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OldSchoolLion

Should These Schools Be Moved in Classification? Does This Make Sense to You?

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Below are 17 "newer" FL high schools that are being moved up in classification.  6 of the them made the playoffs this past season(these are bolded).  A couple have had very good success, ie Bartram Trail and Ponte Vedra.  Some seem to be in the early stages of gaining momentum, ie West Broward, Oakleaf, East Ridge, South Lake, Lehigh, Hagerty, Sunlake and Mitchell.  Others have programs that have never really taken off, ie West Port, Ocoee, Celebration, and Fivay.  Windermere has struggled in its first 2 seasons of play and is already being moved up in class.  Then we have schools that have had very good success of late in their respective classes, ie Columbia, Wekiva, Manatee, Atlantic, Southridge, etc, that are being moved down in class. 

...some philosophical questions.  Would love to hear your opinions!  Not that there are many of you who are opinionated.:rolleyes:

If a school has been struggling in its existing class(and, in some cases, even lower classes), does it make sense to move it up in class, where theoretically it could face even tougher competition?

If a school is just starting to taste some success in its existing class(after, in some cases, years to get such momentum), should that momentum be compromised by moving the school up in class?

If a school has proven itself capable of consistently competing for state titles in a class, should it be moved down in class? 

 

Broward County

West Broward(7A) 2008     19-23 over the past 3 seasons; 1 playoff win since opening

 

Clay County

Oakleaf(8A) 2010     14-18 over the past 3 seasons; 2 playoff wins since opening

 

Hillsborough

Lennard(8A) 2006     4-26 over the past 3 seasons; 2 playoff wins since opening

Spoto(6A) 2006     10-19 over the past 3 seasons; 1 playoff win since opening

 

Lake County

East Ridge(8A) 2002     16-15 over the past 3 seasons; 6 playoff wins since opening

South Lake(7A)1993     19-13 over the past 5 seasons; 1 playoff win since opening

 

Lee County

Lehigh(7A) 1994     16-13 over the past 3 seasons; 2 playoff wins since opening

 

Marion County

West Port(8A) 2000     11-19 over the past 3 seasons; 1 playoff win since opening

 

Orange County

Ocoee(8A) 2005     13-19 over the past 3 seasons; no playoff wins since opening

Windermere(8A) 2017     2-17 over the past 2 seasons; no playoff wins since opening

 

Osceola County

Celebration(8A) 2003     6-24 over the past 3 seasons; no playoff wins since opening

 

Pasco County

Fivay(6A) 2010     7-22 over the past 3 season; no playoff wins since opening

Mitchell(7A) 2000     27-7 over the past 3 seasons; 2 palyoff wins since opening

Sunlake(7A) 2007     16-15 over the past 3 seasons; 2 playoff wins since opening

 

St Johns

Bartram Trail(8A) 2000     27-12 over the past 3 seasons; 20 playoff wins since opening

Ponte Vedra(6A) 2008     29-9 over the past 3 seasons, 5 playoff wins since opening

 

Seminole County

Hagerty(8A) 2005     23-10 over the past 3 seasons; no playoff wins since opening

 

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the ones being moved into 8a, were too big to start with.  windermere for example is above capacity already. 

west orlando is growing alot, quickly.  theyve already bought more land to build a new school to relieve the area.

for whatever reason in central florida, a new school is built to capacity is now.  not what it will be in 5-10 years.

2000kids turn into 3500 kids real quick.

st cloud rebuilt about 10 yrs ago and built to what they were before the rebuild, and now, busting at the seams. until they brought in toho high, re did the district lines and shifted kids.  so st cloud is under and gateway falls from big 8a to 6a.

orlando area schools need this method when building a new school, or for that matter re do the entire school zones outside of the downtown schools.

would help alot.

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Male sports should be placed by male population, and Female sports should be placed by female population. A total number of students makes no sense at all when there is no idea about what the ratio of male:female is per school. 

 

I would say you put the schools where they go as that is the structure of the system per the FHSAA. The idea sounds a bit like participation trophy, but on a much smaller scale. 

