Willie must go...

[gatorman-uf]

In the last 3-4 years, I don't remember the FSU line looking all the at good (at least from the posts/tweets from FSU friends).
Is it coaching?
Is it recruiting?
Is it playcalling?

I think, at the high school level, I think the best coaches are those that learn to minimize the weaknesses of a team and press the strengths. As a result, some playcalling looks very repetitive.
I think the next thing is the coaching (teaching players the techniques to be successful). At the college level, it is recruiting first as your job is to choose players that can fit your system, followed by playcalling, then coaching. 

[181pl]

On 2/10/2019 at 2:21 PM, Dan in Daytona said:

My reference was to "Perspective's" post on the current head Gator basketball coach getting a few more "SEASONS" to sink or swim. Like your political beliefs 181, you missed the "reasoned" observation. Can't say that I'm really surprised.... 

Willie is the man in charge and the Noles failed to perform. He cannot recruit a QB. These things are on him. I hope he succeeds, but it does not look good.

 

As for  Gator B-Ball, their coach can stay as long as he wants. BD had them humming, but he needed a different path.  Gator basketball is not as important to that school as FSU football is to it. So apples and oranges.

 

Have a good day. Enjoy the 500 if you're going. 

[peezy28]

On 2/11/2019 at 1:44 AM, Dan in Daytona said:

Agreed. The O & D lines are horrendous. The back 7 on defense were lost and covered no one. The QB play (both of them) was weak and very inconsistent. I too expected more from Mr. Taggart. At least a little more intensity and innovation at a minimum. He's under the gun to make a quick turnaround. The clock is ticking. I wish the 'Noles a speedy recovery. 

Actually only DF played last year except for 1 game... That 1 game Blackman through for 400 yards 4 tds and 1 INT and was sent back to the bench the next week (in losing effort but still it was the best QB performance we had all season).

Willie made the original fatal error by starting DF 12 who didn't fit that offense and had regressed immensely since his Freshman season (mind you he was handing the ball off to one of the best to ever do it FSU which opened up the offense).

[peezy28]

On 2/10/2019 at 11:55 PM, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

The roster was pretty bad so I wasn't too surprised by the result

 

What is bothering me is how crappy taggart is in recruiting FL thus far, looks like he just throwing darts at wall and hoping some work out

 

Still lacking a QB 

This recruiting class was not bad... We just did not get a QB (Willies Mistake putting all his egg in 1 basket then it being too late to get the other guys on board) but we addressed a lot of major needs IE LB, DB, OL.

[peezy28]

On 2/11/2019 at 9:48 AM, gatorman-uf said:

In the last 3-4 years, I don't remember the FSU line looking all the at good (at least from the posts/tweets from FSU friends).
Is it coaching?
Is it recruiting?
Is it playcalling?

I think, at the high school level, I think the best coaches are those that learn to minimize the weaknesses of a team and press the strengths. As a result, some playcalling looks very repetitive.
I think the next thing is the coaching (teaching players the techniques to be successful). At the college level, it is recruiting first as your job is to choose players that can fit your system, followed by playcalling, then coaching. 

If you did not personally watch the games then you honestly cannot comment if your just gong off of posts tweets from friends.  This FSU oline has been HORRENDOUS since 14 the year after the title.  Dalvin Cook can run behind swiss cheese and made them look better than they were but the line has been bad.  One year we actually only signed 1 count em ONE olinemen who isn't even with the team anymore when you need to bring in at least 3 or 4 every year.

[peezy28]

1 minute ago, peezy28 said:

I think, at the high school level, I think the best coaches are those that learn to minimize the weaknesses of a team and press the strengths. As a result, some playcalling looks very repetitive.
I think the next thing is the coaching (teaching players the techniques to be successful). At the college level, it is recruiting first as your job is to choose players that can fit your system, followed by playcalling, then coaching. 

However I agree with everything you said above.  Willie did not do a good job of game planning or GMing (roster wise) to try to account for such a bad oline.  Many who defend Willie will say there is nothing he can do (some words famously uttered by Dirk Koetter last  year) but I beg to differ... 

