Mandarin Situation Is Disappointing

[OldSchoolLion]

Not since Champagnat did it in 2013 has a 2-win team turned things around and won a state title the following season.  And I remember the whispers of skepticism that accompanied that accomplishment, ie private school recruiting.  Well, now Mandarin has now done the same.  I was aware that one of the top qb's in the state, Carson Beck,  had transferred in this season, but just today learned that 3 of their wide receivers all did the same this season or last.  Senior Darien Oxendine came over from Menendez this season.  Senior Demario Douglas did the same last season, and senior Kris Mitchell transferred from Bolles (isn't that ironic) last season. 

After watching them this evening, it's pretty obvious that Mandarin's offense would likely be nowhere close to their current level of performance without those 4 players.  I poked fun at Chaminade for having an "instant wide receiver corps" this year due to transfers, but at least their qb has been there the past 3 seasons.  This situation at Mandarin takes it to another level with Beck coming over. 

Is it Mandarin's "fault" these fellows wanted to come to school there?  Not necessarily.  Should this situation take away from their state title?  Not necessarily.  If this was a private school, would some folks be jumping up and down about the situation and pointing fingers?  You bet. 

Ironically, the public school had the edge tonight due to transfers.  Columbus is a team that has paid their dues over the years and never won a title in over 50 years.  Mandarin is an upstart program that has historically had little playoff success. How many times has the shoe been on the other foot with a private school skyrocketing to prominence and denying a public school that has paid its dues? 

It's about time the shoe is on the other foot, right?  Well, maybe so.  But if we are going to take that position, we have to start admitting that the argument that private schools still have the edge is losing its ability to hold water.  If we are going to continue questioning private schools about transfers/recruiting when they win state titles under unusual circumstances, I think it is only fair to do the same for public schools.  I've called out Chaminade this year and now that I learn about Mandarin am doing the same. 

Sorry, but it is highly suspect when a program goes from 1 playoff win in its first 25 years and numerous losing seasons to winning an 8A title in such short order.  You don't have that kind of success that quickly under "natural" circumstances.  If there is nothing unusual about it, what the private schools are doing today must be normal, too.  

I am disappointed...not necessarily at the Mandarin football program, but the circumstances under which it won....with kids that spent a limited amount of their playing time there.  No way they win an 8A title without those 4.  And I would say the exact same of any program that won under such circumstances.  I think most of our powerhouse programs today are not winning titles simply because of transfers.  But occasionally we get situations like those at Chaminade and Mandarin where one questions if they could have won without them.        

 

 

 

 

 

[gatorman-uf]

Darian Oxendine had to bypass St. Augustine, Ponte Vedra, and Bartram Trail to go to Mandarin. All closer to his original school (37 miles away), all with tremendous success over the past few years. it seems weird that Mandarin would be his first choice. It also seems weird considering that at Menendez that he was a starting RB and occasional QB to switch to WR in his senior year. Like how does that conversation with a coach go, "Come to my school, but that position that you have been starring in for the past 3 years, we aren't going to play you in it, and we are going to move you to a completely new position, and if you do we will win a state championship."

As for Beck, what if he was originally zoned for Mandarin and chose Providence. Is it recruiting, money, or other issues to choose to go back? People forget that private schools cost money, so is choosing not to go to a private school might be a family decision. Additionally, with the coach of Mandarin being the same guy who coached Derrick Henry (Yulee) maybe, he liked the Bama connection. 

Same with Kris Mitchell ($26,190 tuition per year at Bolles). So in 2 years, his family saves 52K, is it recruiting or realizing the money isn't worth it? Heck, that pays for UF's tuition. 

Again, I assume these kids are zoned for the schools.

 

[FL_HS_football]

Did you not hear the broadcasters for last night's Lakeland/STA title game talk about all the players that transferred into Lakeland this year? Riverview's QB was at Cardinal Mooney last year, that offense without him would not had taken them to the semi-finals this year and then we had the post about Madison and the whole charter school concept, The Venice QB was at a different school last year as well...................I dont like what is happening to high school football one bit, but the FHSAA ignored for years what the privates like STA were doing to tilt the playing field to their advantage......and rather than fix it got the state legislators involved and now we have what we have and it is what it is. Dont like that you've decided to single out Mandarin when every other public school including the likes of Lakeland did much the same....................I'm just glad the private schools are at least in some instances having to take heaping doses of their own medicine!

[Nulli Secundus]

1 hour ago, OldSchoolLion said:

Not since Champagnat did it in 2013 has a 2-win team turned things around and won a state title the following season.  And I remember the whispers of skepticism that accompanied that accomplishment, ie private school recruiting.  Well, now Mandarin has now done the same.  I was aware that one of the top qb's in the state, Carson Beck,  had transferred in this season, but just today learned that 3 of their wide receivers all did the same this season or last.  Senior Darien Oxendine came over from Menendez this season.  Senior Demario Douglas did the same last season, and senior Kris Mitchell transferred from Bolles (isn't that ironic) last season. 

After watching them this evening, it's pretty obvious that Mandarin's offense would likely be nowhere close to their current level of performance without those 4 players.  I poked fun at Chaminade for having an "instant wide receiver corps" this year due to transfers, but at least their qb has been there the past 3 seasons.  This situation at Mandarin takes it to another level with Beck coming over. 

Is it Mandarin's "fault" these fellows wanted to come to school there?  Not necessarily.  Should this situation take away from their state title?  Not necessarily.  If this was a private school, would some folks be jumping up and down about the situation and pointing fingers?  You bet. 

Ironically, the public school had the edge tonight due to transfers.  Columbus is a team that has paid their dues over the years and never won a title in over 50 years.  Mandarin is an upstart program that has historically had little playoff success. How many times has the shoe been on the other foot with a private school skyrocketing to prominence and denying a public school that has paid its dues? 

It's about time the shoe is on the other foot, right?  Well, maybe so.  But if we are going to take that position, we have to start admitting that the argument that private schools still have the edge is losing its ability to hold water.  If we are going to continue questioning private schools about transfers/recruiting when they win state titles under unusual circumstances, I think it is only fair to do the same for public schools.  I've called out Chaminade this year and now that I learn about Mandarin am doing the same. 