 

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1 hour ago, OldSchoolLion said:

Below are 17 "newer" FL high schools that are being moved up in classification.  6 of the them made the playoffs this past season(these are bolded).  A couple have had very good success, ie Bartram Trail and Ponte Vedra.  Some seem to be in the early stages of gaining momentum, ie West Broward, Oakleaf, East Ridge, South Lake, Lehigh, Hagerty, Sunlake and Mitchell.  Others have programs that have never really taken off, ie West Port, Ocoee, Celebration, and Fivay.  Windermere has struggled in its first 2 seasons of play and is already being moved up in class.  Then we have schools that have had very good success of late in their respective classes, ie Columbia, Wekiva, Manatee, Atlantic, Southridge, etc, that are being moved down in class. 

...some philosophical questions.  Would love to hear your opinions!  Not that there are many of you who are opinionated.:rolleyes:

If a school has been struggling in its existing class(and, in some cases, even lower classes), does it make sense to move it up in class, where theoretically it could face even tougher competition?

If a school is just starting to taste some success in its existing class(after, in some cases, years to get such momentum), should that momentum be compromised by moving the school up in class?

If a school has proven itself capable of consistently competing for state titles in a class, should it be moved down in class? 

It's not clear to me that there is any difference among the four highest classes when it comes to the overall quality of the football. So this may render the topic moot. For example, if we picked the four highest class state champions this year (or any other recent year for that matter) and runners up, eight teams in all, and put them in a playoff bracket, it is not at all clear to me that the finalist would be correlated by current classification.

I do agree that generally, not always, the three smallest classes are somewhat behind the bigger schools. 4a, I am not sure about. I think it varies from year to year. 

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19 minutes ago, DarterBlue2 said:

It's not clear to me that there is any difference among the four highest classes when it comes to the overall quality of the football. So this may render the topic moot. For example, if we picked the four highest class state champions this year (or any other recent year for that matter) and runners up, eight teams in all, and put them in a playoff bracket, it is not at all clear to me that the finalist would be correlated by current classification.

I do agree that generally, not always, the three smallest classes are somewhat behind the bigger schools. 4a, I am not sure about. I think it varies from year to year. 

If it's a moot point(and I don't necessarily disagree), it forces a a series of new questions.  Does the use of student population still make sense in terms of segregating teams to level the playing field?  Why do we need so many classes if there is such minimal difference in talent levels between the classes?    What is having separate classes really accomplishing if the talent is comparable across classes?  There used to be prestige in winning the biggest class in FL.  Maybe not so much anymore.

If the purpose of having separate classes is to level the playing field, maybe we need a different system to do so.

 

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1 minute ago, OldSchoolLion said:

If it's a moot point(and I don't necessarily disagree), it forces a a series of new questions.  Does the use of student population still make sense in terms of segregating teams to level the playing field?  Why do we need so many classes if there is such minimal difference in talent levels between the classes?    What is having separate classes really accomplishing if the talent is comparable across classes?  There used to be prestige in winning the biggest class in FL.  Maybe not so much anymore.

If the purpose of having separate classes is to level the playing field, maybe we need a different system to do so.

 

Gatorman UF came up with an interesting promotion/demotion system a few years back that made a lot more sense to me if the true purpose was to level the playing field. The large number of Dade 8a and 7a schools bailing for independent status this go around is testimony to the fact that size does not provide a solution to lack of talent. Cypress Creek and a few other schools in Orlando back this point up.

A school with 4,000+ kids may be totally unable to field a competitive football team based on a variety of factors of which ethnicity and culture, as well as innate talent, are only two of the variables. 

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40 minutes ago, DarterBlue2 said:

It's not clear to me that there is any difference among the four highest classes when it comes to the overall quality of the football. So this may render the topic moot. For example, if we picked the four highest class state champions this year (or any other recent year for that matter) and runners up, eight teams in all, and put them in a playoff bracket, it is not at all clear to me that the finalist would be correlated by current classification.

I do agree that generally, not always, the three smallest classes are somewhat behind the bigger schools. 4a, I am not sure about. I think it varies from year to year. 

4A doesn’t have the depth

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some background on a few schools...

South Lake was in a tough 6A District 5 with Vanguard and Gainesville last year, but still managed to secure a playoff spot and finish the season with a winning record.  Now they are going to be in 7A District 3 with Edgewater and Wekiva.  So, good luck winning that district.  And as far as making the playoffs, Lincoln, Crestview, Niceville, Navarre, Fletcher could all be fighting it out for wilcard spots.  This is the toughest region in the state IMO.  I doubt South Lake will be making the playoffs again anytime soon. 

