FHSAA football advisory committee/RPI included

[h8r]

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/highschool/os-sp-hs-fhsaa-football-system-0111-story.html

 

lots of things here, 

6 quarter rule is long, long, long overdue,

but adding in rpi type info for playoffs?  does this make it cloudier to find out who is in?  last 2 years you could just keep track of who won and lost and figure out pretty quickly.  

thoughts?

[blackmagic]

So you have to schedule a team, that's going to schedule good teams, and the teams that they scheduled will have to schedule good teams, and those teams will have to schedule good teams, and then those teams will have to schedule good teams, also ...............

So how do you know who to play???

[Perspective]

That 6-quarter rule is going to be an administrative nightmare for somebody.  Does one play in a quarter constitute playing in that quarter?  Who's going to keep track of how many plays and in which quarters a kid played?  I can't wait until the end of the year when some team comes forward claiming a kid played in more than 6 quarters in a week and that this should result in a forfeit for the kid's team, which then results in a loss for that team,  which then changes the Category a team is in, which then affects another teams  Power Ranking Average, which then determines who makes the playoffs (or, if the new rules are in place, affects a team's RPI, which then determines who gets into the playoffs and/or who gets to host and who has to travel). 

I can see it now.  "Uh, Mr. HUDL, there's a process server at the door with a subpoena who needs digital copies of all your varsity and JV game film on Random High School to determine if Johnny Jones played in more than 6 quarters in any week this past season."

Administrative nightmares aside, what's a reasonable recovery period?  In most counties, don't they play JV games on Thursdays and Varsity games on Fridays?  Playing in two games on back-to-back nights is going to be hard on kids.   Yeah, I understand that kids who play 4 quarters of a JV game one night aren't likely to get much playing time the next night in the varsity game.  And kids who are expected to play 4 quarters of a varsity game probably won't be asked to play much in the JV game the night before.  But, still...  coaches looking to gain an edge or win a game have been known to do things that aren't necessarily in every kids' best interests. 

By the way, how are OT's handled?  Are they considered an extra quarter? 

[OldSchoolLion]

RPI system...yet another method to figure out which teams get the pleasure of being eliminated in the first round (see my prior threads on how well, or not-so-well, the "bubble" teams have performed in the playoffs).  

And as far as home field advantage, I believe that has not held back the best teams from winning titles, regardless of how determined.  

[h8r]

the 6 qtr rule is long overdue, but yes someone is going to be paperwork crazy.  and yes those numbers will be fudged.

I asked the same question, is 1 play a quarter?  probably doesnt constitute a full quarter if he was only involved in 1 play, but if he played 4 plays, 1 in each quarter?  is that 4 quarters?  some logistics that needs to be talked about. 

the rpi,,,,,like said above who you played, played, played played, and you get x amount of points for each of those things to warrant wether you made playoffs.

seems like just another ignorant step in the process of determining who should and who shouldnt make it.

leave it the same, just lower the loss points by 5 and you dont have a coin flip for 0-10 team getting in like we did this year.....

we got beat a team that played good teams that played bad teams that played worse teams,,,,,not a good system.  least from what we read so far....

[badbird]

if you play 1 play in a quarter that is a quarter.  lots of coaches are going to accidentally break this rule and some will intentionally do it.   lets be honest it will be hard to track.  

[STILL KRUNK]

HOLY COMPLICATION BATMAN!  LOL

Hey I like that their trying but you have just added: Mandatory filming of JV games.

I still think a well tested power rating like a LAZ or PINKOs would work better.

Seems the RPI is to stop all of us basic math coaches to be able to figure out the process/results to be able to complain about the problems!

[Coach]

Georgia has a 6-quarter rule and it starts on Friday. So, if a kid doesn’t play at all on Friday night they can play a full Freshman/JV game the following week. 

 

I can see it being a pain, but your Friday night kids aren’t likely to play JV ball on a Thursday unless they’re like third-teamers. 

 

Keeping track of it sounds like a nightmare though...

[Perspective]

21 hours ago, Coach said:

Georgia has a 6-quarter rule and it starts on Friday. So, if a kid doesn’t play at all on Friday night they can play a full Freshman/JV game the following week. 

 

I can see it being a pain, but your Friday night kids aren’t likely to play JV ball on a Thursday unless they’re like third-teamers. 

 

Keeping track of it sounds like a nightmare though...