1st Move is no long pass routes unless you can back the D off with playaction (which we could not since we did not have a QB who could run the RPO)

Which leads to 2nd choose a QB who has a quick release so Blackman or Hockman would have faired better as they get the ball out much quicker than DF.  

3rd would be install under the center down blocking running plays... Running out of the shotgun just doesn't work if the Dline penetrates to the QB every play

4th would have been to do away with the WR screens that he seemed to run far too frequently because our WR's either didn't care to or could not block for one another.

[OldSchoolLion]

On 2/7/2019 at 9:30 PM, gatorman-uf said:

Sure, I openly hope that FSU struggles, but FSU was a destination because of the coaches (Bobby and Jimbo), not because of the school or boosters themselves. Jimbo knew this, he tried to get the school to move in the right direction, but they were slow. As a result, they will always be a solid program because of being in the state of Florida, but a national contender on the regular (like Clemson, Bama, Ohio State, Oklahoma)? Those programs have bypassed them and not sure FSU will ever catch them. What makes them stand out? Of the programs in Florida, they are the furthest away from the talent bases. I doubt they can beat Bama and Auburn in that territory.

As UCF gets a larger alumni base, situated in a major city with tons of young affluent people. The popularity of UCF (and USF) will grow. FAU/FIU will never catch them, but we are going to see a changing of the guard here in Florida over the next 10 years. Do I think UCF can maintain their run? Probably not, but they just need to keep playing the nobody believes in us card enough.

---------
On a similar note, I would say Gator Basketball since Billy Donovan left is the same. Sure, they made the Elite 8 2 years ago and the Round 2 last year, but I am not sure they will even qualify this year at this rate, they are back sliding as Billy's recruits leave and Mike White hasn't done anything.

Florida Basketball has always seemed more of a creation of the coach than the program/fans itself. 

For a long time, Tallahassee had a lot to offer.  Bowden was a master of "recruiting" the parents  and many sent their kids to FSU believing they would be treated like family..maybe a family some kids grew up lacking.  Bowden portrayed a fatherly image that many mothers liked for their sons.  Back in the day, many would say Tallahassee had a feel of "Southern values," whereas the Canes promoted the bad boy image in the 80's and Miami was full of drug dealers..sin city. 

 There was a dichotomy that gave the Noles leverage in recruiting certain kids.  Those dynamics have changed. And parents have changed, too..big time.  I think many parents today will send their kids wherever they think they have the best chance of advancing, regardless of other factors.     

[Perspective]

1 hour ago, OldSchoolLion said:

For a long time, Tallahassee had a lot to offer.  Bowden was a master of "recruiting" the parents  and many sent their kids to FSU believing they would be treated like family..maybe a family some kids grew up lacking.  Bowden portrayed a fatherly image that many mothers liked for their sons.  Back in the day, many would say Tallahassee had a feel of "Southern values," whereas the Canes promoted the bad boy image in the 80's and Miami was full of drug dealers..sin city. 

 There was a dichotomy that gave the Noles leverage in recruiting certain kids.  Those dynamics have changed. And parents have changed, too..big time.  I think many parents today will send their kids wherever they think they have the best chance of advancing, regardless of other factors.     

So, you think Cross would have ended up signing with FSU after all (instead of flipping to Maryland) if Bowden had still been there? 

[OldSchoolLion]

38 minutes ago, Perspective said:

So, you think Cross would have ended up signing with FSU after all (instead of flipping to Maryland) if Bowden had still been there? 

LOL I don't think folks today...kids or parents...can fully appreciate some of the older coaches like Bowden, Osborne and Bryant.  Honestly, I don't think Bobby would be nearly as effective today as he was in the past.  There is simply a different value set today.  Bobby came across to folks as very sincere, and it helped him sell FSU.  Today, I think many would question that sincerity.  Folks are getting more and more cynical.  It's as if some expect college coaches to be Type A, cutthroat businessmen, and if they don't act that way, there must be something wrong with them. 