Ocoee finished 4-2 in 7A District 4 last season, and lost their two district games by a TD or less.  They lost to 8A Apopka 47-0 .  And guess who they will share 8A District 4 with next season...Apopka.

Celebration...just how bad are they?  This season they lost 54-14 to a 2-7 Windermere team.  Despite playing in a relatively weak, 7-team district, they were outscored 422-126 by opponents this season.  Only 4 teams in 7A gave up more points. 

Lennard is moving into 8A District 2 with Palm Coast, Seminole and Deland, all playoff-quality teams.  After finishing 2-8 overall and 1-5 in 7A District 9, life will not get any easier, boys. 

Hagerty..things were looking promising after making the 7A playoffs for the 3rd time in 4 years.  That might be the last time for a while.  Now they are in a very tough 8A Region 1, sharing the district with Winter Park and likely having to fight for a wilcard spot with teams like West Orange, Bartram Trail and Pal Coast. 

 

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6 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

Celebration...just how bad are they?  This season they lost 54-14 to a 2-7 Windermere team.  Despite playing in a relatively weak, 7-team district, they were outscored 422-126 by opponents this season.  Only 4 teams in 7A gave up more points. 

Very good at soccer. In football, they did have a coach a few years ago, who seemed to be taking them down the right path. Then that ended and they were back to square one ... Celebration is kind of a Disney creation, an upper middle class community. I don't necessarily think the parents want Johnny to get banged up playing football. 

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8 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

Hagerty..things were looking promising after making the 7A playoffs for the 3rd time in 4 years.  That might be the last time for a while.  Now they are in a very tough 8A Region 1, sharing the district with Winter Park and likely having to fight for a wilcard spot with teams like West Orange, Bartram Trail and Pal Coast. 

Hagerty actually has a chance. The new HBC was formerly at Oviedo (Hagerty was opened to relieve Oviedo). I could actually see them being competitive in the district with Winter Park. It would not be too much of a stretch. 

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13 hours ago, h8r said:

the ones being moved into 8a, were too big to start with.  windermere for example is above capacity already. 

west orlando is growing alot, quickly.  theyve already bought more land to build a new school to relieve the area.

for whatever reason in central florida, a new school is built to capacity is now.  not what it will be in 5-10 years.

2000kids turn into 3500 kids real quick.

st cloud rebuilt about 10 yrs ago and built to what they were before the rebuild, and now, busting at the seams. until they brought in toho high, re did the district lines and shifted kids.  so st cloud is under and gateway falls from big 8a to 6a.

orlando area schools need this method when building a new school, or for that matter re do the entire school zones outside of the downtown schools.

would help alot.

Same here in Jax area. Schools are built to what they think it will be. I know they are building/have built additions on to schools in St Johns and Clay County, Nassau County is about to explode and be the same exact way. 

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16 hours ago, Hwy17 said:

Why are these programs struggling?  Do they have a revolving door of new coaches every year?  Lack of a feeder program?  Or over ambitious scheduling?

As far as overly ambitious scheduling, it can be difficult to judge without all the details.  Maybe there are some extenuating circumstances that forced a certain team to schedule tougher teams than they would have liked.  It's hard for me to believe that a team like Lennard, who has won 4 games in 3 seasons and knows they are not realistically in the running for a playoff spot, would go out of their way to intentionally set a schedule that is substantially above their performance level. 

Also, with the new points system, we have introduced an incentive for teams to possibly over-schedule.  Some marginal teams might figure, "What the heck, let's go for bust on our schedule and maybe we hit it lucky and make the playoffs this year."  nothing ventured, nothing gained mentality.   Also, teams in weak, larger district are at a natural disadvantage and are forced to schedule tougher non-district opponents (this is a major flaw of the system-district placement should not put a team at a disadvantage, but it does in some cases).

All that said, I think wanton scheduling is going to be a tough variable to pin down as a cause.  When I have a chance, I'll look to see if I can find any common threads.  I did a thread on new programs in which I used Windermere as an example.  They are practically a brand new school, so are a bit unique amongst the schools listed above.    

 

 

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16 hours ago, DarterBlue2 said:

.......

A school with 4,000+ kids may be totally unable to field a competitive football team based on a variety of factors of which ethnicity and culture, as well as innate talent, are only two of the variables. 

