Mandarin Situation Is Disappointing

[DarterBlue2]

32 minutes ago, FL_HS_football said:

You initiating this as a topic, caused me look further into the facts.  I want to state this, I've given some of the Manatee faithful hell about transfers.......primarily because I'm all about building a sound foundation from the ground up. The new HBC at Manatee will be in his 3rd next year, and he's done a much better job at this than the prior HBC with this.....as it is however Manatee had 5 transfers on its varsity squad this past season (that's been just about the norm the last few years too), and that upset me and I've been vocal about it each season. Now however what I'm seeing going on with the likes of Lakeland, Mandarin, Armwood, and Northwestern................Manatee pales in comparison to these programs! What these programs are doing with the number of transfers coming into the program is absurd in my opinion, but its obviously yielding results for them. 

The problem is we have become a short term society and damn the long term consequences. What Mandarin did or benefited from is what much more than half of the dominant programs over the past ten years or so have been doing whether public or private.

Back in the 1980s and 1990s there was much more variety from year to year in the teams that made the state championships precisely because recruiting was not rampant. Today, most programs see it as an essential tool to be successful. Of course it corrodes camaraderie and team chemistry. But in the quest for glory such things be damned I suppose . .. I just got annoyed with Old School because he chose to single out Mandarin ignoring the rest on the pretext that they were already successful programs and, therefore, get a pass ignoring the fact that recruiting has played a major role in the success of many of them. 

[OldSchoolLion]

23 minutes ago, FL_HS_football said:

You initiating this as a topic, caused me look further into the facts.  I want to state this, I've given some of the Manatee faithful hell about transfers.......primarily because I'm all about building a sound foundation from the ground up. The new HBC at Manatee will be in his 3rd next year, and he's done a much better job at this than the prior HBC with this.....as it is however Manatee had 5 transfers on its varsity squad this past season (that's been just about the norm the last few years too), and that upset me and I've been vocal about it each season. Now however what I'm seeing going on with the likes of Lakeland, Mandarin, Armwood, and Northwestern................Manatee pales in comparison to these programs! What these programs are doing with the number of transfers coming into the program is absurd in my opinion, but its obviously yielding results for them. 

...a couple points, and am not defending anyone by saying this.  It appears some schools in the larger metro areas are getting a substantial number of transfers each years.  Some of these transfer players are not particularly good and it is quite possible they moved on their own accord without any prompting...and some possibly for the "right" reasons.  When I look at player who transfers to a school in his senior year and he has no reasonable shot of cracking the starting lineup, I have to think there might be reasons other than football for the move.  And I've come across a number of such cases over the past year.

We need to be careful when we look at the numbers.   There is a lot of transferring taking place that has nothing to do with football.  In other words, it's just the mindset of some parents/students today.  Some kids are compelled to transfer because someone transferred into their school and knocked them out of the starting lineup.  That's a system problem, and coaches cannot help it if that player comes knocking.  Sure the coach has control over whether he supplants a kid on his roster now.

 Just because a school gets a fair number of transfers each year, we cannot automatically assume that is because they are actively recruiting(though they may be),  and we cannot assume they are all impact players.  Many of the players who transfer are not. I've done a thread on this in the past and the number of FBS-level players who are transferring in any one year is relatively small compared to the entire population of kids playing football around the state.  Thus, just because a team has gotten a lot transfers in one year, we need to look deeper at those transfers before anyone claims a team would not have not a state title without them.  

Am trying to be practical here.  Ideally we would have little-to-no transfers.  But it is what it is.  So, rather than just throw everyone under the bus when someone is winning big, we need to do our homework for each case in order to judge those programs that have an inordinate amount of star power coming in each year.

[OldSchoolLion]

57 minutes ago, DarterBlue2 said:

The problem is we have become a short term society and damn the long term consequences. What Mandarin did or benefited from is what much more than half of the dominant programs over the past ten years or so have been doing whether public or private.

