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Mandarin Situation Is Disappointing


OldSchoolLion

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55 minutes ago, gwdrum75 said:

3.)    Deyavie Hammond  4* OT- Was at IMG last season - Was at Lakeland his Freshman & Sophomore year

6.)    Khalil Crawford LB – was at Prattville HS before transferring to Lakeland - I would assume he moved to Lakeland and isn't commuting from Alabama.

10.)  Tayshawn Rodman DB – was at Victory Christian before transferring into Lakeland - Likely lives in Lakeland zone anyway as most VC & LCS kids do.

11.) Jace Hohenthaner K – was at Land O Lakes HS before transferring into Lakeland - See #6....I'm sure he's not commuting from LOL.

12.)  Tyler Sheffield OC – was at Victory Christian before transferring into Lakeland - See #10......ditto

Sure, Lakeland gets transfers. But, the most amusing thing I read every year is how people don't mention the kids that transfer out of Lakeland every year because they aren't starters. I believe two years ago, Lakeland lost 10+ players that transferred out to other schools.

While, I admit, I miss the days of hometown teams that grew from JV to Varsity, those days are over.

And, lets face it.......if you want to go back to those days, you might as well cancel the State Championship series. STA and many other privates would never lose another one if they only had to go against the old-school hometown public schools.

Interesting point about the kids who transfer out.  I haven't felt compelled to scrutinize Lakeland's transfer situation.  The Naughts have a culture of winning, a great coach, and have not been winning a disproportionate amount of playoff games in recent years.  They have had up and down years over the past 10...cyclical performance as one would expect at a school not unduly influenced by "external influence."   Would say the same about schools like Northwestern and Carol City. 

It's the teams that seem to come out of nowhere that get my attention.  One cannot assume simply because that happens that there is funny business going on.  But it does raise questions.

   

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1 hour ago, gwdrum75 said:

3.)    Deyavie Hammond  4* OT- Was at IMG last season - Was at Lakeland his Freshman & Sophomore year

6.)    Khalil Crawford LB – was at Prattville HS before transferring to Lakeland - I would assume he moved to Lakeland and isn't commuting from Alabama.

10.)  Tayshawn Rodman DB – was at Victory Christian before transferring into Lakeland - Likely lives in Lakeland zone anyway as most VC & LCS kids do.

11.) Jace Hohenthaner K – was at Land O Lakes HS before transferring into Lakeland - See #6....I'm sure he's not commuting from LOL.

12.)  Tyler Sheffield OC – was at Victory Christian before transferring into Lakeland - See #10......ditto

Sure, Lakeland gets transfers. But, the most amusing thing I read every year is how people don't mention the kids that transfer out of Lakeland every year because they aren't starters. I believe two years ago, Lakeland lost 10+ players that transferred out to other schools.

While, I admit, I miss the days of hometown teams that grew from JV to Varsity, those days are over.

And, lets face it.......if you want to go back to those days, you might as well cancel the State Championship series. STA and many other privates would never lose another one if they only had to go against the old-school hometown public schools.

This is not a trick question and I don't have a point to prove by asking it.  Just curious.  If the folks who transferred into Lakeland this year and past, excluding Hammond and the 2 who came from outside the immediate area(let's assume they came/came back for all the right reasons), had done not so, how would the team have performed relative to this year's performance?  Assume the kids who left Lakeland over the past two years stayed and did not transfer.

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14 hours ago, OldSchoolLion said:

Not since Champagnat did it in 2013 has a 2-win team turned things around and won a state title the following season.  And I remember the whispers of skepticism that accompanied that accomplishment, ie private school recruiting.  Well, now Mandarin has now done the same.  I was aware that one of the top qb's in the state, Carson Beck,  had transferred in this season, but just today learned that 3 of their wide receivers all did the same this season or last.  Senior Darien Oxendine came over from Menendez this season.  Senior Demario Douglas did the same last season, and senior Kris Mitchell transferred from Bolles (isn't that ironic) last season. 

After watching them this evening, it's pretty obvious that Mandarin's offense would likely be nowhere close to their current level of performance without those 4 players.  I poked fun at Chaminade for having an "instant wide receiver corps" this year due to transfers, but at least their qb has been there the past 3 seasons.  This situation at Mandarin takes it to another level with Beck coming over. 

Is it Mandarin's "fault" these fellows wanted to come to school there?  Not necessarily.  Should this situation take away from their state title?  Not necessarily.  If this was a private school, would some folks be jumping up and down about the situation and pointing fingers?  You bet. 