Sorry, but it is highly suspect when a program goes from 1 playoff win in its first 25 years and numerous losing seasons to winning an 8A title in such short order.  You don't have that kind of success that quickly under "natural" circumstances.  If there is nothing unusual about it, what the private schools are doing today must be normal, too.  

I am disappointed...not necessarily at the Mandarin football program, but the circumstances under which it won....with kids that spent a limited amount of their playing time there.  No way they win an 8A title without those 4.  And I would say the exact same of any program that won under such circumstances.  I think most of our powerhouse programs today are not winning titles simply because of transfers.  But occasionally we get situations like those at Chaminade and Mandarin where one questions if they could have won without them.        

 

 

 

 

 

 

50 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

Darian Oxendine had to bypass St. Augustine, Ponte Vedra, and Bartram Trail to go to Mandarin. All closer to his original school (37 miles away), all with tremendous success over the past few years. it seems weird that Mandarin would be his first choice. It also seems weird considering that at Menendez that he was a starting RB and occasional QB to switch to WR in his senior year. Like how does that conversation with a coach go, "Come to my school, but that position that you have been starring in for the past 3 years, we aren't going to play you in it, and we are going to move you to a completely new position, and if you do we will win a state championship."

As for Beck, what if he was originally zoned for Mandarin and chose Providence. Is it recruiting, money, or other issues to choose to go back? People forget that private schools cost money, so is choosing not to go to a private school might be a family decision. Additionally, with the coach of Mandarin being the same guy who coached Derrick Henry (Yulee) maybe, he liked the Bama connection. 

Same with Kris Mitchell ($26,190 tuition per year at Bolles). So in 2 years, his family saves 52K, is it recruiting or realizing the money isn't worth it? Heck, that pays for UF's tuition. 

Again, I assume these kids are zoned for the schools.

 

 

48 minutes ago, FL_HS_football said:

Did you not hear the broadcasters for last night's Lakeland/STA title game talk about all the players that transferred into Lakeland this year? Riverview's QB was at Cardinal Mooney last year, that offense without him would not had taken them to the semi-finals this year and then we had the post about Madison and the whole charter school concept, The Venice QB was at a different school last year as well...................I dont like what is happening to high school football one bit, but the FHSAA ignored for years what the privates like STA were doing to tilt the playing field to their advantage......and rather than fix it got the state legislators involved and now we have what we have and it is what it is. Dont like that you've decided to single out Mandarin when every other public school including the likes of Lakeland did much the same....................I'm just glad the private schools are at least in some instances having to take heaping doses of their own medicine!

Wait for it....

[shredstar]

Mandarin is one of three magnet high schools within DCPS, the others being Paxon and Stanton.  Anyone in the county is free to go there as long as there is a spot open for them and they meet their requirements.

[DarterBlue2]

8 hours ago, OldSchoolLion said:

Not since Champagnat did it in 2013 has a 2-win team turned things around and won a state title the following season.  And I remember the whispers of skepticism that accompanied that accomplishment, ie private school recruiting.  Well, now Mandarin has now done the same.  I was aware that one of the top qb's in the state, Carson Beck,  had transferred in this season, but just today learned that 3 of their wide receivers all did the same this season or last.  Senior Darien Oxendine came over from Menendez this season.  Senior Demario Douglas did the same last season, and senior Kris Mitchell transferred from Bolles (isn't that ironic) last season. 

After watching them this evening, it's pretty obvious that Mandarin's offense would likely be nowhere close to their current level of performance without those 4 players.  I poked fun at Chaminade for having an "instant wide receiver corps" this year due to transfers, but at least their qb has been there the past 3 seasons.  This situation at Mandarin takes it to another level with Beck coming over. 

Is it Mandarin's "fault" these fellows wanted to come to school there?  Not necessarily.  Should this situation take away from their state title?  Not necessarily.  If this was a private school, would some folks be jumping up and down about the situation and pointing fingers?  You bet. 

Ironically, the public school had the edge tonight due to transfers.  Columbus is a team that has paid their dues over the years and never won a title in over 50 years.  Mandarin is an upstart program that has historically had little playoff success. How many times has the shoe been on the other foot with a private school skyrocketing to prominence and denying a public school that has paid its dues? 

It's about time the shoe is on the other foot, right?  Well, maybe so.  But if we are going to take that position, we have to start admitting that the argument that private schools still have the edge is losing its ability to hold water.  If we are going to continue questioning private schools about transfers/recruiting when they win state titles under unusual circumstances, I think it is only fair to do the same for public schools.  I've called out Chaminade this year and now that I learn about Mandarin am doing the same. 

Sorry, but it is highly suspect when a program goes from 1 playoff win in its first 25 years and numerous losing seasons to winning an 8A title in such short order.  You don't have that kind of success that quickly under "natural" circumstances.  If there is nothing unusual about it, what the private schools are doing today must be normal, too.  

I am disappointed...not necessarily at the Mandarin football program, but the circumstances under which it won....with kids that spent a limited amount of their playing time there.  No way they win an 8A title without those 4.  And I would say the exact same of any program that won under such circumstances.  I think most of our powerhouse programs today are not winning titles simply because of transfers.  But occasionally we get situations like those at Chaminade and Mandarin where one questions if they could have won without them.        

 

 

 

 

 

Old School, I am not going to comment on the rights and wrongs of the Mandarin situation. However, I will comment of the state of high school football in Florida (nationally is probably not much different though I don't know enough to know this with certainty). Regardless of whether you are a public school or a private school, the perceived way to win a state title in almost all of the divisions is the recruit the talent of other schools. In the past, private schools could do this much more effectively than public schools did. After all, they were never constrained by boundaries and financially as well as ethically were constrained only by their budgets and overall philosophy towards athletics vis a viz academics. 

Today, with the state legislature changing Florida's statutes to accommodate open boundaries, public schools that so chose, particularly those in high density population areas (Dade, Fort Lauderdale, Palm Beach County, Greater Orlando, Tampa, and Greater Jacksonville),  can also build sports dynasties. This certainly has the effect of making the path to a state championship or a finals appearance easy. So, in a sense, I can't fault those that take this path. It is not as if Mandarin was the only public school to do this. For I would have to be a fool to believe that Lakeland, Miami Northwestern or if they had made it, Wekiva and Carol City, consisted of all home grown talent. 