Back in the 1980s and 1990s there was much more variety from year to year in the teams that made the state championships precisely because recruiting was not rampant. Today, most programs see it as an essential tool to be successful. Of course it corrodes camaraderie and team chemistry. But in the quest for glory such things be damned I suppose . .. I just got annoyed with Old School because he chose to single out Mandarin ignoring the rest on the pretext that they were already successful programs and, therefore, get a pass ignoring the fact that recruiting has played a major role in the success of many of them. 

I hope you know I have nothing but respect for you, Darter, and I respect your feelings  I publicly questioned the rather meteoric rise of American Heritage Plantation, Chaminade-Madonna and Cardinal Gibbons in the past.  So, questioning Mandarin is not  inconsistent with what I have done in the past.  

That is your perception above, Darter. The word "ignore" is an interesting choice, because I have scrutinized the traditional powers and shared the information as much as anyone on here in the past year.  Good Lord, some folks wanted to chop my head off in the past for raising questions about St Thomas.  

My point about Columbus having paid its dues was meant as follows.  Columbus, as well as a number of older programs like Northwestern and Carol City, have demonstrated an ability to win consistently, even before the days of mass transfers.  Chris Merritt is one of the most tenured, successful coaches in the state.  Level the playing the field in terms of transfers and give him a bunch of kids anywhere, and they will likely be competitive.  

Right or wrong, I am much less suspect of programs like that than I am a team that seems to come out of nowhere.  Is that fair?  No. But it's reality in the world we are living today.  40 years ago, when a team made a quick turnaround, it likely wasn't because they were loading up with D1 talent.  I have demonstrated in threads how programs with substantial coaching turnover underperform, ie Deerfield Beach.  So, when anyone bucks that trend, like Mandarin, it makes me want to take a closer look.  

So, do the traditional powers recruit?  Maybe so.  Are they worthy of scrutiny?  Sure.  Is my radar going to activate when Columbus wins a state title?  Recognizing how long they have been trying to do so and their tradition of winning..not nearly as strongly when a team like Mandarin wins.  Just being honest.  Does that mean that Northwestern and Lakeland didn't do something incredibly scandalous this past season?  No. But I am convinced those schools could be very competitive, transfers or not.  Cannot say the same for certain "upstart programs."

      

 

 

  

 

 

[DarterBlue2]

18 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

My point about Columbus having paid its dues was meant as follows.  Columbus, as well as a number of older programs like Northwestern and Carol City, have demonstrated an ability to win consistently, even before the days of mass transfers.  Chris Merritt is one of the most tenured, successful coaches in the state.  Level the playing the field in terms of transfers and give him a bunch of kids anywhere, and they will likely be competitive.  

Like Bishop Moore in Orlando, Columbus has an excellent coaching staff. Similar to Bishop Moore, a certain number of kids do come in to play football. However, historically, neither school has made a state championship an over arching priority. Thus, both programs (Columbus to a greater extent and for longer) have produced in their respective regions good, competitive teams without going in the direction of AHP and St. Thomas. This may or may not be changing at Columbus, time will tell.

With that said, I don't deny the fact that Mandarin got several quality transfers (it was more quality in my opinion that quantity per se). However, it seems to me that they hit pay dirt with one particular player, the QB, Carson Beck. For if Apopka, West Orange or Dr. Phillips for that matter, let alone Wekiva, had this kid this past season and made the necessary adjustments to their offense to accommodate him, I dare say any of those teams would have won the state title this year with what the other talent they had.

He is that good at this stage of his high school career. The other players that transferred in just cemented the title for them.