Ironically, the public school had the edge tonight due to transfers.  Columbus is a team that has paid their dues over the years and never won a title in over 50 years.  Mandarin is an upstart program that has historically had little playoff success. How many times has the shoe been on the other foot with a private school skyrocketing to prominence and denying a public school that has paid its dues? 

It's about time the shoe is on the other foot, right?  Well, maybe so.  But if we are going to take that position, we have to start admitting that the argument that private schools still have the edge is losing its ability to hold water.  If we are going to continue questioning private schools about transfers/recruiting when they win state titles under unusual circumstances, I think it is only fair to do the same for public schools.  I've called out Chaminade this year and now that I learn about Mandarin am doing the same. 

Sorry, but it is highly suspect when a program goes from 1 playoff win in its first 25 years and numerous losing seasons to winning an 8A title in such short order.  You don't have that kind of success that quickly under "natural" circumstances.  If there is nothing unusual about it, what the private schools are doing today must be normal, too.  

I am disappointed...not necessarily at the Mandarin football program, but the circumstances under which it won....with kids that spent a limited amount of their playing time there.  No way they win an 8A title without those 4.  And I would say the exact same of any program that won under such circumstances.  I think most of our powerhouse programs today are not winning titles simply because of transfers.  But occasionally we get situations like those at Chaminade and Mandarin where one questions if they could have won without them.        

 

 

 

 

 

This same scenario is the main reason why 8A has had the most parity IMO.  With Columbus being the only private school with a chance in 8A it has been the big public schools who are getting a mass of transfers and winning the class... Kudos to Apopka for doing it with home grown talent tho.

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7 hours ago, peezy28 said:

This same scenario is the main reason why 8A has had the most parity IMO.  With Columbus being the only private school with a chance in 8A it has been the big public schools who are getting a mass of transfers and winning the class... Kudos to Apopka for doing it with home grown talent tho.

It's not apples to apples though.   Jacksonville is huge and spread out.  We have 20 high schools not including the private schools.  The talent is so dispersed.   It is much harder to have all "home grown" talent like a school like apopka, who before wekiva, got all the players in the area.  Especially when it comes to 6-8A.  The student body may be huge, but that doesn't mean alot of those kids play sports.  I speak from experience as my son starts on d for Mandarin and is a non transfer junior.  Most cases up here, one or 2 transfers usually does not have this kind of impact. 

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10 hours ago, OldSchoolLion said:

From a historical perspective, most private schools have not done a disproportionate amount of winning.  Bolles and St Thomas got folks started on the private school kick 25 years ago, and for good reason.  Some folks don't like calling out individual schools, but it may be the lesser of 2 evils than to generalize "privates."  Not being critical, just an observation.   

If schools like Tampa Catholic, Jesuit and Columbus have been recruiting heavily all these years, they need to get new recruiters because not one has a state title in the past 50 years LOL   

Bingo.

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12 hours ago, OldSchoolLion said:

In case there is any question, I don't pimp any schools or parts of the state, and am neutral in the public vs private debate.  None of my comments should be taken as having an undercurrent of favoritism.  I call things as I see them.  I have no ties to Columbus or Mandarin.  Thought it was a great game and the better team won last night.  That's not the issue, though.

"But the weakest of all arguments is "They have no playoff history" or even better... "Oh, but they paid their dues..." Like it is a right of passage or something.  WTF?"  I think you missed my point.  I mentioned Columbus' history not to imply that in some way they deserved to win.  I did so to paint a picture of how folks would have likely reacted if a private school had beaten a public school under the exact same circumstances.  I can hear the moaning now about how _____missed out on a state title because some upstart private school beat them.  

When schools like Oxbridge and University "popped up," there were a lot of tough questions asked...and rightfully so.  For years private schools have been intensely scrutinized.  Public schools, including Mandarin, may need to learn how it feels now.  Not fun, huh?  Well, it probably wasn't for them either.

Please give me the name of another public school in the upper classes that has done anything like what Mandardin did this year in terms of rising to prominence in such short order and coming off a 2-8 season to win a title.  Questioning it is not necessarily a matter of nitpicking or being butt hurt.  Anyone who knows FL hs football over the past 50 years knows those circumstances are extremely unusual.  Does it mean Mandarin did anything wrong?  No.  Would even the most neutral person ask "How did that happen?"  I think that's reasonable, so Mandarin folks should not be butt hurt that someone is bringing this situation to light.   This thread is not just about Mandarin.  There are much broader implications of the discussion.

