Jump to content

  • Announcements

    • Joshua Wilson

      Rules of the Forums   09/02/2017

      Please be sure to read the rules of the forums. This is only to help all of us have a good time and we want to keep this board as fun as possible. 
    • SportsNut25

      Talking Other Sports   11/08/2017

      For those interested in talking about other sports, you can talk about them here. 
Sign in to follow this  
181pl

So the two best teams in the entire state are playing each other in round 2...

Recommended Posts

And this is an improvement? I think we need to seed by Section (not region) before the first round starts. You'd have Carol City and Central meeting in the semi's, where they should be meeting. Not in round two. The region immediately above 4 is not strong. So why punish a super strong section, like 6A 4, by having them knock each other off in tough games before the semis? Maybe Naples and Charlotte would crack the top 6 in Region 4. But there is no way they could advance out of that region.

If it was done right, the section would probably look something like this. The travel is not too crazy. S. Fla. and S.W. Fla is only a 70 minute ride over the Alley.  The only really long drives would have been Clearwater to Central (4 hours) and N. Fort Myers to Mainland (probably 3.5). Largo can get to Charlotte in 90 minutes or less.

1. Carol City v. 16. Lehigh

2. Central v. 15. Clearwater

3. Mainland v. 14. N. Fort Myers

4. Heritage. 13. Norland

5. Naples v. 12 Eue Galle

6. Dillard v. 11. Fort Myers

7. Northwestern v. 10. Barron Collier

8. Charlotte v. 9. Largo

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, 181pl said:

And this is an improvement? I think we need to seed by Section (not region) before the first round starts. You'd have Carol City and Central meeting in the semi's, where they should be meeting. Not in round two. The region immediately above 4 is not strong. So why punish a super strong section, like 6A 4, by having them knock each other off in tough games before the semis? Maybe Naples and Charlotte would crack the top 6 in Region 4. But there is no way they could advance out of that region.

If it was done right, the section would probably look something like this. The travel is not too crazy. S. Fla. and S.W. Fla is only a 70 minute ride over the Alley.  The only really long drives would have been Clearwater to Central (4 hours) and N. Fort Myers to Mainland (probably 3.5). Largo can get to Charlotte in 90 minutes or less.

1. Carol City v. 16. Lehigh

2. Central v. 15. Clearwater

3. Mainland v. 14. N. Fort Myers

4. Heritage. 13. Norland

5. Naples v. 12 Eue Galle

6. Dillard v. 11. Fort Myers

7. Northwestern v. 10. Barron Collier

8. Charlotte v. 9. Largo

 

I am inclined to agree with you. Central Carol City should not occur till at the very earliest, the third round. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, 181pl said:

And this is an improvement? I think we need to seed by Section (not region) before the first round starts. You'd have Carol City and Central meeting in the semi's, where they should be meeting. Not in round two. The region immediately above 4 is not strong. So why punish a super strong section, like 6A 4, by having them knock each other off in tough games before the semis? Maybe Naples and Charlotte would crack the top 6 in Region 4. But there is no way they could advance out of that region.

If it was done right, the section would probably look something like this. The travel is not too crazy. S. Fla. and S.W. Fla is only a 70 minute ride over the Alley.  The only really long drives would have been Clearwater to Central (4 hours) and N. Fort Myers to Mainland (probably 3.5). Largo can get to Charlotte in 90 minutes or less.

1. Carol City v. 16. Lehigh

2. Central v. 15. Clearwater

3. Mainland v. 14. N. Fort Myers

4. Heritage. 13. Norland

5. Naples v. 12 Eue Galle

6. Dillard v. 11. Fort Myers

7. Northwestern v. 10. Barron Collier

8. Charlotte v. 9. Largo

 

There are two issues.  The first one is obvious...NW, Central, Carol City and Norland are crammed into one district.  When 6A was the largest class, Carol City and Norland were not in even in the same region as Central and Northwestern.  They were in region 3 with a number of Broward schools.  So, we created that problem knowing it would be an issue regardless of the system being used.  