The problem is that by certain schools doing this, it takes the interest out of the game to some degree and almost certainly has contributed to the decline in attendance at the State Championships. If I am Baker High School what pleasure do I take from being second to an all star team? 

In a sense, the trend in athletics mirrors where this country has gone as a nation. We are rapidly heading to third world status with respect to the gap between rich and poor. That this trend manifests itself in football is hardly surprising. 

[OldSchoolLion]

9 hours ago, FL_HS_football said:

Did you not hear the broadcasters for last night's Lakeland/STA title game talk about all the players that transferred into Lakeland this year? Riverview's QB was at Cardinal Mooney last year, that offense without him would not had taken them to the semi-finals this year and then we had the post about Madison and the whole charter school concept, The Venice QB was at a different school last year as well...................I dont like what is happening to high school football one bit, but the FHSAA ignored for years what the privates like STA were doing to tilt the playing field to their advantage......and rather than fix it got the state legislators involved and now we have what we have and it is what it is. Don't like that you've decided to single out Mandarin when every other public school including the likes of Lakeland did much the same....................I'm just glad the private schools are at least in some instances having to take heaping doses of their own medicine!

 

9 hours ago, gatorman-uf said:

Darian Oxendine had to bypass St. Augustine, Ponte Vedra, and Bartram Trail to go to Mandarin. All closer to his original school (37 miles away), all with tremendous success over the past few years. it seems weird that Mandarin would be his first choice. It also seems weird considering that at Menendez that he was a starting RB and occasional QB to switch to WR in his senior year. Like how does that conversation with a coach go, "Come to my school, but that position that you have been starring in for the past 3 years, we aren't going to play you in it, and we are going to move you to a completely new position, and if you do we will win a state championship."

As for Beck, what if he was originally zoned for Mandarin and chose Providence. Is it recruiting, money, or other issues to choose to go back? People forget that private schools cost money, so is choosing not to go to a private school might be a family decision. Additionally, with the coach of Mandarin being the same guy who coached Derrick Henry (Yulee) maybe, he liked the Bama connection. 

Same with Kris Mitchell ($26,190 tuition per year at Bolles). So in 2 years, his family saves 52K, is it recruiting or realizing the money isn't worth it? Heck, that pays for UF's tuition. 

Again, I assume these kids are zoned for the schools.

 

Really appreciate the good discussion so far.  Please note I chose my words carefully in my post.  I did not say Mandarin did anything.  I did raise questions about the circumstances.  Maybe the stars aligned in terms of the kids that were there this year. 

As far as me singling out Mandarin.... let's be honest, if last December the great sage told us you who would win state titles this year, there would be only one shocker on the list.  Most of the other schools playing for state titles this year have proven their ability to build an-house talent long before all of this transfer stuff blew up in our faces.  So, it was a bit of no-brainer for me to say, hmmmm, let's look a little closer at this one(Mandarin).

For many years, when Bolles or ST Thomas would win a state title, people would say "well that's because they recruit."  I hope we are not getting to a point in time where when any team wins a title the default is "well, they must be recruiting and/or getting lots of transfers and/or playing the system."  

I do not make the assumptions that "all schools are doing it," at least not all to the same extent...regardless of whether they are private or public.  I believe it is unfair to do so.  How would we feel if we won an Olympic gold  without performance enhancing drugs and had to constantly hear we were doping?  Well, the schools having great success that are "doing it right" probably feel the same way. 

Just because a school got some transfers does not necessarily mean those specific transfers were critical to their success.  Anytime an FBS-level qb moves to a program, it can make a huge impact.  But as far as other positions....maybe/maybe not depending upon what the program already has in terms of talent.  For example, with Bowman at Lakeland, I think Lakeland would have done just fine  regardless of transfers at that position. 

If any of us is going to point to transfers as a reason for success at a program, I think we owe it to the coaches and players to do some homework to better understand the numbers and impact of those players rather than defaulting to "everyone is doing it."  Sure, I bet most or all of the programs that played for state titles this year got transfers, but how many would have had good/very good programs even without those transfers?.  I bet many of them would.  And I'll make that assumption until I can see facts that make me question. 

 

 

 

 

[shredstar]

7 hours ago, gatorman-uf said:

Darian Oxendine had to bypass St. Augustine, Ponte Vedra, and Bartram Trail to go to Mandarin. All closer to his original school (37 miles away), all with tremendous success over the past few years. it seems weird that Mandarin would be his first choice. It also seems weird considering that at Menendez that he was a starting RB and occasional QB to switch to WR in his senior year. Like how does that conversation with a coach go, "Come to my school, but that position that you have been starring in for the past 3 years, we aren't going to play you in it, and we are going to move you to a completely new position, and if you do we will win a state championship."

As for Beck, what if he was originally zoned for Mandarin and chose Providence. Is it recruiting, money, or other issues to choose to go back? People forget that private schools cost money, so is choosing not to go to a private school might be a family decision. Additionally, with the coach of Mandarin being the same guy who coached Derrick Henry (Yulee) maybe, he liked the Bama connection. 

Same with Kris Mitchell ($26,190 tuition per year at Bolles). So in 2 years, his family saves 52K, is it recruiting or realizing the money isn't worth it? Heck, that pays for UF's tuition. 

Again, I assume these kids are zoned for the schools.

 

 

9 hours ago, OldSchoolLion said:

Not since Champagnat did it in 2013 has a 2-win team turned things around and won a state title the following season.  And I remember the whispers of skepticism that accompanied that accomplishment, ie private school recruiting.  Well, now Mandarin has now done the same.  I was aware that one of the top qb's in the state, Carson Beck,  had transferred in this season, but just today learned that 3 of their wide receivers all did the same this season or last.  Senior Darien Oxendine came over from Menendez this season.  Senior Demario Douglas did the same last season, and senior Kris Mitchell transferred from Bolles (isn't that ironic) last season. 

After watching them this evening, it's pretty obvious that Mandarin's offense would likely be nowhere close to their current level of performance without those 4 players.  I poked fun at Chaminade for having an "instant wide receiver corps" this year due to transfers, but at least their qb has been there the past 3 seasons.  This situation at Mandarin takes it to another level with Beck coming over. 