"Almost every title winning team ever can be narrowed down to a handful of players making the difference and I bet the lion's share of those arrived at their schools due to similar situations."  You may well be right, sir.  Please give us names of players and details of their transfers to prove that point.  Until I see facts, I don't make such assumptions out of fairness to those programs.  I happen to know that Cardinal Gibbons had only 2 transfers that started this year because I took the time to research.  Surprising, huh?

"Maybe all this is just that Mandarin pissed in the Wheaties of all the peeps downstate who believe that it is some divine intervention that large school titles are theirs and theirs alone.  Welp, that changed last night.  Time to get over it."

That is not the case with me, sir.  I have actually done entire threads on North FL football, including the dominance of North FL over other parts of the state back in the 1970's and 1980's.  Not everyone who raises issues has a hidden agenda. 

The next time somebody raises questions about a program, I'll be watching for you, Shredstar, to come to their defense and tell the questioner to knock it off and stop the sour grapes.  If what happened at Mandarin this year is not worthy of objective, honest scrutiny, I cannot think of much that is.  

 

Old School...............If those two players were both D-1 capable that could be a huge plus for Gibbons or for any other school. Just one D-1 player can make a ton of difference. Most HS football teams have one or two players that are heads above the other players. Some schools have maybe one RB or possibly a QB, wherein if they lost those players to injury the team probably would not be able to win very much. And, some teams have as much as 8 to 10 transfers every year. Not only is that artificially enhancing that team greatly but it is forcing other players to be benched or marginalized. Is this what HS sports has come to?

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1 hour ago, Proseteye said:

Old School...............If those two players were both D-1 capable that could be a huge plus for Gibbons or for any other school. Just one D-1 player can make a ton of difference. Most HS football teams have one or two players that are heads above the other players. Some schools have maybe one RB or possibly a QB, wherein if they lost those players to injury the team probably would not be able to win very much. And, some teams have as much as 8 to 10 transfers every year. Not only is that artificially enhancing that team greatly but it is forcing other players to be benched or marginalized. Is this what HS sports has come to?

It could.  In this case, Gibbons got a junior WR and a senior OL, neither of whom is currently "rated."  Even if they were 3-star players, on a team that has that much talent as they do, I doubt they would make a huge difference.  Could it give them an edge in a specific game with specific matchups...sure.  Is 1 or 2 transfers going to turn a mediocre team into a state title winner?...unlikely.  And as someone reminded us earlier today, some of these teams that get transfers are also losing transfer players, so one has to look at the net gain. 

Are some teams getting 8-10 transfers in a year.  I'm sure.  Are some teams getting 8-10 "impact" transfers every year.  I haven't found one yet that is.  Some of the traditional powerhouses, ie ST Thomas, are building talent from within and don't need that many transfers every year to be competitive.  

 
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Is anyone surprised that a team who won a state title, that went 2-8 the year before, got a bunch of impact transfers? That’s the name of the game here in Florida. The addition of Beck was obviously huge and you can see the difference between when he didn’t play vs when he did this year. 

If you’re a good coach and you’ve got job opportunities out of state? Get gone. You can make more money and actually have more control over your success. You won’t have to deal with recruiting classes beating you anymore. 

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3 hours ago, Stangs1 said:

It's not apples to apples though.   Jacksonville is huge and spread out.  We have 20 high schools not including the private schools.  The talent is so dispersed.   It is much harder to have all "home grown" talent like a school like apopka, who before wekiva, got all the players in the area.  Especially when it comes to 6-8A.  The student body may be huge, but that doesn't mean alot of those kids play sports.  I speak from experience as my son starts on d for Mandarin and is a non transfer junior.  Most cases up here, one or 2 transfers usually does not have this kind of impact. 

I can appreciate the challenge.  Other counties have unique challenges, too.  Broward County has a lot of talent.  One might public schools there are sitting pretty.  However, there is tremendous competition for that talent.  See the numbers below.  Public schools in Broward County have fared worse than public schools in other counties in terms of winning region titles.  If one uses state titles as the metric, Broward County schools lag as well.  So, although talent might be more spread out in Jacksonville, that can have advantages as well as disadvantages. 

Over the past 12 seasons...