Second, I don't care for this hybrid approach of using district champions and wildcards based on seedings.  If the use of power ranking averages truly makes sense, then why the hesitation to go all in and use seedings across the board?  Either it makes sense or it doesn't.    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Says the same guy who argued Jefferson had no business being in the playoffs, yet Jefferson goes out and knocks off a 10-0 district champ in the 1st round................The current playoff structure is what it is, we could nit pick about it all day long...............so title weekend might be anti-climatic for 6A, again it is what it is! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, FL_HS_football said:

Says the same guy who argued Jefferson had no business being in the playoffs, yet Jefferson goes out and knocks off a 10-0 district champ in the 1st round................The current playoff structure is what it is, we could nit pick about it all day long...............so title weekend might be anti-climatic for 6A, again it is what it is! 

I didn't say they had no business in the playoffs. They are a good team (for 5-5). I said the system was flawed because they qualified by finishing 3rd in their district and lost to the team that finished 2nd at home who ended up with the same record.

 

I called them beating Hardee in a close game. 10-0 against mediocrity is not impressive. Although Hardee certainly deserved a playoff spot and good seed, nobody would argue that they were the best team in the region.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, 181pl said:

I didn't say they had no business in the playoffs. They are a good team (for 5-5). I said the system was flawed because they qualified by finishing 3rd in their district and lost to the team that finished 2nd at home who ended up with the same record.

 

I called them beating Hardee in a close game. 10-0 against mediocrity is not impressive. Although Hardee certainly deserved a playoff spot and good seed, nobody would argue that they were the best team in the region.

Not to change the subject, what do you think about Plant's game next week?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, FL_HS_football said:

Not to change the subject, what do you think about Plant's game next week?

Close game. I posted on this in another thread. If Plant starts slow like they've been doing lately I see Viera by 10ish. If Plant plays to full potential from the first whistle, I see Plant by 7.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

Disagree that teams should be north/south of bracket, just a quick example, you are asking Sebring to travel 7.5 hours to the panhandle for a 1st round game, that is unacceptable 

Then have the North Region stop around Orlando.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, LakelandGator said:

181,

The #2 team in the state is not written in stone, see Dillard for details.

Dillard just lost Central, the #2 team in the state. If you're not counting IMG, I've got:

 

1. Carol City

2. Central

3. STA

 

It's academic after that because those 3 are pretty far above the next tier.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/10/2018 at 8:36 AM, FL_HS_football said:

Not to change the subject, what do you think about Plant's game next week?

Viera is looking forward to this game. Last year's ending didn't sit well with the fan-base or the players. This game will be settled on the field not the press-box. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/10/2018 at 8:01 AM, 181pl said:

And this is an improvement? I think we need to seed by Section (not region) before the first round starts. You'd have Carol City and Central meeting in the semi's, where they should be meeting. Not in round two. The region immediately above 4 is not strong. So why punish a super strong section, like 6A 4, by having them knock each other off in tough games before the semis? Maybe Naples and Charlotte would crack the top 6 in Region 4. But there is no way they could advance out of that region.

If it was done right, the section would probably look something like this. The travel is not too crazy. S. Fla. and S.W. Fla is only a 70 minute ride over the Alley.  The only really long drives would have been Clearwater to Central (4 hours) and N. Fort Myers to Mainland (probably 3.5). Largo can get to Charlotte in 90 minutes or less.

1. Carol City v. 16. Lehigh

2. Central v. 15. Clearwater

3. Mainland v. 14. N. Fort Myers

4. Heritage. 13. Norland

5. Naples v. 12 Eue Galle

6. Dillard v. 11. Fort Myers

7. Northwestern v. 10. Barron Collier

8. Charlotte v. 9. Largo

 

I have already asked about this approach and travel would be the biggest thing and it would take a lot of changes to make such a bracket happen. The districts/regions would have to be lined up to where travel will not be massive. No matter what you are going to have Jacksonville and Panhandle in the same sector and no matter how you try to line it up someone is going to have to travel in that 6 hour stretch of I-10.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/10/2018 at 8:01 AM, 181pl said:

And this is an improvement? I think we need to seed by Section (not region) before the first round starts. You'd have Carol City and Central meeting in the semi's, where they should be meeting. Not in round two. The region immediately above 4 is not strong. So why punish a super strong section, like 6A 4, by having them knock each other off in tough games before the semis? Maybe Naples and Charlotte would crack the top 6 in Region 4. But there is no way they could advance out of that region.