Is it Mandarin's "fault" these fellows wanted to come to school there?  Not necessarily.  Should this situation take away from their state title?  Not necessarily.  If this was a private school, would some folks be jumping up and down about the situation and pointing fingers?  You bet. 

Ironically, the public school had the edge tonight due to transfers.  Columbus is a team that has paid their dues over the years and never won a title in over 50 years.  Mandarin is an upstart program that has historically had little playoff success. How many times has the shoe been on the other foot with a private school skyrocketing to prominence and denying a public school that has paid its dues? 

It's about time the shoe is on the other foot, right?  Well, maybe so.  But if we are going to take that position, we have to start admitting that the argument that private schools still have the edge is losing its ability to hold water.  If we are going to continue questioning private schools about transfers/recruiting when they win state titles under unusual circumstances, I think it is only fair to do the same for public schools.  I've called out Chaminade this year and now that I learn about Mandarin am doing the same. 

Sorry, but it is highly suspect when a program goes from 1 playoff win in its first 25 years and numerous losing seasons to winning an 8A title in such short order.  You don't have that kind of success that quickly under "natural" circumstances.  If there is nothing unusual about it, what the private schools are doing today must be normal, too.  

I am disappointed...not necessarily at the Mandarin football program, but the circumstances under which it won....with kids that spent a limited amount of their playing time there.  No way they win an 8A title without those 4.  And I would say the exact same of any program that won under such circumstances.  I think most of our powerhouse programs today are not winning titles simply because of transfers.  But occasionally we get situations like those at Chaminade and Mandarin where one questions if they could have won without them.        

 

 

 

 

 

Two of those players above (Mitchell and Douglas) transferred to Mandarin last year before it was known who the coach would even be.  The other two (Beck and Oxendine) were specifically quoted stating that they wanted the opportunity to play in the largest class.  Go look it up in the TU, its there.  Who is going to tell them they can't?  We are not busting at the seams with 8A schools up here.  Currently, there are only two, Mandarin and Sandalwood.  Again, Mandarin is a magnet school.  Anyone can go there.  If you don't like it, then go petition the Legislature to change the rules about counties designating specialty schools.  If you think it was bad before....just wait.  Mandarin returns their QB and loses all of their skill players.  Every skill player with a half a star next to his name within a 100 mile radius is going to try to transfer to Mandarin for next season.  I don't blame them one bit either since the rest of the QB talent in the state leaves a lot to be desired. 

But the weakest of all arguments is "They have no playoff history" or even better... "Oh, but they paid their dues..." Like it is a right of passage or something.  WTF?  So I guess we should just hand them something as a long time achievement award?  Guess what?  Columbus just wasn't good enough when they got to this point, last night or in 2014. Period.  No need to sugar coat.  Find a way to get over the hump.  Mandarin did and they can too.  Maybe their coaches should take a look at why their star studded defense full of players with plenty of Power 5 options was getting shredded by a group of skill players with offers from places like Western Kentucky, FIU, Tennessee-Martin, and the best is that the guy who torched them the worst has no D1 offers at all.  Or how a defense full of zero star guys held their Power 5 bound back in check except for a couple of 30 yd runs in the middle of the field.  By the way, Mandarin was a regional finalist a couple of years ago, so they did have some history.  Definitely a lot more now.  They have only been open since the 90's, so sorry they don't win the longevity award of 50 plus years.  I guess they should have waited until then to begin participating in sports.

As for Mandarin winning without those four, of course they wouldn't have.  Almost every title winning team ever can be narrowed down to a handful of players making the difference and I bet the lion's share of those arrived at their schools due to similar situations.  Hell, Mandarin won more games this year along the I-4 corridor than they did in their own damn stadium.  Maybe all this is just that Mandarin pissed in the Wheaties of all the peeps downstate who believe that it is some divine intervention that large school titles are theirs and theirs alone.  Welp, that changed last night.  Time to get over it.

Both teams played very hard last night and everyone from the Columbus side that I came in contact with was extremely respectful and showed nothing but utmost in class, a rarity in today's world.  Pretty sad when people get butt hurt and have to start nit picking because things aren't going the way they feel they should.

 

 

[Proseteye]

The Florida Legislature Education Bill (HB 7029) was primarily passed to allow any student in the state of Florida to attend whatever school they choose regardless of district assignment. The reasoning behind this bill was to let students, from poorly performing schools, to transfer to better performing schools academically. It was never meant to allow students to transfer for sports only. Since the FHSAA is purely a sports regulating outfit they should simply return to the previous regulations wherein a student involved in sports would have to wait until the following year to participate in sports upon transferring from one school to another. This would also apply to private schools. A student could still transfer for academic reasons but the one year sports ban would still apply. Simply, this would return HS football to what it was meant to be and that is students from the community engaged in physical competition against other schools from their respective community.  What we currently have now is a few super teams bolstered by a multitude of incoming transfers every year. IMO this is not what HS competitive sports was envisioned to be.

[DisabledAccount]

2 minutes ago, shredstar said:

 

Two of those players above (Mitchell and Douglas) transferred to Mandarin last year before it was known who the coach would even be.  The other two (Beck and Oxendine) were specifically quoted stating that they wanted the opportunity to play in the largest class.  Go look it up in the TU, its there.  Who is going to tell them they can't?  We are not busting at the seams with 8A schools up here.  Currently, there are only two, Mandarin and Sandalwood.  Again, Mandarin is a magnet school.  Anyone can go there.  If you don't like it, then go petition the Legislature to change the rules about counties designating specialty schools.  If you think it was bad before....just wait.  Mandarin returns their QB and loses all of their skill players.  Every skill player with a half a star next to his name within a 100 mile radius is going to try to transfer to Mandarin for next season.  I don't blame them one bit either since the rest of the QB talent in the state leaves a lot to be desired. 