St John's County 4 of 6 (67%)  public high schools won a region title(s)

Miami-Dade County 9 of 34 (26%) public high schools won a region title(s)

Orange County 5 of 20 (25%) public high schools won a region title(s)

Duval County 4 of 17(24%)  public high schools won a region title(s)

Palm Beach County 5 of 21(24%) public high schools won a region title(s)

Broward County 4 of 27(15%)  public high schools won a region title(s)

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On 12/9/2018 at 12:22 PM, gwdrum75 said:

3.)    Deyavie Hammond  4* OT- Was at IMG last season - Was at Lakeland his Freshman & Sophomore year

6.)    Khalil Crawford LB – was at Prattville HS before transferring to Lakeland - I would assume he moved to Lakeland and isn't commuting from Alabama.

10.)  Tayshawn Rodman DB – was at Victory Christian before transferring into Lakeland - Likely lives in Lakeland zone anyway as most VC & LCS kids do.

11.) Jace Hohenthaner K – was at Land O Lakes HS before transferring into Lakeland - See #6....I'm sure he's not commuting from LOL.

12.)  Tyler Sheffield OC – was at Victory Christian before transferring into Lakeland - See #10......ditto

Sure, Lakeland gets transfers. But, the most amusing thing I read every year is how people don't mention the kids that transfer out of Lakeland every year because they aren't starters. I believe two years ago, Lakeland lost 10+ players that transferred out to other schools.

FL_HS_football since the night of August 24th

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On 12/9/2018 at 1:35 PM, OldSchoolLion said:

This is not a trick question and I don't have a point to prove by asking it.  Just curious.  If the folks who transferred into Lakeland this year and past, excluding Hammond and the 2 who came from outside the immediate area(let's assume they came/came back for all the right reasons), had done not so, how would the team have performed relative to this year's performance?  Assume the kids who left Lakeland over the past two years stayed and did not transfer.

This might help OldSchool

1. Sheffield started all last season at previous school, saw an opening at Lakeland's center position this year, or so he thought. End up playing only when the running clocks started. Bad move on his part, but he got a ring out of it.

2. Rodman, see previous memo. Not sure how much he played at Victory but should have stayed there. Had an INT in a runninng clock game against Bartow's reserves. But he was lights out on KO return team. 

3. DB's Ware/ Nixon played so little at LGibson why stay as seniors? Add to the fact that Lakeland's entire secondary graduated last year, so they also saw possible playing time as seniors for a good team. And they played, with some good coaching. But if anyone's thinks those two are All-Stars, get some professional help. 

4. Martin and his folks were LIED to by LG staff and left the school. I will leave it at that. He fits the All-Star category now, he didn't 4 months ago.

5. Summerall= All Star

6. Ski McWilliams has been zoned for Lakeland HS all his life, and yes he was key to winning this year. Without him they go 13-1

7. Crawford and Hohentaner's family moved to the area 2 years ago as Greg already stated. Crawford played "behind" the leading tackler last year who graduated. He got his opportunity to play this year and did well. Lakeland has a soph LB behind him who is even better.

Bottom line there are some people on this site who intentionally put out innuendos and misleading info.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, LakelandGator said:

This might help OldSchool

1. Sheffield started all last season at previous school, saw an opening at Lakeland's center position this year, or so he thought. End up playing only when the running clocks started. Bad move on his part, but he got a ring out of it.

2. Rodman, see previous memo. Not sure how much he played at Victory but should have stayed there. Had an INT in a runninng clock game against Bartow's reserves. But he was lights out on KO return team. 

3. DB's Ware/ Nixon played so little at LGibson why stay as seniors? Add to the fact that Lakeland's entire secondary graduated last year, so they also saw possible playing time as seniors for a good team. And they played, with some good coaching. But if anyone's thinks those two are All-Stars, get some professional help. 

4. Martin and his folks were LIED to by LG staff and left the school. I will leave it at that. He fits the All-Star category now, he didn't 4 months ago.

5. Summerall= All Star

6. Ski McWilliams has been zoned for Lakeland HS all his life, and yes he was key to winning this year. Without him they go 13-1

7. Crawford and Hohentaner's family moved to the area 2 years ago as Greg already stated. Crawford played "behind" the leading tackler last year who graduated. He got his opportunity to play this year and did well. Lakeland has a soph LB behind him who is even better.