If it was done right, the section would probably look something like this. The travel is not too crazy. S. Fla. and S.W. Fla is only a 70 minute ride over the Alley.  The only really long drives would have been Clearwater to Central (4 hours) and N. Fort Myers to Mainland (probably 3.5). Largo can get to Charlotte in 90 minutes or less.

1. Carol City v. 16. Lehigh

2. Central v. 15. Clearwater

3. Mainland v. 14. N. Fort Myers

4. Heritage. 13. Norland

5. Naples v. 12 Eue Galle

6. Dillard v. 11. Fort Myers

7. Northwestern v. 10. Barron Collier

8. Charlotte v. 9. Largo

 

Yeah I'm not sure things have improved.  Teams will abuse the loop holes in the reg season now as well.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Joshua Wilson said:

I have already asked about this approach and travel would be the biggest thing and it would take a lot of changes to make such a bracket happen. The districts/regions would have to be lined up to where travel will not be massive. No matter what you are going to have Jacksonville and Panhandle in the same sector and no matter how you try to line it up someone is going to have to travel in that 6 hour stretch of I-10.

General comment here.  I am baffled today when I hear folks talk about travel as an issue.  Sure we have to be fiscally responsible.  But it seems odd to me that travel becomes a red flag when so many teams today, even weak ones, are justifying long treks to play OOS teams and/or teams from other parts of the state.  In the dinosaur days, we had fewer classes and some regions could be much more spread out.  We had teams from Miami traveling to Pensacola to play in title games.  And travel was potentially more challenging 40 years ago.  If anything, traveling today is much easier.

The world is much smaller today, and with our current mindset, I would think travel would be much less of a consideration than in the past.  We want more teams in the playoffs, we want teams earning home field advantage, we want equity amongst the classes, etc etc  All those desires come at a cost.  There is no free lunch.  Travel could be one of those "costs."   

If we are watching our pennies, how can we justify the aforementioned travel?  And how can we have classes that necessitate multiple teams from the northern part of the state having to travel to Pahokee for playoff games?  If travel costs are a red flag today, I have lots of holes to poke at.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

General comment here.  I am baffled today when I hear folks talk about travel as an issue.  Sure we have to be fiscally responsible.  But it seems odd to me that travel becomes a red flag when so many teams today, even weak ones, are justifying long treks to play OOS teams and/or teams from other parts of the state.  In the dinosaur days, we had fewer classes and some regions could be much more spread out.  We had teams from Miami traveling to Pensacola to play in title games.  And travel was potentially more challenging 40 years ago.  If anything, traveling today is much easier.

The world is much smaller today, and with our current mindset, I would think travel would be much less of a consideration than in the past.  We want more teams in the playoffs, we want teams earning home field advantage, we want equity amongst the classes, etc etc  All those desires come at a cost.  There is no free lunch.  Travel could be one of those "costs."   

If we are watching our pennies, how can we justify the aforementioned travel?  And how can we have classes that necessitate multiple teams from the northern part of the state having to travel to Pahokee for playoff games?  If travel costs are a red flag today, I have lots of holes to poke at.

 

 

I think the option of seeding 1-16 and having a true North/South bracket (1-12 in smaller classes) would work, but the mapping has to be done correctly. Tampa schools should be in the South IMHO and Daytona schools in the north. We will never have a TRUE 1-32 bracket because that asking Pensacola to go on the road Miami or vice versa and that would be two days out of school automatically and the FHSAA had always wanted to avoid that for the sake of the student-athletes. Granted it this happens with state championships, but that is the exception and should never be the norm. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

General comment here.  I am baffled today when I hear folks talk about travel as an issue.  Sure we have to be fiscally responsible.  But it seems odd to me that travel becomes a red flag when so many teams today, even weak ones, are justifying long treks to play OOS teams and/or teams from other parts of the state.  In the dinosaur days, we had fewer classes and some regions could be much more spread out.  We had teams from Miami traveling to Pensacola to play in title games.  And travel was potentially more challenging 40 years ago.  If anything, traveling today is much easier.