But the weakest of all arguments is "They have no playoff history" or even better... "Oh, but they paid their dues..." Like it is a right of passage or something.  WTF?  So I guess we should just hand them something as a long time achievement award?  Guess what?  Columbus just wasn't good enough when they got to this point, last night or in 2014. Period.  No need to sugar coat.  Find a way to get over the hump.  Mandarin did and they can too.  Maybe their coaches should take a look at why their star studded defense full of players with plenty of Power 5 options was getting shredded by a group of skill players with offers from places like Western Kentucky, FIU, Tennessee-Martin, and the best is that the guy who torched them the worst has no D1 offers at all.  Or how a defense full of zero star guys held their Power 5 bound back in check except for a couple of 30 yd runs in the middle of the field.  By the way, Mandarin was a regional finalist a couple of years ago, so they did have some history.  Definitely a lot more now.  They have only been open since the 90's, so sorry they don't win the longevity award of 50 plus years.  I guess they should have waited until then to begin participating in sports.

As for Mandarin winning without those four, of course they wouldn't have.  Almost every title winning team ever can be narrowed down to a handful of players making the difference and I bet the lion's share of those arrived at their schools due to similar situations.  Hell, Mandarin won more games this year along the I-4 corridor than they did in their own damn stadium.  Maybe all this is just that Mandarin pissed in the Wheaties of all the peeps downstate who believe that it is some divine intervention that large school titles are theirs and theirs alone.  Welp, that changed last night.  Time to get over it.

Both teams played very hard last night and everyone from the Columbus side that I came in contact with was extremely respectful and showed nothing but utmost in class, a rarity in today's world.  Pretty sad when people get butt hurt and have to start nit picking because things aren't going the way they feel they should.

 

 

It's definitely going to shake up the duval player movement 

 

Wouldn't be surprised if most the studs now want to be at Mandarin 

[DisabledAccount]

Just now, Proseteye said:

The Florida Legislature Education Bill (HB 7029) was primarily passed to allow any student in the state of Florida to attend whatever school they choose regardless of district assignment. The reasoning behind this bill was to let students, from poorly performing schools, to transfer to better performing schools academically. It was never meant to allow students to transfer for sports only. Since the FHSAA is purely a sports regulating outfit they should simply return to the previous regulations wherein a student involved in sports would have to wait until the following year to participate in sports upon transferring from one school to another. This would also apply to private schools. A student could still transfer for academic reasons but the one year sports ban would still apply. Simply, this would return HS football to what it was meant to be and that is students from the community engaged in physical competition against other schools from their respective community.  What we currently have now is a few super teams bolstered by a multitude of incoming transfers every year. IMO this is not what HS competitive sports was envisioned to be.

And if the fhsaa doesn't have special conditions they will end up in court and take a beating

 

Then schools will find loopholes and have a advantage 

 

It's the same cycle,  nobody did anything to stop these metros who been stockpiling talent for a while and now the fans will pay the price for it

[ExplorerHomer2]

13 minutes ago, shredstar said:

 

Two of those players above (Mitchell and Douglas) transferred to Mandarin last year before it was known who the coach would even be.  The other two (Beck and Oxendine) were specifically quoted stating that they wanted the opportunity to play in the largest class.  Go look it up in the TU, its there.  Who is going to tell them they can't?  We are not busting at the seams with 8A schools up here.  Currently, there are only two, Mandarin and Sandalwood.  Again, Mandarin is a magnet school.  Anyone can go there.  If you don't like it, then go petition the Legislature to change the rules about counties designating specialty schools.  If you think it was bad before....just wait.  Mandarin returns their QB and loses all of their skill players.  Every skill player with a half a star next to his name within a 100 mile radius is going to try to transfer to Mandarin for next season.  I don't blame them one bit either since the rest of the QB talent in the state leaves a lot to be desired. 

But the weakest of all arguments is "They have no playoff history" or even better... "Oh, but they paid their dues..." Like it is a right of passage or something.  WTF?  So I guess we should just hand them something as a long time achievement award?  Guess what?  Columbus just wasn't good enough when they got to this point, last night or in 2014. Period.  No need to sugar coat.  Find a way to get over the hump.  Mandarin did and they can too.  Maybe their coaches should take a look at why their star studded defense full of players with plenty of Power 5 options was getting shredded by a group of skill players with offers from places like Western Kentucky, FIU, Tennessee-Martin, and the best is that the guy who torched them the worst has no D1 offers at all.  Or how a defense full of zero star guys held their Power 5 bound back in check except for a couple of 30 yd runs in the middle of the field.  By the way, Mandarin was a regional finalist a couple of years ago, so they did have some history.  Definitely a lot more now.  They have only been open since the 90's, so sorry they don't win the longevity award of 50 plus years.  I guess they should have waited until then to begin participating in sports.

As for Mandarin winning without those four, of course they wouldn't have.  Almost every title winning team ever can be narrowed down to a handful of players making the difference and I bet the lion's share of those arrived at their schools due to similar situations.  Hell, Mandarin won more games this year along the I-4 corridor than they did in their own damn stadium.  Maybe all this is just that Mandarin pissed in the Wheaties of all the peeps downstate who believe that it is some divine intervention that large school titles are theirs and theirs alone.  Welp, that changed last night.  Time to get over it.

Both teams played very hard last night and everyone from the Columbus side that I came in contact with was extremely respectful and showed nothing but utmost in class, a rarity in today's world.  Pretty sad when people get butt hurt and have to start nit picking because things aren't going the way they feel they should.

 

I've got to be careful how I say this, given my homer status.

I think Old School tried to parse this tactfully, but I feel Shred may have taken this personally. To be fair, I did not know about the Mandarin senior transfers. But IF that was the case, then I see much of Old School's point: the SITUATION regarding senior transfers among public schools is adding to this FHSAA issue. Hell, Columbus doesn't even allow senior sports transfers as a private.

I'm not taking anything away from Mandarin, and I don't think Old School is either. We had our chances to hit a FG, make that 2-pt conversion, etc. and we didn't. Too many penalties, too many turnovers. We got beat. We weren't entitled to a win because of the history or "dues". But that context does seems to highlight the actual problem: that the FHSAA and our sports-obsessed culture do push winning above team loyalty,  and eventually class-parity for the fans. Lastly, in agreement with Old School, this begins to water down the argument that the big privates have cornered the market in transfers. I've had to deal with this accusation at Columbus (namely because of STA) for years.  

That said, I think it's fair to be upset at the SYSTEM without taking it out on the individual SCHOOLS.