Bottom line there are some people on this site who intentionally put out innuendos and misleading info.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks very much!  So, in terms of transfers, it looks like Lakeland got a solid FBS/Power 5 with Summerall and 2 "maybe's" with McWilliams and Martin, neither of whom is rated.  IMO, that is not a disproportionate amount of talent coming in via transfers, and that is the case I have found with a number of the traditional powerhouses.  There seems to be this perception that some teams are reloading every year with big-time talent, and that is often not the case. 

Like I have said in other posts, even though a team may get a number of transfers, it is quite common that a number of those are solid, but not spectacular players.  It's almost a given today that qb's move around, so McWilliams coming to Lakeland is not a big "wow" for me.  He's a solid player, but far from someone who is going to single-handedly lead a team to a state title.

Now, if McWilliams, Bowman and 2 FBS wr's came in this past season...that would really stack the deck.  

  

  

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I looked at all of the teams who have competed in state title games over the past 25 years to see if I could find a case like Mandarin's.  Have already mentioned Champagnat.  Jupiter Christian and University School both made big turnarounds, but had multiple strong seasons and were clearly teams on the rise prior to winning their title(s).  

Wekiva, Viera and Wharton were all runners-up.  Wekiva and Wharton were newer schools who ramped up their programs quickly.  Viera made a rather abrupt turnaround, but was clearly a team on the rise before making its title game appearance.  

Below is a picture of Mandarin's experience over the years.  They have had 7 coaches in the past 15 years.  Since 2004, their performance has been inconsistent.  Prior to this season, I would not have characterized them as a definitive team on the rise.  I am not aware of any public school that has won a title under quite the same circumstances.  Time will tell if this was a one-off or if this is the start of a new trend, ie teams with little playoff success winning state titles.  If the latter, good luck trying to predict state title winners year-to-year!

     

2018 11-4 record   8A state champion   Bobby Ramsay HC 

2017 2-8 record   Bobby Ramsay HC

2016 6-2 record   Quinn Gray HC   (Ribault was the only team they defeated that won a playoff game; lost 42-19 to Spruce Creek)

2015 12-1 record lost in region final   Brian Braddock HC

2014 6-5 record   Brian Braddock HC

2013 5-6 record   Brian Braddock HC

2012 3-8 record   Robert Dean HC

2011 0-10 record   Robert Dean HC

2010 4-6 record   Robert Dean HC

2009 3-7 record   Jason Robinson HC

2008 7-3 record   Jason Robinson HC

2007 1-9 record   Luther Price HC

2006 7-3 record   JD Hall HC

2005 5-6 record 1st round playoff loss   JD Hall HC

2004 6-6 record 2nd round playoff loss   JD Hall HC

2001 1st round playoff loss

1993 1st round playoff loss

1992 1st round playoff loss

 

     

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1 hour ago, OldSchoolLion said:

I looked at all of the teams who have competed in state title games over the past 25 years to see if I could find a case like Mandarin's.  Have already mentioned Champagnat.  Jupiter Christian and University School both made big turnarounds, but had multiple strong seasons and were clearly teams on the rise prior to winning their title(s).  

Wekiva, Viera and Wharton were all runners-up.  Wekiva and Wharton were newer schools who ramped up their programs quickly.  Viera made a rather abrupt turnaround, but was clearly a team on the rise before making its title game appearance.  

Below is a picture of Mandarin's experience over the years.  They have had 7 coaches in the past 15 years.  Since 2004, their performance has been inconsistent.  Prior to this season, I would not have characterized them as a definitive team on the rise.  I am not aware of any public school that has won a title under quite the same circumstances

 

 

 

     

Joe Kinnan came to Manatee prior to the 1981 season:

1st season - 1st round playoff loss

2nd season - did not qualify for the playoffs

3rd season - won the state 4A title (Florida's largest classification)

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27 minutes ago, FL_HS_football said:

Joe Kinnan came to Manatee prior to the 1981 season:

1st season - 1st round playoff loss

2nd season - did not qualify for the playoffs

3rd season - won the state 4A title (Florida's largest classification)

Sorry to say this, but I find Old School's castigation of Mandarin's State Title a bit difficult to swallow. Did they have kids transferred in? Certainly. Was this materially different than other state champs? Hardly. The fact they did it without a sustained period of of success is immaterial to the discussion in my opinion. 

They were a good team, period. Would I have done it that way if I were a head coach? Hard to say as I don't know the facts and circumstances surrounding the transfers they got! I don't think it would be my responsibility to tell kids they cannot come to Mandarin if I did not actively recruit them and they just liked what they saw or if family circumstances changed and that led to their attendance.

I will leave it at that.  