Hmmm, that also means a kid could play 4 quarters in a JV game on Thursday night and then turn around and play 4 quarters in the varsity game the following night, since the "new week" starts on Friday, right?    Again, you wouldn't think a coach would go into the week thinking this, but what if the varsity team loses a couple of starters to injuries mid-way through the first quarter and the kid who played the JV game the night before is the proverbial 'next man up' at that position?

For anyone who ever coached Little League All-Stars, you know how hard it is to make sure that every kid gets their required defensive inning(s) and at-bats.  High school football coaches would be in the same position.  I can just see the finger-pointing that's going to go on when a varsity team has to forfeit a game because the JV coach told the varsity coach that James only played 2 quarters in the JV game because some parent volunteer got distracted at that JV game by a neighbor with some juicy gossip and forgot to mark down that James played in that one Jumbo package in the 3rd quarter when the team needed to pick up a crucial 4th down. 

[Coach]

1 hour ago, Perspective said:

Hmmm, that also means a kid could play 4 quarters in a JV game on Thursday night and then turn around and play 4 quarters in the varsity game the following night, since the "new week" starts on Friday, right?    Again, you wouldn't think a coach would go into the week thinking this, but what if the varsity team loses a couple of starters to injuries mid-way through the first quarter and the kid who played the JV game the night before is the proverbial 'next man up' at that position?

For anyone who ever coached Little League All-Stars, you know how hard it is to make sure that every kid gets their required defensive inning(s) and at-bats.  High school football coaches would be in the same position.  I can just see the finger-pointing that's going to go on when a varsity team has to forfeit a game because the JV coach told the varsity coach that James only played 2 quarters in the JV game because some parent volunteer got distracted at that JV game by a neighbor with some juicy gossip and forgot to mark down that James played in that one Jumbo package in the 3rd quarter when the team needed to pick up a crucial 4th down. 

Technically a kid could play 4 then 4, but they'd have to sit out varsity time the prior week. 

[peezy28]

On 1/11/2019 at 9:42 AM, Perspective said:

That 6-quarter rule is going to be an administrative nightmare for somebody.  Does one play in a quarter constitute playing in that quarter?  Who's going to keep track of how many plays and in which quarters a kid played?  I can't wait until the end of the year when some team comes forward claiming a kid played in more than 6 quarters in a week and that this should result in a forfeit for the kid's team, which then results in a loss for that team,  which then changes the Category a team is in, which then affects another teams  Power Ranking Average, which then determines who makes the playoffs (or, if the new rules are in place, affects a team's RPI, which then determines who gets into the playoffs and/or who gets to host and who has to travel). 

I can see it now.  "Uh, Mr. HUDL, there's a process server at the door with a subpoena who needs digital copies of all your varsity and JV game film on Random High School to determine if Johnny Jones played in more than 6 quarters in any week this past season."

Administrative nightmares aside, what's a reasonable recovery period?  In most counties, don't they play JV games on Thursdays and Varsity games on Fridays?  Playing in two games on back-to-back nights is going to be hard on kids.   Yeah, I understand that kids who play 4 quarters of a JV game one night aren't likely to get much playing time the next night in the varsity game.  And kids who are expected to play 4 quarters of a varsity game probably won't be asked to play much in the JV game the night before.  But, still...  coaches looking to gain an edge or win a game have been known to do things that aren't necessarily in every kids' best interests. 

By the way, how are OT's handled?  Are they considered an extra quarter? 

Be honest your just worried about Plant getting shellacked by this rule LOL.

Nah I get you... this could be a nightmare... They would literally have to set the number of plays which equates a qtr... It will not stop some petty pissed off coach from spending hours on HUDL to find wrong doing and reporting them.

[Perspective]

1 hour ago, peezy28 said:

Be honest your just worried about Plant getting shellacked by this rule LOL.

Nah I get you... this could be a nightmare... They would literally have to set the number of plays which equates a qtr... It will not stop some petty pissed off coach from spending hours on HUDL to find wrong doing and reporting them.

Peezy, I'm much more concerned about the RPI issue than the "6 quarter" one.   As long as I've been around the Plant program, there has been very little (if any) movement of players between the Varsity and the JV until the JV season is over, at which time a small number of JV kids get 'called up' to the varsity to get a taste of varsity football before they move up for good.   Even on the varsity's off week, the varsity coaches won't even let the handful of sophomore varsity players 'play down' for the JV game that week to get game reps. 