I think I've had this conversation in politics for the past 20 years: we can talk about revising a less than perfect electoral system, without having to make it all about the actual politician who won or lost.

Anyway, I'm hoping this response won't be seen as anything more than it is: the FHSAA has created a mess, and I can't blame any school for playing it to their advantage, just as private schools have been able to do for some time now. I just hate the trend as a fan of HS football.

Congrats to Mandarin!

13 minutes ago, shredstar said:

 

 

[LakelandGator]

10 hours ago, FL_HS_football said:

Did you not hear the broadcasters for last night's Lakeland/STA title game talk about all the players that transferred into Lakeland this year? Riverview's QB was at Cardinal Mooney last year, that offense without him would not had taken them to the semi-finals this year and then we had the post about Madison and the whole charter school concept, The Venice QB was at a different school last year as well...................I dont like what is happening to high school football one bit, but the FHSAA ignored for years what the privates like STA were doing to tilt the playing field to their advantage......and rather than fix it got the state legislators involved and now we have what we have and it is what it is. Dont like that you've decided to single out Mandarin when every other public school including the likes of Lakeland did much the same....................I'm just glad the private schools are at least in some instances having to take heaping doses of their own medicine!

Oh really?

Please enlighten us about all those great transfers into Lakeland this year.

[OldSchoolLion]

5 minutes ago, shredstar said:

 

Two of those players above (Mitchell and Douglas) transferred to Mandarin last year before it was known who the coach would even be.  The other two (Beck and Oxendine) were specifically quoted stating that they wanted the opportunity to play in the largest class.  Go look it up in the TU, its there.  Who is going to tell them they can't?  We are not busting at the seams with 8A schools up here.  Currently, there are only two, Mandarin and Sandalwood.  Again, Mandarin is a magnet school.  Anyone can go there.  If you don't like it, then go petition the Legislature to change the rules about counties designating specialty schools.  If you think it was bad before....just wait.  Mandarin returns their QB and loses all of their skill players.  Every skill player with a half a star next to his name within a 100 mile radius is going to try to transfer to Mandarin for next season.  I don't blame them one bit either since the rest of the QB talent in the state leaves a lot to be desired. 

But the weakest of all arguments is "They have no playoff history" or even better... "Oh, but they paid their dues..." Like it is a right of passage or something.  WTF?  So I guess we should just hand them something as a long time achievement award?  Guess what?  Columbus just wasn't good enough when they got to this point, last night or in 2014. Period.  No need to sugar coat.  Find a way to get over the hump.  Mandarin did and they can too.  Maybe their coaches should take a look at why their star studded defense full of players with plenty of Power 5 options was getting shredded by a group of skill players with offers from places like Western Kentucky, FIU, Tennessee-Martin, and the best is that the guy who torched them the worst has no D1 offers at all.  Or how a defense full of zero star guys held their Power 5 bound back in check except for a couple of 30 yd runs in the middle of the field.  By the way, Mandarin was a regional finalist a couple of years ago, so they did have some history.  Definitely a lot more now.  They have only been open since the 90's, so sorry they don't win the longevity award of 50 plus years.  I guess they should have waited until then to begin participating in sports.

As for Mandarin winning without those four, of course they wouldn't have.  Almost every title winning team ever can be narrowed down to a handful of players making the difference and I bet the lion's share of those arrived at their schools due to similar situations.  Hell, Mandarin won more games this year along the I-4 corridor than they did in their own damn stadium.  Both teams played very hard last night and everyone from the Columbus side that I came in contact with was extremely. Maybe all this is just that Mandarin pissed in the Wheaties of all the peeps downstate who believe that it is some divine intervention that large school titles are theirs and theirs alone.  Welp, that changed last night.  Time to get over it.

Both teams played very hard last night and everyone from the Columbus side that I came in contact with was extremely respectful and showed nothing but utmost in class, a rarity in today's world.  Pretty sad when people get butt hurt and have to start nit picking because things aren't going the way they feel they should.

 

 

In case there is any question, I don't pimp any schools or parts of the state, and am neutral in the public vs private debate.  None of my comments should be taken as having an undercurrent of favoritism.  I call things as I see them.  I have no ties to Columbus or Mandarin.  Thought it was a great game and the better team won last night.  That's not the issue, though.

"But the weakest of all arguments is "They have no playoff history" or even better... "Oh, but they paid their dues..." Like it is a right of passage or something.  WTF?"  I think you missed my point.  I mentioned Columbus' history not to imply that in some way they deserved to win.  I did so to paint a picture of how folks would have likely reacted if a private school had beaten a public school under the exact same circumstances.  I can hear the moaning now about how _____missed out on a state title because some upstart private school beat them.  

When schools like Oxbridge and University "popped up," there were a lot of tough questions asked...and rightfully so.  For years private schools have been intensely scrutinized.  Public schools, including Mandarin, may need to learn how it feels now.  Not fun, huh?  Well, it probably wasn't for them either.

Please give me the name of another public school in the upper classes that has done anything like what Mandardin did this year in terms of rising to prominence in such short order and coming off a 2-8 season to win a title.  Questioning it is not necessarily a matter of nitpicking or being butt hurt.  Anyone who knows FL hs football over the past 50 years knows those circumstances are extremely unusual.  Does it mean Mandarin did anything wrong?  No.  Would even the most neutral person ask "How did that happen?"  I think that's reasonable, so Mandarin folks should not be butt hurt that someone is bringing this situation to light.   This thread is not just about Mandarin.  There are much broader implications of the discussion.

"Almost every title winning team ever can be narrowed down to a handful of players making the difference and I bet the lion's share of those arrived at their schools due to similar situations."  You may well be right, sir.  Please give us names of players and details of their transfers to prove that point.  Until I see facts, I don't make such assumptions out of fairness to those programs.  I happen to know that Cardinal Gibbons had only 2 transfers that started this year because I took the time to research.  Surprising, huh?

"Maybe all this is just that Mandarin pissed in the Wheaties of all the peeps downstate who believe that it is some divine intervention that large school titles are theirs and theirs alone.  Welp, that changed last night.  Time to get over it."

That is not the case with me, sir.  I have actually done entire threads on North FL football, including the dominance of North FL over other parts of the state back in the 1970's and 1980's.  Not everyone who raises issues has a hidden agenda. 