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21 minutes ago, DarterBlue2 said:

Sorry to say this, but I find Old School's castigation of Mandarin's State Title a bit difficult to swallow. Did they have kids recruited in? Certainly. Was this materially different than other state champs? Hardly. The fact they did it without a sustained period of of success is immaterial to the discussion in my opinion. 

They were a good team, period. Would I have done it that way if I were a head coach? Hard to say as I don't know the facts and circumstances surrounding the transfers they got! 

I will leave it at that.  

I don't support the current legislative enforced rules and the way football programs in particular have subsequently used them, but the fact of the matter just about every program that is experiencing success on the football field is doing it! So I'm like you I have a hard time swallowing the castigation of Mandarin as well. Without the rules as they are today, you have at least at 7A & 8A private schools as your state title teams this year......that is a fact! That in the end gets us right back to the original compliant prior to the rule change, that private football programs have an unfair advantage over public football programs.

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12 minutes ago, FL_HS_football said:

I don't support the current legislative enforced rules and the way football programs in particular have subsequently used them, but the fact of the matter just about every program that is experiencing success on the football field is doing it! So I'm like you I have a hard time swallowing the castigation of Mandarin as well. Without the rules as they are today, you have at least at 7A & 8A private schools as your state title teams this year......that is a fact! That in the end gets us right back to the original compliant prior to the rule change, that private football programs have an unfair advantage over public football programs.

A private in the middle of nowhere has no serious advantages

 

I will continue to argue the real advantage and disadvantage lies in metro vs rural areas

 

 

Notice that basically every successful private resides in talent rich METROS

 

Also notice that many publics in metros have a far greater pool of talent than the privates that aren't in those same metros

 

Sure you have outliers like Madison County, Columbia, Niceville, ect.  That may have success against larger metros but most of the time a isolated rural school has a significant disadvantage in talent pool compared to a school (public or private) in Jacksonville, Tampa, Orlando, Miami, Fort Lauderdale, ect. 

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1 hour ago, DarterBlue2 said:

Sorry to say this, but I find Old School's castigation of Mandarin's State Title a bit difficult to swallow. Did they have kids transferred in? Certainly. Was this materially different than other state champs? Hardly. The fact they did it without a sustained period of of success is immaterial to the discussion in my opinion. 

They were a good team, period. Would I have done it that way if I were a head coach? Hard to say as I don't know the facts and circumstances surrounding the transfers they got! I don't think it would be my responsibility to tell kids they cannot come to Mandarin if I did not actively recruit them and they just liked what they saw or if family circumstances changed and that led to their attendance.

I will leave it at that.  

Hi Darter,  Please reread my posts.  I've intentionally been careful with my words.  For instance, I stated "And I would say the exact same of any program that won under such circumstances."  This wasn't just about Mandarin.  It just so happened Mandarin was a good example.  Chaminade, too.

I stated "Is it Mandarin's "fault" these fellows wanted to come to school there?  Not necessarily." "Does it mean Mandarin did anything wrong?  No."   I've admitted that the stars may have simply aligned in this case, though I certainly questioned it.

I stated  "You don't have that kind of success that quickly under "natural" circumstances.  If there is nothing unusual about it, what the private schools are doing today must be normal, too."  The gist of my original post was that if a private school won under such circumstances, I believe some would be crying foul.  ...or even some of the traditional public school powerhouses.  Lakeland got one big-name transfer this year and look at the recent discussion about them.   

Could we not say the exact same words you used in the second paragraph of your post to talk about St Thomas Aquinas, Darter.  Bet if you said that, though, there would be those who would debate and insist that STA recruited. 

If there is nothing extraordinary about Mandarin's win, then there is nothing extraordinary about what the private schools are doing today either.  In fact, there's probably nothing questionable about what anyone is doing.  So, maybe all of us, myself included, just need to be quiet and stop questioning any team if everything is "just what everyone else is doing". 

I have questioned and defended both private schools and public schools, and made entire threads recognizing both individual public and private schools.  I don't play favorites.  Have I questioned the circumstances surrounding Mandarin's win.  Absolutely.  I've done the same with Chaminade, probably even to a greater extent. 

I struggle today with drawing the line today between "normal" and what is worthy of questioning.  "Normal" has been a moving target over the years.  This past weekend, we had two teams in the state finals(Mandarin and Chaminade) who had major aspects of their offense plugged in by somewhat recent transfers.  They would have been drastically different units without them.  Sure, most of the teams today have some transfers playing, but the better teams are not reliant on them to that extent.  ST Thomas, Lakeland and Cardinal Gibbons all had transfers playing, but their big offensive weapons were not recent transfers.

