participation trophies which were started by liberals because  kids don’t learn a darn thing by doing that. And when I say participation trophies I mean points for losses. 

 

There was was nothing wrong with the previous system whatsoever, it worked fine. Some folks can’t stand when something worked fine, some joker always thinks they have a better sytem but they only used the same system used from another state. 

 

Last I’m curious how many ppl would love to see this on Florida’s ballot in two years? And before you say we can’t change it CHF remember FHSAA was created by a law so anything FHSAA enacts can be changed by the voters!!!! I’m really thinking of starting a website to get signatures for this  and to also force FHSAA to separate private vs public!!!! And it will show evidence why there’s needs to be a separation!!!! Once the public folks/parents see the truth about private schools I’m sure they will vote to separate them!!!!

 

You keep saying participation trophies yet you think a runner up should be handed a playoff spot and that teams shouldn't have to earn the home field advantage? 

 

If you are so concerned with participation trophies then you should also be in favor of teams actually having to earn the right to seeding and earn home field advantage, not be "handed it" because of which side of the bracket they lie before the year begins,  that is the definition of not earning it 

And if a team can't win district they should have to earn way in playoffs, not just get in because they second best in a weak district when there are teams who finish 4th in a tough District that would beat that 2nd place team by 50 points while blindfolded 

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I have followed this site since it's inception. I am a former coach and AD. I finally had to join and give my two cents.

This is high school football. 99% of all people actually involved understand that someone else might be better than them. With ANY system, there are going to be "bubble teams" and exceptions. Without exception, the teams that truly deserve to be in playoffs will get in. Occasionally, there will be teams that get in that others deem "do not deserve it" based on there teams resumes. Good for them!

I do know this: THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT BELONGS ON A POLITICAL BALLOT.

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8 hours ago, CommomSense said:

I have followed this site since it's inception. I am a former coach and AD. I finally had to join and give my two cents.

This is high school football. 99% of all people actually involved understand that someone else might be better than them. With ANY system, there are going to be "bubble teams" and exceptions. Without exception, the teams that truly deserve to be in playoffs will get in. Occasionally, there will be teams that get in that others deem "do not deserve it" based on there teams resumes. Good for them!

I do know this: THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT BELONGS ON A POLITICAL BALLOT.

Thank you!

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Football folks tend to be control freaks. They want to "get it right", and they're convinced that they themselves are always right. It's why you see every other play in the college game stopped for review, even though 9 times out of 10 the conclusion to be drawn is "I can see it either way". And it's why everyone always bitches about how to run the postseason. Fact is, in most cases, there is no way to subjectively get it 100% correct, 100% of the time. Strength of schedule in high school football is much harder and much closer to impossible to evaluate then most care to admit. 

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6 minutes ago, skyway said:

Football folks tend to be control freaks. They want to "get it right", and they're convinced that they themselves are always right. It's why you see every other play in the college game stopped for review, even though 9 times out of 10 the conclusion to be drawn is "I can see it either way". And it's why everyone always bitches about how to run the postseason. Fact is, in most cases, there is no way to subjectively get it 100% correct, 100% of the time. Strength of schedule in high school football is much harder and much closer to impossible to evaluate then most care to admit. 

It didn't used to be that way, at least nowhere near to the same extent.  People just took the game, the playoffs, etc for what they were and accepted any inherent shortcomings...which kept the focus on the field where it belongs.  We're becoming paralyzed by perfection.      

 

 

 

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because when people get screwed or cheated we should just say that's ok.  

 

West Orange didn't get in last year because Timber Creek forfeited games and they got in this year because Timber Creek upset Hagerty week 11.  That just shows how  F..ed up this system is.  Your playoff future depends on whether a team double checks how old a kid is?  Yup sounds like a great system we have.   

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5 minutes ago, badbird said:

because when people get screwed or cheated we should just say that's ok.  

 

West Orange didn't get in last year because Timber Creek forfeited games and they got in this year because Timber Creek upset Hagerty week 11.  That just shows how  F..ed up this system is.  Your playoff future depends on whether a team double checks how old a kid is?  Yup sounds like a great system we have.   

In the ancient days, there were less ways to get "screwed."  For some it is a positive that many more teams get in the playoffs today.  That comes at a cost, though, as seen today with debates over how to select those teams.  We wouldn't be having these debates if only district champions got in....or if we let everyone in like some states.  We don't like either of those two options, but folks don't like getting screwed either.  With the old system Booker T got screwed.  Now somebody else is getting screwed with the new system.  Doesn't this sound a bit like raising children, parents out there?  There has to be compromise.       

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24 minutes ago, badbird said:

because when people get screwed or cheated we should just say that's ok.  

 

First, let me say I'm not defending this system. It's easy to see some f*cked up things.

But, problem is, people ALWAYS think/say they're getting screwed over if they don't like an outcome. Just look at our political races. Everyone is accusing everyone else of screwing them over. You name the team, and, if they don't like an outcome, they're telling everyone they got screwed. You read a recap of a game from a fan who's team lost it is 99.9% certain they will say the refs screwed their team. 

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Well the system is dumb but I’m not in charge of changing it.  Hopefully they come up with something better next time. I prefer coin toss or Rock Paper Scissors.  Both seem to be just as good as the current system and I’m undefeated in Rock Paper Scissors 

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34 minutes ago, badbird said:

Well the system is dumb but I’m not in charge of changing it.  Hopefully they come up with something better next time. I prefer coin toss or Rock Paper Scissors.  Both seem to be just as good as the current system and I’m undefeated in Rock Paper Scissors 

What if they went back to district champs and runner ups after fixing the unbalanced regions and districts and just use point system for seeding

 

Then it's still all based on the field, nobody is entitled to home field so if the point system is only used for seeding then perhaps people would be able to accept it

 

As long as every game has a impact on playoffs and we have a true seeding system idc what they do

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