[OldSchoolLion]

On 12/9/2018 at 11:58 AM, FL_HS_football said:

Most if not all were either starters or saw significant playing minutes Friday night

1.)    Lloyd Summerall 4* DE – was at 2 different High Schools before coming to Lakeland this season (Kingdom Prep School and last season at Auburndale HS last season)

2.)    Dywonski McWilliams QB – was at Jenkins HS last year

3.)    Deyavie Hammond  4* OT- Was at IMG last season

4.)    Jaharie Martin LB - was at Lake Gibson last season

5.)    Chris Howard WR – was at Lake Gibson before transferring to Lakeland

6.)    Khalil Crawford LB – was at Prattville HS before transferring to Lakeland

7.)    Tony Ware DB – was at Lake Gibson before transferring into Lakeland

8.)    Teshaun Nixon DB – was at Lake Gibson before transferring into Lakeland

9.)    Willie Lampkin OG – was at Mulberry HS before transferring into Lakeland

10.)  Tayshawn Rodman DB – was at Victory Christian before transferring into Lakeland

11.) Jace Hohenthaner K – was at Land O Lakes HS before transferring into Lakeland

12.)  Tyler Sheffield OC – was at Victory Christian before transferring into Lakeland

 13.) Naveli Dixson OG – was at Tenoroc HS before transferring into Lakeland this season

Disclaimer..I have no allegiance to Lakeland, so could care less how the chips fall.  If all of the players listed above transferred in last season, I would absolutely raise my eyebrows, but that is not the case.  From the list you provided, 6 transferred in this season and 7 last season.  Those are not extraordinary seasonal transfer numbers for one of the traditional FL powerhouse teams(if they were all 3 and 4-star I might say differently, but that's not the case).  

Last season, Lakeland got one 2-star player.  That's nothing to write home about.  This year they got two 4-star players, and one was returning to Lakeland from IMG after playing at Lakeland his freshman and sophomore years, so some extenuating circumstances. 

This is why one cannot simply look at raw numbers of transfers.  It's quality versus quantity.  If Lakeland is loaded with FBS talent, most of it did not come from their transfers over the past two years. As best I can tell, 10/13 players are not even rated.  I bet there are schools with lesser reputations than Lakeland who got more than two, 3-star or up players over the past two seasons. 

I will agree that in total, these transfers may have made a big difference, but the same could be said for a lot of schools because a lot of schools are getting a substantial numbers of unrated transfers each year.

 

Transferred in for this season:

1.)    Lloyd Summerall 4* DE  

2.)    Dywonski McWilliams QB 

3.)    Deyavie Hammond  4* OT 

4.)    Jaharie Martin LB

9.)    Willie Lampkin OG 

12.)  Tyler Sheffield OC 

 

Transferred in for last season:

5.)    Chris Howard WR 

6.)    Khalil Crawford  2* LB

7.)    Tony Ware DB 

8.)    Teshaun Nixon DB 

10.)  Tayshawn Rodman DB 

11.) Jace Hohenthaner K 

13.) Naveli Dixson OG

[Miamidade92]

On 12/9/2018 at 11:13 AM, OldSchoolLion said:

In case there is any question, I don't pimp any schools or parts of the state, and am neutral in the public vs private debate.  None of my comments should be taken as having an undercurrent of favoritism.  I call things as I see them.  I have no ties to Columbus or Mandarin.  Thought it was a great game and the better team won last night.  That's not the issue, though.

"But the weakest of all arguments is "They have no playoff history" or even better... "Oh, but they paid their dues..." Like it is a right of passage or something.  WTF?"  I think you missed my point.  I mentioned Columbus' history not to imply that in some way they deserved to win.  I did so to paint a picture of how folks would have likely reacted if a private school had beaten a public school under the exact same circumstances.  I can hear the moaning now about how _____missed out on a state title because some upstart private school beat them.  

When schools like Oxbridge and University "popped up," there were a lot of tough questions asked...and rightfully so.  For years private schools have been intensely scrutinized.  Public schools, including Mandarin, may need to learn how it feels now.  Not fun, huh?  Well, it probably wasn't for them either.

Please give me the name of another public school in the upper classes that has done anything like what Mandardin did this year in terms of rising to prominence in such short order and coming off a 2-8 season to win a title.  Questioning it is not necessarily a matter of nitpicking or being butt hurt.  Anyone who knows FL hs football over the past 50 years knows those circumstances are extremely unusual.  Does it mean Mandarin did anything wrong?  No.  Would even the most neutral person ask "How did that happen?"  I think that's reasonable, so Mandarin folks should not be butt hurt that someone is bringing this situation to light.   This thread is not just about Mandarin.  There are much broader implications of the discussion.