So, is the next step a state champion whose entire offense is transfers from the current and past season?  And next a team whose entire offense AND defense are all such such transfers?  And then maybe one day a team whose entire starting lineup all transferred in the current season.  At what point does someone say, "Hey, wait a minute guys."  Think what I describe could never happen?  I would not have believed what is happening today if you had told me 30 years ago, so believe it can happen, and will.

That's all I was doing here, folks.  ...a reality check.  I think it is healthy to question in a respectful way, and I tried to do so.  I am afraid if we stop questioning and the the default to all becomes "everyone else is doing it," before we know it, things will become that much more extreme.  That is partly how we got to where we are now.  We've become desensitized to the madness.      

At the end of the day, nobody is sticking a gun to anyone's head to play an athlete.  As a coach, I am accountable for my actions, and that includes being questioned about them.  As I said in another post, if you want me to respect your point of view, respect mine.  And my POV is that it is unsportsmanlike at the hs level to play so many transfers that it isn't really even your team any more.  If one disagrees fine.  But respect my POV, too, and don't assume I am being mean or berating you by questioning.  There has to be some balance.  For those who struggle with boundaries, we need people to throw a red flag sometimes and say, "whatch doin there, buddy?"  If not, forget hs football as it is and let's just play 7-on-7.   

 

 

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1 hour ago, FL_HS_football said:

I don't support the current legislative enforced rules and the way football programs in particular have subsequently used them, but the fact of the matter just about every program that is experiencing success on the football field is doing it! So I'm like you I have a hard time swallowing the castigation of Mandarin as well. Without the rules as they are today, you have at least at 7A & 8A private schools as your state title teams this year......that is a fact! That in the end gets us right back to the original compliant prior to the rule change, that private football programs have an unfair advantage over public football programs.

Fair enough.  But why do so many not say a word when certain traditional private and public schools powers are publicly thrown under the bus?  I don't see too many people coming to the defense of St Thomas when they are accused of working outside the boundaries.  Or how about folks who go out of their way to question the practices of certain schools, but not others? 

There's clearly a double standard.  I see people throwing flags all the time without facts.  If Mandarin should not be questioned, neither should St Thomas, Cardinal Gibbons, Lakeland, etc  If "everyone's doin it," then we should treat everyone the same and give everyone the same benefit of the doubt.  If everyone's not doin it the same, it should be fair game to question, as long as it is done in a respectful way.

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11 hours ago, FL_HS_football said:

Joe Kinnan came to Manatee prior to the 1981 season:

1st season - 1st round playoff loss

2nd season - did not qualify for the playoffs

3rd season - won the state 4A title (Florida's largest classification)

Did Manatee have a 2-8 record, or worse, the year before they won the title and a history of losing seasons in the 70's?

Let's assume they did.  Here's the difference between then and now, IMO.  There was not nearly the level of transferring going on 40 years ago.  In the 70's, some schools weren't even completely integrated.

I am much more likely to attribute a drastic turnaround back then to great coaching and strength/conditioning than I am today.  Coaches then generally had to work with what they had(Bradenton was far from metro in the 70's so had a limited talent pool) and make gains the hard way.  They couldn't rely upon an influx of transfers.  Is that a guarantee that there was no funny business.  No. 

But I am much more skeptical of drastic changes today, especially when a new coach arrives and a program skyrockets.  That might be a bit unfair to those geniuses out there who can pull it off, but for every one of those there are four guys doing it via questionable means, so it causes one to be skeptical.

If it was that easy, we would see a lot more drastic changes in programs today.  Possibly Joe was just in the right place at the right time.  It took Coach Castle and Coach Smith many years to win a state title.  

 

 

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11 hours ago, LakelandGator said:

This might help OldSchool

1. Sheffield started all last season at previous school, saw an opening at Lakeland's center position this year, or so he thought. End up playing only when the running clocks started. Bad move on his part, but he got a ring out of it.

2. Rodman, see previous memo. Not sure how much he played at Victory but should have stayed there. Had an INT in a runninng clock game against Bartow's reserves. But he was lights out on KO return team. 

3. DB's Ware/ Nixon played so little at LGibson why stay as seniors? Add to the fact that Lakeland's entire secondary graduated last year, so they also saw possible playing time as seniors for a good team. And they played, with some good coaching. But if anyone's thinks those two are All-Stars, get some professional help. 