The world is much smaller today, and with our current mindset, I would think travel would be much less of a consideration than in the past.  We want more teams in the playoffs, we want teams earning home field advantage, we want equity amongst the classes, etc etc  All those desires come at a cost.  There is no free lunch.  Travel could be one of those "costs."   

If we are watching our pennies, how can we justify the aforementioned travel?  And how can we have classes that necessitate multiple teams from the northern part of the state having to travel to Pahokee for playoff games?  If travel costs are a red flag today, I have lots of holes to poke at.


Pahokee is a result of rural classification, nothing more. You want to be rural and under 600, find other schools. Moore Haven, Glades Day are the only ones that I think fall into that south of Orlando. 

The problem with travel is going to be cost and time. You are asking a for a huge commitment. In 6A, let us use the two #1 seeds (Navarre and Vanguard).

The travel there is 5h 15 minutes according to google and 367 miles (1 way), based on a formula that is probably out of date by now (7-10 years old). The cost for a school would be $1300 for one school bus, not counting cheer, band, and most likely needing 2 buses for the football team. If you are talking about that type of trip for a 1st round game that is really expensive, even if you just are talking about 2 team buses.

The FHSAA takes 25% of the gate receipts for football (I think) and let's the two teams have a split after the expenses are paid. So if we safely assume $1000 of expenses and that visitors gets 35%. a school probably needs about 1400 people for a 1st round game for visiting squad to break even. While I would hope everyone shows up to games, 1250 people seems really high for some games I have attended. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:


Pahokee is a result of rural classification, nothing more. You want to be rural and under 600, find other schools. Moore Haven, Glades Day are the only ones that I think fall into that south of Orlando. 

The problem with travel is going to be cost and time. You are asking a for a huge commitment. In 6A, let us use the two #1 seeds (Navarre and Vanguard).

The travel there is 5h 15 minutes according to google and 367 miles (1 way), based on a formula that is probably out of date by now (7-10 years old). The cost for a school would be $1300 for one school bus, not counting cheer, band, and most likely needing 2 buses for the football team. If you are talking about that type of trip for a 1st round game that is really expensive, even if you just are talking about 2 team buses.

The FHSAA takes 25% of the gate receipts for football (I think) and let's the two teams have a split after the expenses are paid. So if we safely assume $1000 of expenses and that visitors gets 35%. a school probably needs about 1400 people for a 1st round game for visiting squad to break even. While I would hope everyone shows up to games, 1250 people seems really high for some games I have attended. 

 

Great analysis.  Just one person's perspective...when I see the money being spent today on "extravagances" at the high school level, $1000-$2000 is chump change.   The weight rooms with flat screen TV's, the practice fields, the equipment...it is utterly mindboggling for some of us.  If schools are worried about $1000, how can we justify spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on stuff that is nice, but not essential, to play football?  Worst case, if there is a potential "loss" in funds, where are the athlete's parents chipping in?  I would think some would be thrilled to death their son's team is in the playoffs.  With what people spend today on "extravagances," I struggle when hearing that some folks cannot afford to donate money.  Sorry, but this ol man don't get it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Overnight travel can get expensive. But schools have to consider these things and ask boosters and or their own counties to step up. Also if the FHSAA is making a team travel more than a few hours away, they should also help them supplement travel through the gate proceeds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, OldSchoolLion said:

Great analysis.  Just one person's perspective...when I see the money being spent today on "extravagances" at the high school level, $1000-$2000 is chump change.   The weight rooms with flat screen TV's, the practice fields, the equipment...it is utterly mindboggling for some of us.  If schools are worried about $1000, how can we justify spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on stuff that is nice, but not essential, to play football?  Worst case, if there is a potential "loss" in funds, where are the athlete's parents chipping in?  I would think some would be thrilled to death their son's team is in the playoffs.  With what people spend today on "extravagances," I struggle when hearing that some folks cannot afford to donate money.  Sorry, but this ol man don't get it.

OldSchool

While I understand what you are suggesting, I helped with a low-budget, unpopular team sport for several years. Other than travel, our budget would still have been $6500 (officials, ticket takers, security, uniforms, shoes, equipment replacements). Travel was about $3500. 