"Almost every title winning team ever can be narrowed down to a handful of players making the difference and I bet the lion's share of those arrived at their schools due to similar situations."  You may well be right, sir.  Please give us names of players and details of their transfers to prove that point.  Until I see facts, I don't make such assumptions out of fairness to those programs.  I happen to know that Cardinal Gibbons had only 2 transfers that started this year because I took the time to research.  Surprising, huh?

"Maybe all this is just that Mandarin pissed in the Wheaties of all the peeps downstate who believe that it is some divine intervention that large school titles are theirs and theirs alone.  Welp, that changed last night.  Time to get over it."

That is not the case with me, sir.  I have actually done entire threads on North FL football, including the dominance of North FL over other parts of the state back in the 1970's and 1980's.  Not everyone who raises issues has a hidden agenda. 

The next time somebody raises questions about a program, I'll be watching for you, Shredstar, to come to their defense and tell the questioner to knock it off and stop the sour grapes.  If what happened at Mandarin this year is not worthy of objective, honest scrutiny, I cannot think of much that is.  

 

Miami High almost did it last year. Sedrick Irvin took over the program for one year  They went from doormats to one win from the state championship game last year losing to Atlantic in the semis. They lost their coach and they dropped back down to 4 wins this year. Irvin jumped to Southridge and is at it again. Unfortunately this will become more common and I think high school recruiting is never going away. It has always been around, but in the shadows, now it's out in the open. I wouldn't be surprised if high schools start to get in trouble for recruiting players with cash. There was one five star player here in Miami that was supposedly "bought" and transferred to a rival school after spending his first three years at one school. It was so out in the open that it was even discussed on local sports talk radio. 

Another instance, Hialeah High this year went 9-1 and made it to the playoffs. They are a perennial 4-5 win team. Coincidence? They were led by some promising freshmen. I'd be shocked if those freshmen stayed at that school another year or two when you have Central, Northwestern, Jackson, Booker T, and Carol City within 15 miles. 

[Bamarod]

On 12/9/2018 at 12:48 PM, skyway said:

Also missing DE A.J. Thomas who was a RB/DL at Bartow as a Soph.

I don't mind talented players targeting good programs they want to end up at. But, I don't like all of the transferring around from one public school in a city to another. It's a bad trend. I'm actually glad Brenden Gant stayed at Kathleen this year. He obviously would have helped Lakeland. And, I'm sure he's pals with some of the players and they probably hoped he'd come over. 

That said, it is entirely widespread now. At present, I don't think it is fair to get mad at any schools benefiting from this trend. Lakeland's last three playoff opponents all had several high profile players who had previously played elsewhere. What needs to happen is the trend of the best players deciding to join forces and thus deplete the other teams needs to become unfashionable. Heap praise on those like Gant who stay put.

This has been the problem in Brevard County for a decade. Cocoa up until this year had double digit transfers-in every year. For a program that only lists 35 or so players, were talking a third of roster. It changed with Head Coach Wilkerson leaving this year and the result was the worst defense the Cocoa program has had in at least a dozen years. Rockledge players stayed home and the school had its best team in years. We will see what happens this next off-season, hopefully everyone  stays or transfers don't all go to one program.  

[DisabledAccount]

48 minutes ago, Bamarod said:

This has been the problem in Brevard County for a decade. Cocoa up until this year had double digit transfers-in every year. For a program that only lists 35 or so players, were talking a third of roster. It changed with Head Coach Wilkerson leaving this year and the result was the worst defense the Cocoa program has had in at least a dozen years. Rockledge players stayed home and the school had its best team in years. We will see what happens this next off-season, hopefully everyone  stays or transfers don't all go to one program.  

Doubt cocoa was only one getting transfers over there