I disagree. If you have 2K male students, roughly, based on your example, you should be able to pull in a solid varsity and jv. Ethnicity shouldn't have much to do with it.That coach must able to recruit his own hallways and having a solid program in place for teaching football and physical training of the athlete. I'm not saying that team will consistently, if ever, be state level. But a good, motivated coach can turn a 2K male population into a solid program. 

The real reason a lot of bigger schools don't field competitive teams is coaching and culture. This can be reversed, but it takes a ton of work and buy in. Also, boosters and community support stepping up to fill gaps where county budgets can't for the things the team needs also helps. But the bigger the school, the more potential parents and boosters there are to help.

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2 hours ago, 181pl said:

I disagree. If you have 2K male students, roughly, based on your example, you should be able to pull in a solid varsity and jv. Ethnicity shouldn't have much to do with it.That coach must able to recruit his own hallways and having a solid program in place for teaching football and physical training of the athlete. I'm not saying that team will consistently, if ever, be state level. But a good, motivated coach can turn a 2K male population into a solid program. 

The real reason a lot of bigger schools don't field competitive teams is coaching and culture. This can be reversed, but it takes a ton of work and buy in. Also, boosters and community support stepping up to fill gaps where county budgets can't for the things the team needs also helps. But the bigger the school, the more potential parents and boosters there are to help.

Try explaining to me, then, why Cypress Creek, which has been consistently been one of the largest public schools in Orlando, has never been able to field a competitive football team. The same could be said for Varela or Coral Reef in Miami-Dade. Not sure about the two Dade teams, but I know that Cypress Creek has had a decent head coach from time to time. 

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Winter Park will dominate their district. They openly recruited numerous players last year with payments for housing and other violations and did not even get a slap on the wrist by the state. Timber creek is way down and the other teams are also rans. Talent at Hagerty is much less than new coaches old school Oviedo. 

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1 hour ago, DarterBlue2 said:

Try explaining to me, then, why Cypress Creek, which has been consistently been one of the largest public schools in Orlando, has never been able to field a competitive football team. The same could be said for Varela or Coral Reef in Miami-Dade. Not sure about the two Dade teams, but I know that Cypress Creek has had a decent head coach from time to time. 

you know the reason why, but the PC keyboard strokes limiting the real answer.....

:)

because their best kids goto freedom, and then their best kids go to DP/boone/anywhere but freedom and watch (for the most part).

and

the culture at CC is not 1 of a football program powerhouse, similar to freedom, colonial, university.  all 4 populations are very similar, as are the players in which make up the football programs.  there will be years of 4,5,6,7 wins, but never a dist title and deep playoff run.

2000boys, yep, less than 100 in the football program, yep.  why?  football isnt as important as wearing fresh sneakers, some great clothes, the honda civics with gross sounding mufflers.  LOL.  you know what im talking about.

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22 hours ago, winallthetime said:

Male sports should be placed by male population, and Female sports should be placed by female population. A total number of students makes no sense at all when there is no idea about what the ratio of male:female is per school. 

I would say you put the schools where they go as that is the structure of the system per the FHSAA. The idea sounds a bit like participation trophy, but on a much smaller scale. 

 

The ratio for schools is almost universally the same, the few that are all boys or all girls have their populations doubled, so I don't see the need to clarify.

I disagree with it being a participation trophy. I think schools want to play against schools with similar abilities. I once read a book that asked coach how do you ideally schedule. The answer was 1 "easy" game, one game versus a team on your level and one game that would challenge you and your team. I think most coaches want games against teams they can compete against, to build that winning culture or any culture at all.
____
I still believe a promotion/relegation that takes into account two years of data for football (one year for other sports) that puts the best 16 teams up and sends the best 16 teams down would create a more fair system. Since the state legislature now allows students to transfer for athletic reasons (still can't be recruited though), this means that the population numbers are a guide, but not a rule. Do good teams go through ruts? Sure, let them move down until they can get themselves out of the rut.

I look at teams like Paxon(5A), Stanton(5A), and I guess Wolfson (3A) now in Jacksonville or Suncoast (5A) in Palm Beach County. Schools that have football programs, but these programs struggle tremendously due to being 100% academic magnet schools. Is their talent really on the level of other 5A schools? Probably not, so maybe we need to move them down. At the same point schools like C-M, Trinity Christian, Bolles, probably have the talent to be competitive at a 5A level. 