The next time somebody raises questions about a program, I'll be watching for you, Shredstar, to come to their defense and tell the questioner to knock it off and stop the sour grapes.  If what happened at Mandarin this year is not worthy of objective, honest scrutiny, I cannot think of much that is.  

 

[Proseteye]

1 hour ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

And if the fhsaa doesn't have special conditions they will end up in court and take a beating

 

Then schools will find loopholes and have a advantage 

 

It's the same cycle,  nobody did anything to stop these metros who been stockpiling talent for a while and now the fans will pay the price for it

Then the FHSAA is a toothless Tiger. If that is truly the case, then the Florida Legislature should edit their legislation to allow transfers for academic reasons only if that is not already in the bill. Schools would then be forced to adhere to the rules of the legislation. Otherwise, if things continue as is, HS football will become nothing more than a recruiting tool that colleges have become. Colleges could now care less what a HS football player's academic ability is. I would imagine it's becoming the same in HS where the administrations could care less what a football player's academic ability is. A sad day in this country where playing with a piece of pigskin is more important than what is produced in the classroom.

[DisabledAccount]

21 minutes ago, Proseteye said:

Then the FHSAA is a toothless Tiger. If that is truly the case, then the Florida Legislature should edit their legislation to allow transfers for academic reasons only if that is not already in the bill. Schools would then be forced to adhere to the rules of the legislation. Otherwise, if things continue as is, HS football will become nothing more than a recruiting tool that colleges have become. Colleges could now care less what a HS football player's academic ability is. I would imagine it's becoming the same in HS where the administrations could care less what a football player's academic ability is. A sad day in this country where playing with a piece of pigskin is more important than what is produced in the classroom.

People will just find loopholes or even lie and say it's for academic reasons 

 

All I'm saying is that there is no way to truly fix these solutions without hurting a ton of people who do things the right way 

[OldSchoolLion]

1 hour ago, ExplorerHomer2 said:

I've got to be careful how I say this, given my homer status.

I think Old School tried to parse this tactfully, but I feel Shred may have taken this personally. To be fair, I did not know about the Mandarin senior transfers. But IF that was the case, then I see much of Old School's point: the SITUATION regarding senior transfers among public schools is adding to this FHSAA issue. Hell, Columbus doesn't even allow senior sports transfers as a private.

I'm not taking anything away from Mandarin, and I don't think Old School is either. We had our chances to hit a FG, make that 2-pt conversion, etc. and we didn't. Too many penalties, too many turnovers. We got beat. We weren't entitled to a win because of the history or "dues". But that context does seems to highlight the actual problem: that the FHSAA and our sports-obsessed culture do push winning above team loyalty,  and eventually class-parity for the fans. Lastly, in agreement with Old School, this begins to water down the argument that the big privates have cornered the market in transfers. I've had to deal with this accusation at Columbus (namely because of STA) for years.  

That said, I think it's fair to be upset at the SYSTEM without taking it out on the individual SCHOOLS.

I think I've had this conversation in politics for the past 20 years: we can talk about revising a less than perfect electoral system, without having to make it all about the actual politician who won or lost.

Anyway, I'm hoping this response won't be seen as anything more than it is: the FHSAA has created a mess, and I can't blame any school for playing it to their advantage, just as private schools have been able to do for some time now. I just hate the trend as a fan of HS football.

Congrats to Mandarin!

 

..very nicely said.  Personally, I would struggle as a coach today holding up a trophy knowing I did not completely work for it, ie develop the talent myself.  And I would struggle as a fan rooting for a team with stars who transferred in this year or last.

For the coaches and fans who can look themselves in the mirror and feel proud under those circumstances, good for you.   If those folks expect me to respect their position and not be critical, they likewise should respect the fact that there are those with different values who see hypocrisy.  What I see today feels to me a bit like bragging to my peers about my stepson's great accomplishments knowing I married his mom when we he was already out of college.

I put my money where my mouth is.  I do not root for my high school alma mater because I found out about some shenanigans and they lost my loyalty.  If I want to root for all-star teams, I'll pick a college or pro team, not a high school one. 

HS football used to be an alternative for coaches and fans who liked grassroots efforts.  Where does a coach or fan go now who wants to coach or root for a team that is truly his own?  If some of ya'll don't know where I am coming from, I understand.  It used to be a very different world.  One only took credit for that which he did himself with his own two hands. 

Knowing how to build a program from the ground up used to be considered a critical coaching skill.  Maybe not so much now.  It's a bit like the difference between a machine operator who knows how to take his machine apart and work on it versus one who only who simply knows how to push the buttons to operate it. There's no comparison between the two.

 

      

 

 

 

[FL_HS_football]

1 hour ago, LakelandGator said:

Oh really?

Please enlighten us about all those great transfers into Lakeland this year.

Most if not all were either starters or saw significant playing minutes Friday night

1.)    Lloyd Summerall 4* DE – was at 2 different High Schools before coming to Lakeland this season (Kingdom Prep School and last season at Auburndale HS last season)

2.)    Dywonski McWilliams QB – was at Jenkins HS last year

3.)    Deyavie Hammond  4* OT- Was at IMG last season

4.)    Jaharie Martin LB - was at Lake Gibson last season

5.)    Chris Howard WR – was at Lake Gibson before transferring to Lakeland

6.)    Khalil Crawford LB – was at Prattville HS before transferring to Lakeland

7.)    Tony Ware DB – was at Lake Gibson before transferring into Lakeland

8.)    Teshaun Nixon DB – was at Lake Gibson before transferring into Lakeland

9.)    Willie Lampkin OG – was at Mulberry HS before transferring into Lakeland

10.)  Tayshawn Rodman DB – was at Victory Christian before transferring into Lakeland

11.) Jace Hohenthaner K – was at Land O Lakes HS before transferring into Lakeland

12.)  Tyler Sheffield OC – was at Victory Christian before transferring into Lakeland

 13.) Naveli Dixson OG – was at Tenoroc HS before transferring into Lakeland this season

[OldSchoolLion]

..random thouhgt here.  I find it sad that in future discussions of "great" coaches of today, some may not be mentioned in as positive a light as other simply  because they stayed put at a certain school that had little chance of ever winning a state title... versus coaches who moved around and inherited all-star teams.  