4. Martin and his folks were LIED to by LG staff and left the school. I will leave it at that. He fits the All-Star category now, he didn't 4 months ago.

5. Summerall= All Star

6. Ski McWilliams has been zoned for Lakeland HS all his life, and yes he was key to winning this year. Without him they go 13-1

7. Crawford and Hohentaner's family moved to the area 2 years ago as Greg already stated. Crawford played "behind" the leading tackler last year who graduated. He got his opportunity to play this year and did well. Lakeland has a soph LB behind him who is even better.

Bottom line there are some people on this site who intentionally put out innuendos and misleading info.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, and you're one of them. You even left out a handful of the transfers off your list. People like you is why nobody even respects the programs who receive all of the transfers. You try to make a case for every single kid because you know in the back of your heart that it's just wrong. It's wrong primarily because of the way it is happening. Coaches from said schools are calling kids, are calling parents/grandparents. Ask anybody from around the Lakeland area and it's always "oh yea, they're trying to call us to get us to transfer" 

Football is a dying sport, and this is doing nothing but fast forwarding how long it'll be around in the same capacity that it currently is. It's one of the main reason I got out of coaching years ago and moved up north. And no, it is not like this at other places. It is primarily happening in the state of Florida because just like everything else, this state does everything backwards. 

I'm all for good conversation, but please don't try and make an excuse for the wrongdoing of coaches. I'm happy for them that they won, but you know good and well that those kids don't appreciate the title as much as they would if they had stayed at their home school and competed for a championship there. Every one of those guys that you listed were starters or were going to be starters at their previous school and they moved because it's the "IN" thing to do. Give me a break @LakelandGator

Everybody in the Lakeland area knows that the ONLY reason they won is because of the transfers. Without those transfers they're an 8-2 team with maybe a round or two in the playoffs. 

It's not just Lakeland though, it's a ton of other schools too. I guess it's just the way it is now though. It's sad. 

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2 hours ago, NewEraFball said:

Yes, and you're one of them. You even left out a handful of the transfers off your list. People like you is why nobody even respects the programs who receive all of the transfers. You try to make a case for every single kid because you know in the back of your heart that it's just wrong. It's wrong primarily because of the way it is happening. Coaches from said schools are calling kids, are calling parents/grandparents. Ask anybody from around the Lakeland area and it's always "oh yea, they're trying to call us to get us to transfer" 

Football is a dying sport, and this is doing nothing but fast forwarding how long it'll be around in the same capacity that it currently is. It's one of the main reason I got out of coaching years ago and moved up north. And no, it is not like this at other places. It is primarily happening in the state of Florida because just like everything else, this state does everything backwards. 

I'm all for good conversation, but please don't try and make an excuse for the wrongdoing of coaches. I'm happy for them that they won, but you know good and well that those kids don't appreciate the title as much as they would if they had stayed at their home school and competed for a championship there. Every one of those guys that you listed were starters or were going to be starters at their previous school and they moved because it's the "IN" thing to do. Give me a break @LakelandGator

Everybody in the Lakeland area knows that the ONLY reason they won is because of the transfers. Without those transfers they're an 8-2 team with maybe a round or two in the playoffs. 

It's not just Lakeland though, it's a ton of other schools too. I guess it's just the way it is now though. It's sad. 

"It's primarily because of the way it is happening."  I wonder how many of the public school coaches out there playing games today criticized private schools for pushing the limits in the past.  ...irony.

 

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1 hour ago, OldSchoolLion said:

"It's primarily because of the way it is happening."  I wonder how many of the public school coaches out there playing games today criticized private schools for pushing the limits in the past.  ...irony.

 

You initiating this as a topic, caused me look further into the facts.  I want to state this, I've given some of the Manatee faithful hell about transfers.......primarily because I'm all about building a sound foundation from the ground up. The new HBC at Manatee will be in his 3rd next year, and he's done a much better job at this than the prior HBC with this.....as it is however Manatee had 5 transfers on its varsity squad this past season (that's been just about the norm the last few years too), and that upset me and I've been vocal about it each season. Now however what I'm seeing going on with the likes of Lakeland, Mandarin, Armwood, and Northwestern................Manatee pales in comparison to these programs! What these programs are doing with the number of transfers coming into the program is absurd in my opinion, but its obviously yielding results for them. 

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