One of the goals of the FHSAA has to be to ensure the growth of the sports they help manage. They can help do that by ensuring that schools feel like they have a fair shot of competing against other schools in their classification. While small rural schools face unique challenges, thus the creation of 1A-Rural, it is important to note that the rural schools generally have been much happier as they feel they are competing against teams of the same caliber. Notice the complaints about Madison County being in 1A, is it because they aren't rural, above 600, or that they are good? I would say it is the 2nd one, people feel they aren't a small 600 person school despite what the student population reports say. 

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7 hours ago, OldSchoolLion said:

As far as overly ambitious scheduling, it can be difficult to judge without all the details.  Maybe there are some extenuating circumstances that forced a certain team to schedule tougher teams than they would have liked.  It's hard for me to believe that a team like Lennard, who has won 4 games in 3 seasons and knows they are not realistically in the running for a playoff spot, would go out of their way to intentionally set a schedule that is substantially above their performance level. 

Also, with the new points system, we have introduced an incentive for teams to possibly over-schedule.  Some marginal teams might figure, "What the heck, let's go for bust on our schedule and maybe we hit it lucky and make the playoffs this year."  nothing ventured, nothing gained mentality.   Also, teams in weak, larger district are at a natural disadvantage and are forced to schedule tougher non-district opponents (this is a major flaw of the system-district placement should not put a team at a disadvantage, but it does in some cases).

All that said, I think wanton scheduling is going to be a tough variable to pin down as a cause.  When I have a chance, I'll look to see if I can find any common threads.  I did a thread on new programs in which I used Windermere as an example.  They are practically a brand new school, so are a bit unique amongst the schools listed above.    

 

 

I know that many times the administration of a new school feels the need to play other more established schools in their county; whether they are ready to or not.  George Jenkins for example, right out the gate felt the need to play Bartow and Lakeland, the two schools that they are located in between.  When Jenkin's opened, Bartow was still a state powerhouse, and of course we all know about Lakeland.  You mention Lennard, which is in Hillsborough county.  Hillsborough, last I checked doesn't allow their public schools to schedule non-district games outside the county.  If I'm not mistaken, their scheduling is done by a centralized office, not the local school.  Didn't Lennard have a winning season a couple of years ago? Jenkins is one of those I was referring to that has finally had some level of moderate success.  I think it would be unfair to their program or any other program to say that once they get a winning season to have to move up.  Likewise, we see it is possible that they can win and can be successful.  I don't think it would be fair to programs in lower classes to move a big school down to their division just because they had a couple of bad years.  

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"Lennard is moving into 8A District 2 with Palm Coast, Seminole and Deland, all playoff-quality teams.  After finishing 2-8 overall and 1-5 in 7A District 9, life will not get any easier, boys." 

"As far as overly ambitious scheduling, it can be difficult to judge without all the details.  Maybe there are some extenuating circumstances that forced a certain team to schedule tougher teams than they would have liked.  It's hard for me to believe that a team like Lennard, who has won 4 games in 3 seasons and knows they are not realistically in the running for a playoff spot, would go out of their way to intentionally set a schedule that is substantially above their performance level."

 

A couple of things here.   As best I can tell from the FHSAA website, Lennard will be in 8A, Region 2, District 8 (along with the two Riverview teams, Haines City, Ridge Community and Newsome).  Of the teams in this district, Lennard has the largest student population (3117).   

Lennard has struggled the last few years, but in 2015 they were 7-4 and the year before that they were 8-3. 

Go to the Your 2018 6A Finalist Transfer List thread and you'll see that in the last two years, three Lennard players have transferred to Armwood - a pair of DB's and a 3* DE, all who played regularly.  So, arguably, Lennard has talent walking their hallways until that talent is walking in another school's hallways. 

Last, and perhaps most importantly, Hwy17 is correct:  Hillsborough County public schools do not get to make their own schedules.  Schedules are handled by the County athletic department.  Teams have to get permission to play out-of-state and out-of-county pre-season games (which can be accomplished if a school is able to check off all of the required boxes), but for the most part, Hillsborough County public schools are not able to play regular season games against non-county opponents (and have very little control over which non-district county schools they play).  This comes back to haunt those schools who make it into the playoffs, but who then have to travel for every game after the first home game, because these schools Power Ranking Average is low because they can't schedule opponents that have good records or participated in the playoffs one of the last two years. 