Now, the RPI issue is one that concerns me, for the same reason that the power ranking averages have concerned me over the last two years.   As you (and perhaps others on this Board) know, Plant is in the Hillsborough Public School district.  As such, it has little or no control over its regular season schedule.  Which, of course, means that it can't play the game that other schools got real good at real fast and racking up power rating points -- even in a losing effort.  And while a home playoff game instead of a road playoff game vs. Lakeland this past year probably wouldn't have mattered, I'm a firm believer that Plant would have come out ahead of Bartram Trail a year ago had that game been played at Dad's Stadium instead of in Jacksonville.  No disrespect to BT; that's just my view.  In the past, a perennial playoff team could at least count on a late playoffs home game every other year; now, you might not ever get one after the first round.  

[OldSchoolLion]

43 minutes ago, Perspective said:

Peezy, I'm much more concerned about the RPI issue than the "6 quarter" one.   As long as I've been around the Plant program, there has been very little (if any) movement of players between the Varsity and the JV until the JV season is over, at which time a small number of JV kids get 'called up' to the varsity to get a taste of varsity football before they move up for good.   Even on the varsity's off week, the varsity coaches won't even let the handful of sophomore varsity players 'play down' for the JV game that week to get game reps. 

Now, the RPI issue is one that concerns me, for the same reason that the power ranking averages have concerned me over the last two years.   As you (and perhaps others on this Board) know, Plant is in the Hillsborough Public School district.  As such, it has little or no control over its regular season schedule.  Which, of course, means that it can't play the game that other schools got real good at real fast and racking up power rating points -- even in a losing effort.  And while a home playoff game instead of a road playoff game vs. Lakeland this past year probably wouldn't have mattered, I'm a firm believer that Plant would have come out ahead of Bartram Trail a year ago had that game been played at Dad's Stadium instead of in Jacksonville.  No disrespect to BT; that's just my view.  In the past, a perennial playoff team could at least count on a late playoffs home game every other year; now, you might not ever get one after the first round.  

County scheduling restrictions and uneven number of teams in districts potentially skew the results.  For RPI or our current system to work, in theory, such variables cannot exist.  Otherwise, certain teams have built-in handicaps.  

[DisabledAccount]

2 hours ago, Perspective said:

Peezy, I'm much more concerned about the RPI issue than the "6 quarter" one.   As long as I've been around the Plant program, there has been very little (if any) movement of players between the Varsity and the JV until the JV season is over, at which time a small number of JV kids get 'called up' to the varsity to get a taste of varsity football before they move up for good.   Even on the varsity's off week, the varsity coaches won't even let the handful of sophomore varsity players 'play down' for the JV game that week to get game reps. 

Now, the RPI issue is one that concerns me, for the same reason that the power ranking averages have concerned me over the last two years.   As you (and perhaps others on this Board) know, Plant is in the Hillsborough Public School district.  As such, it has little or no control over its regular season schedule.  Which, of course, means that it can't play the game that other schools got real good at real fast and racking up power rating points -- even in a losing effort.  And while a home playoff game instead of a road playoff game vs. Lakeland this past year probably wouldn't have mattered, I'm a firm believer that Plant would have come out ahead of Bartram Trail a year ago had that game been played at Dad's Stadium instead of in Jacksonville.  No disrespect to BT; that's just my view.  In the past, a perennial playoff team could at least count on a late playoffs home game every other year; now, you might not ever get one after the first round.  

If plant was healthy they probably beat them anyway

 

I still think Lakeland or viera would have beaten Bartram Trail especially since either of those 2 would have hosted them

[DisabledAccount]

1 hour ago, OldSchoolLion said:

County scheduling restrictions and uneven number of teams in districts potentially skew the results.  For RPI or our current system to work, in theory, such variables cannot exist.  Otherwise, certain teams have built-in handicaps.  

Every potential system will have it's faults and failures

 

Question is what is more important in a system and what are people willing to sacrifice 

[h8r]

6 quarter rule denied.  ADs stated, policing it would be a nightmare.

but the RPI rankings stuff went thru.

[OldSchoolLion]

Under the new RPI system, would the 4 district champions in a region automatically get the top 4 seeds, as happens with the current system?  Thanks for the help!

[gatorman-uf]

Does anybody else think the new RPI will be a huge mess and almost impossible to actually check and monitor.