Not to in any way take anything away from Mandarin's coach, but I can think of a number of coaches who likely have the skills to win a state title with that team.  Unfortunately, some may never win a title unless they break loyalties and move, ie Sam Sirianni/Fort Myers, Binky Waldrop/Charlotte, Jim Buckridge/Timber Creek, Charlie Tate/Winter Haven

Do they deserve to win a title simply because they have paid their dues?  No.  Have they proven themselves more than certain coaches today with better records.  Absolutely, IMO.  And if anyone wants to disagree, I'll be asking what program you built from the ground up to be a winner.  Turning around a program with a culture of losing and building a sustainable culture of winning is the ultimate coaching accomplishment in my book. 

 

 

 

[gwdrum75]

7 minutes ago, FL_HS_football said:

Most if not all were either starters or saw significant playing minutes Friday night

1.)    Lloyd Summerall 4* DE – was at 2 different High Schools before coming to Lakeland this season (Kingdom Prep School and last season at Auburndale HS last season)

2.)    Dywonski McWilliams QB – was at Jenkins HS last year

3.)    Deyavie Hammond  4* OT- Was at IMG last season

4.)    Jaharie Martin LB - was at Lake Gibson last season

5.)    Chris Howard WR – was at Lake Gibson before transferring to Lakeland

6.)    Khalil Crawford LB – was at Prattville HS before transferring to Lakeland

7.)    Tony Ware DB – was at Lake Gibson before transferring into Lakeland

8.)    Teshaun Nixon DB – was at Lake Gibson before transferring into Lakeland

9.)    Willie Lampkin OG – was at Mulberry HS before transferring into Lakeland

10.)  Tayshawn Rodman DB – was at Victory Christian before transferring into Lakeland

11.) Jace Hohenthaner K – was at Land O Lakes HS before transferring into Lakeland

12.)  Tyler Sheffield OC – was at Victory Christian before transferring into Lakeland

 13.) Naveli Dixson OG – was at Tenoroc HS before transferring into Lakeland this season

3.)    Deyavie Hammond  4* OT- Was at IMG last season - Was at Lakeland his Freshman & Sophomore year

6.)    Khalil Crawford LB – was at Prattville HS before transferring to Lakeland - I would assume he moved to Lakeland and isn't commuting from Alabama.

10.)  Tayshawn Rodman DB – was at Victory Christian before transferring into Lakeland - Likely lives in Lakeland zone anyway as most VC & LCS kids do.

11.) Jace Hohenthaner K – was at Land O Lakes HS before transferring into Lakeland - See #6....I'm sure he's not commuting from LOL.

12.)  Tyler Sheffield OC – was at Victory Christian before transferring into Lakeland - See #10......ditto

Sure, Lakeland gets transfers. But, the most amusing thing I read every year is how people don't mention the kids that transfer out of Lakeland every year because they aren't starters. I believe two years ago, Lakeland lost 10+ players that transferred out to other schools.

While, I admit, I miss the days of hometown teams that grew from JV to Varsity, those days are over.

And, lets face it.......if you want to go back to those days, you might as well cancel the State Championship series. STA and many other privates would never lose another one if they only had to go against the old-school hometown public schools.

[FL_HS_football]

1 minute ago, gwdrum75 said:

And, lets face it.......if you want to go back to those days, you might as well cancel the State Championship series. STA and many other privates would never lose another one if they only had to go against the old-school hometown public schools.

Not even trying to argue that point........ I agree totally!  The genius however I was responding to, asked who (as if to say its not happening at Lakeland HS), so I provided the facts................its pisses me off every year when I go over the Manatee roster to spot transfers, to see it happening at Manatee too. I used to enjoy going to the freshman and JV games to see upcoming talent being developed......unfortunately and I blame the privates for the most part..........................circumstances have led to what we have today.

[skyway]

Also missing DE A.J. Thomas who was a RB/DL at Bartow as a Soph.

I don't mind talented players targeting good programs they want to end up at. But, I don't like all of the transferring around from one public school in a city to another. It's a bad trend. I'm actually glad Brenden Gant stayed at Kathleen this year. He obviously would have helped Lakeland. And, I'm sure he's pals with some of the players and they probably hoped he'd come over. 

That said, it is entirely widespread now. At present, I don't think it is fair to get mad at any schools benefiting from this trend. Lakeland's last three playoff opponents all had several high profile players who had previously played elsewhere. What needs to happen is the trend of the best players deciding to join forces and thus deplete the other teams needs to become unfashionable. Heap praise on those like Gant who stay put.

[OldSchoolLion]

17 minutes ago, FL_HS_football said:

Not even trying to argue that point........ I agree totally!  The genius however I was responding to, asked who (as if to say its not happening at Lakeland HS), so I provided the facts................its pisses me off every year when I go over the Manatee roster to spot transfers, to see it happening at Manatee too. I used to enjoy going to the freshman and JV games to see upcoming talent being developed......unfortunately and I blame the privates for the most part..........................circumstances have led to what we have today.

From a historical perspective, most private schools have not done a disproportionate amount of winning.  Bolles and St Thomas got folks started on the private school kick 25 years ago, and for good reason.  Some folks don't like calling out individual schools, but it may be the lesser of 2 evils than to generalize "privates."  Not being critical, just an observation.   

If schools like Tampa Catholic, Jesuit and Columbus have been recruiting heavily all these years, they need to get new recruiters because not one has a state title in the past 50 years LOL   

[Nulli Secundus]

47 minutes ago, gwdrum75 said:

Sure, Lakeland gets transfers. But, the most amusing thing I read every year is how people don't mention the kids that transfer out of Lakeland every year because they aren't starters. I believe two years ago, Lakeland lost 10+ players that transferred out to other schools.

Thank you.  Couldn’t have stated it any better myself and it’s been happening for a long time.

[FL_HS_football]

11 minutes ago, Nulli Secundus said:

Thank you.  Couldn’t have stated it any better myself and it’s been happening for a long time.

And of course the kids that transfer in do in fact become starters..........this past Friday night is a perfect illustration of that.......come on now lets keep this real!