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5 minutes ago, Hwy17 said:

I know that many times the administration of a new school feels the need to play other more established schools in their county; whether they are ready to or not.  George Jenkins for example, right out the gate felt the need to play Bartow and Lakeland, the two schools that they are located in between.  When Jenkin's opened, Bartow was still a state powerhouse, and of course we all know about Lakeland.  You mention Lennard, which is in Hillsborough county.  Hillsborough, last I checked doesn't allow their public schools to schedule non-district games outside the county.  If I'm not mistaken, their scheduling is done by a centralized office, not the local school.  Didn't Lennard have a winning season a couple of years ago? Jenkins is one of those I was referring to that has finally had some level of moderate success.  I think it would be unfair to their program or any other program to say that once they get a winning season to have to move up.  Likewise, we see it is possible that they can win and can be successful.  I don't think it would be fair to programs in lower classes to move a big school down to their division just because they had a couple of bad years.  

If we use my example in the other thread and move up the top 10 teams in a class every 2 years, the teams that move up are likely going to be teams that won 15 or more regular season games over two years...likely no flukes.  So a team that just starts winning and putting together two, 6-4 seasons is not going to be touched.  No way they will be amongst the top 10 teams in a class with a record like that.

In the English soccer league, the teams that get promoted are often really good teams(relative to all of the teams playing in England), and some bounce back and forth between two leagues over a long period of time, because they are truly "bubble" teams.  One does not see teams just starting to win getting promoted.  They often need years of solid winning before they are able to qualify for one of the promotional spots.   

Concerning relegated teams, with as many classes as we have today, the effect of moving a "bigger" school down in class is lessened.  We won't be seeing schools with 4000 moving down amongst schools with 1500.  The only difference between playing in two classes could be an easier district schedule for a team moving down.  We don't see too many teams with 3 or 4 wins over two seasons making drastic turnarounds, even if they do move down in class as part of reclassification as we know it today.  And if it happened to happen and they had a miracle turnaround and started slaughtering the smaller schools in the class they were relegated to, odds are that worst case they would be there 2 years before they were promoted back to a higher class.  

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

If we use my example in the other thread and move up the top 10 teams in a class every 2 years, the teams that move up are likely going to be teams that won 15 or more regular season games over two years...likely no flukes.  So a team that just starts winning and putting together two, 6-4 seasons is not going to be touched.  No way they will be amongst the top 10 teams in a class with a record like that.

In the English soccer league, the teams that get promoted are often really good teams(relative to all of the teams playing in England), and some bounce back and forth between two leagues over a long period of time, because they are truly "bubble" teams.  One does not see teams just starting to win getting promoted.  They often need years of solid winning before they are able to qualify for one of the promotional spots.   

Concerning relegated teams, with as many classes as we have today, the effect of moving a "bigger" school down in class is lessened.  We won't be seeing schools with 4000 moving down amongst schools with 1500.  The only difference between playing in two classes could be an easier district schedule for a team moving down.  We don't see too many teams with 3 or 4 wins over two seasons making drastic turnarounds, even if they do move down in class as part of reclassification as we know it today.  And if it happened to happen and they had a miracle turnaround and started slaughtering the smaller schools in the class they were relegated to, odds are that worst case they would be there 2 years before they were promoted back to a higher class.  

 

 

 

15 wins over two years is the standard?  So a program like Charlotte, who has a winning season every year and typically wins its district but never goes past the regional final needs to move up to 7a because 6a is too easy for them?  Hardee who has won its district 3 years straight but can't get win a playoff game for some reason needs to move up to 6a from 5a?  Lake Wales, who actually was playing up a class, got left out of the of the playoffs in 2017 despite a 7-3 record but goes 10-2 in 2018 needs to be in 7a?  Braden River, who also fields a great program needs to move up to 8a, despite losing students even though they haven't got past the 2nd round in two years and has never been to the finals?

Think about the effect of your proposal just to help a few newer or struggling programs.  Is this fair to us?

 

 

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On 12/19/2018 at 9:28 PM, DarterBlue2 said:

Very good at soccer. In football, they did have a coach a few years ago, who seemed to be taking them down the right path. Then that ended and they were back to square one ... Celebration is kind of a Disney creation, an upper middle class community. I don't necessarily think the parents want Johnny to get banged up playing football. 

My friend is now the HC of that school (Jay Sobke).  Young guy probably about 30 I think.  Good guy cares about the kids but not much can be done with what they have. 

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