Right now, if you just want to check your team's "playoff points," you have to figure out the record of the team in your team's region, who the wins were against, and what were the records of the teams they beat. Honestly, doing one region takes me on about 30-45 minutes once all the games are complete.  In the one region that I followed, I had to look at 99 teams each week. 

Under the new system, I would have to look at not just my team, but my opponent's and my opponent's opponent. We are talking easily 600+ schools each week. No thanks. 

[DisabledAccount]

1 hour ago, OldSchoolLion said:

Under the new RPI system, would the 4 district champions in a region automatically get the top 4 seeds, as happens with the current system?  Thanks for the help!

Yes

 

Fhsaa confirmed that yesterday on Twitter when asked 

[DisabledAccount]

11 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

Does anybody else think the new RPI will be a huge mess and almost impossible to actually check and monitor.

Right now, if you just want to check your team's "playoff points," you have to figure out the record of the team in your team's region, who the wins were against, and what were the records of the teams they beat. Honestly, doing one region takes me on about 30-45 minutes once all the games are complete.  In the one region that I followed, I had to look at 99 teams each week. 

Under the new system, I would have to look at not just my team, but my opponent's and my opponent's opponent. We are talking easily 600+ schools each week. No thanks. 

The point system issues we saw this year could have been fixed by increasing the region sizes in the small classes by having 2 regions instead of 4

 

Instead the brilliant people in charge think we should change to another system, SMH

[DisabledAccount]

1 hour ago, OldSchoolLion said:

Under the new RPI system, would the 4 district champions in a region automatically get the top 4 seeds, as happens with the current system?  Thanks for the help!

Basically only thing changing is how the wild card teams are selected and where they seeded 

 

 

[OldSchoolLion]

Just like the present system, this appears to be a "hybrid" system  using a combination of district championships and RPI for seeding  Just like I suggested for the present system, if it makes sense, then why a hybrid system and not all in, ie use RPI to seed ALL teams?  I am not suggesting that, just curious "why?" 

If the purpose of the new system is to "create better matchups,"...well, some of the most problematic matchups this past season IMO involved teams that were seeded top 4 because they won district, but obviously were much weaker than some of the lower seeds in their region.  So, if we had used RPI this past season, we likely would have had some of the same first round mismatches as below, maybe just involving different lower-seeded teams.

8A

#6 South Dade 49   #3 Hialeah 14

#5 Palmetto 45   #4 Belen Jesuit 7

 

7A

#5 Lee 48   #4 Hagerty 7

#7 Edgewater 65   #2 Buchholz 21

#5 Ft Lauderdale 54   #4 Doral Academy 7

 

6A

#5 Escambia  33   #4 St Augustine 16

#6 Northwestern 31   #3 Mainland 16

 

5A

#5 American Heritage 37   #4 Westwood 14

#6 Immokalee 45   #3 Dunbar 21

 

[OldSchoolLion]

44 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

Does anybody else think the new RPI will be a huge mess and almost impossible to actually check and monitor.

Right now, if you just want to check your team's "playoff points," you have to figure out the record of the team in your team's region, who the wins were against, and what were the records of the teams they beat. Honestly, doing one region takes me on about 30-45 minutes once all the games are complete.  In the one region that I followed, I had to look at 99 teams each week. 

Under the new system, I would have to look at not just my team, but my opponent's and my opponent's opponent. We are talking easily 600+ schools each week. No thanks. 

No problem, Gatorman.  They are way ahead of us.  Each coach will be given a football-shaped computer named "RIPI."    All coach will have to do is "ASK RIPI" and he will get an up-to-the-minute update on the playoff status of his team or any other.   

[OldSchoolLion]

these statements from the RPI FAQ document made me chuckle.

"Furthermore, they felt the previous ranking system, which consisted of your own winning percentage and your opponents’ winning percentage, was shallow."

...don't "they" realize football coaches/fans are shallow people and, in that sense, the old system suited us perfectly.

"A major advantage to the RPI is the transparency that comes along with its accuracy. The components of the formula are known, and its results can be easily replicated. The calculation of the ranking is three layers deep, leading to more accuracy."

...by a PhD mathematician in his spare time.

[OldSchoolLion]

Here is is folks.."Just ask RIPI" for up to the minute RPI numbers, guaranteed 50% or less margin of error.   And for a small fee you can get with one with your team logo.  

One can also pay extra to get the special "bitch and whine" feature.  When coach complains to RIPI about the numbers, RIPI will console you by making statements like "You're right , coach.  This new system sucks."