I am not sure of football program's budgets, I am sure they are going into the 70K and above range. But again, I think travel should be restricted until later rounds, then it is only 32 (regional finals) teams potentially traveling long distances instead of 256 (1st round) teams. If two good teams face each other one round earlier, is it really that big of a deal. They would have to face each other anyway. 

One thing I wish the FHSAA would explore is putting the games on smaller stadiums than the Citrus Bowl. UCF's Stadium holds 48K, FAU's holds 29K, and FIU holds 20K. All would be better options than the Citrus Bowl (refuse to call it corporate sponsor name). Do I want teams from the panhandle traveling that far? Not really, especially as they are some of the better crowds. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

OldSchool

While I understand what you are suggesting, I helped with a low-budget, unpopular team sport for several years. Other than travel, our budget would still have been $6500 (officials, ticket takers, security, uniforms, shoes, equipment replacements). Travel was about $3500. 

I am not sure of football program's budgets, I am sure they are going into the 70K and above range. But again, I think travel should be restricted until later rounds, then it is only 32 (regional finals) teams potentially traveling long distances instead of 256 (1st round) teams. If two good teams face each other one round earlier, is it really that big of a deal. They would have to face each other anyway. 

One thing I wish the FHSAA would explore is putting the games on smaller stadiums than the Citrus Bowl. UCF's Stadium holds 48K, FAU's holds 29K, and FIU holds 20K. All would be better options than the Citrus Bowl (refuse to call it corporate sponsor name). Do I want teams from the panhandle traveling that far? Not really, especially as they are some of the better crowds. 

Is there any neutral site stadium in North Florida large enough to hold it? 

 

Ik the gators stadium used to hold it but they haven't placed a bid lately and I'm curious if any other Stadium in this area is large enough to hold it (20-30k with potential for expansion if needed)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, gatorman-uf said:

OldSchool

While I understand what you are suggesting, I helped with a low-budget, unpopular team sport for several years. Other than travel, our budget would still have been $6500 (officials, ticket takers, security, uniforms, shoes, equipment replacements). Travel was about $3500. 

I am not sure of football program's budgets, I am sure they are going into the 70K and above range. But again, I think travel should be restricted until later rounds, then it is only 32 (regional finals) teams potentially traveling long distances instead of 256 (1st round) teams. If two good teams face each other one round earlier, is it really that big of a deal. They would have to face each other anyway. 

One thing I wish the FHSAA would explore is putting the games on smaller stadiums than the Citrus Bowl. UCF's Stadium holds 48K, FAU's holds 29K, and FIU holds 20K. All would be better options than the Citrus Bowl (refuse to call it corporate sponsor name). Do I want teams from the panhandle traveling that far? Not really, especially as they are some of the better crowds. 

If travel should be restricted until later rounds (and I think that makes a lot of sense), the current system is problematic.  Look at the some of the first round games below, to name a few, that necessitated 150 or miles of travel.  I am not even including the teams from west of Tallahassee.  If we need to be counting our pennies(and we likely do), how is this scenario justified?  

Back in the 1980's in the upper classes, it was relatively rare to see teams traveling 150 miles for a first round game (our current equivalent of a second round game).  One might not travel 150 miles until a regional or sectional final.  In the first round back then, one typically played a team from an adjacent county or two counties over.  In the upper classes, one would not see a team from Dade or Broward counties FL playing a central FL team in the first or second round, like we do now.  

But some don't like big districts, some want more flexibility in scheduling, some think the "old way" was boring, etc etc....but then I am also hearing we don't want to spend on excessive travel costs.  Well, the current system is already way overboard compared to the old days in terms of potential expense in the earlier rounds.  It reminds me of someone who just brought a brand new Lexus and when asked why they didn't get a Mercedes, says "Oh no, I could never afford that."  Well then, maybe you should not have bought the Lexus either.       

  

Vanguard vs Sebring

Gainesville vs Lake Wales

Mainland vs Northwestern

Lee vs Hagerty

Viera vs Sickles

Lincoln vs Oakleaf

Riverview vs Treasure Coast

Rockledge vs Coconut Creek

Cardinal Gibbons vs Merritt Island

Baker County vs Hernando 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  



×