 

 

[DisabledAccount]

1 hour ago, OldSchoolLion said:

LOL I don't think folks today...kids or parents...can fully appreciate some of the older coaches like Bowden, Osborne and Bryant.  Honestly, I don't think Bobby would be nearly as effective today as he was in the past.  There is simply a different value set today.  Bobby came across to folks as very sincere, and it helped him sell FSU.  Today, I think many would question that sincerity.  Folks are getting more and more cynical.  It's as if some expect college coaches to be Type A, cutthroat businessmen, and if they don't act that way, there must be something wrong with them. 

 

 

I stand by fact that bear Bryant is a better bama coach than saban 

[badbird]

41 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

I stand by fact that bear Bryant is a better bama coach than saban 

haha you think it's easier to win now then it was in the 40's-70's?  There were no restrictions on how many kids a school could bring in and not every school was dumping money into the programs because they were not money makers.   You were not even alive when the Bear coached.  So what are you basing your opinion on?  You hate the SEC and Saban?

[DisabledAccount]

54 minutes ago, badbird said:

haha you think it's easier to win now then it was in the 40's-70's?  There were no restrictions on how many kids a school could bring in and not every school was dumping money into the programs because they were not money makers.   You were not even alive when the Bear coached.  So what are you basing your opinion on?  You hate the SEC and Saban?

Because Bear Bryant didn't have to jump ship from one of bama biggest rivals after winning a national title for them in order to keep winning titles, the fact he won a title at one of bama biggest rivals disqualifies him as the best bama coach ever, him winning a title at LSU would be like saying if Steve Spurrier went to FSU and starting piling up national titles after being a national championship coach at UF that he would be considered the best at FSU, you can't be the best coach in that program history when you made your name first at one of their rivals

 

 

 

Plus Bear elevated the bama program, by time saban got there it was already one of the most recognized programs in the nation and was just lacking a coach to give them direction before they could return to winning titles

 

Saban will never in my view be as important to the legacy of bama as Bear Bryant was, without the run Bryant has bama wouldn't have been the huge name it was when saban took over

[badbird]

27 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Because Bear Bryant didn't have to jump ship from one of bama biggest rivals after winning a national title for them in order to keep winning titles, the fact he won a title at one of bama biggest rivals disqualifies him as the best bama coach ever, him winning a title at LSU would be like saying if Steve Spurrier went to FSU and starting piling up national titles after being a national championship coach at UF that he would be considered the best at FSU, you can't be the best coach in that program history when you made your name first at one of their rivals

 

 

 

Plus Bear elevated the bama program, by time saban got there it was already one of the most recognized programs in the nation and was just lacking a coach to give them direction before they could return to winning titles

 

Saban will never in my view be as important to the legacy of bama as Bear Bryant was, without the run Bryant has bama wouldn't have been the huge name it was when saban took over

that's completely different than being a better coach.  Bear's Legacy will never be surpassed at Bama just like Bowdens will not at FSU.   Just so you know Bear Bryant also coached at another SEC team before Bama.  Your first point is irrelevant.

[DisabledAccount]

24 minutes ago, badbird said:

that's completely different than being a better coach.  Bear's Legacy will never be surpassed at Bama just like Bowdens will not at FSU.   Just so you know Bear Bryant also coached at another SEC team before Bama.  Your first point is irrelevant.

Kentucky isn't a rival of bama nor are they in the same division

 

LSU is

[181pl]

15 hours ago, Perspective said:

So, you think Cross would have ended up signing with FSU after all (instead of flipping to Maryland) if Bowden had still been there? 

Parent thing. If Bowden was still there and successful, I'm sure his parents would have had no issue with FSU.

[badbird]

13 hours ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Kentucky isn't a rival of bama nor are they in the same division

 

LSU is

There were not even divisions then silly boy.  Also Georgia Tech and Tulane were in the SEC.  Your point is still irrelevant.  He wasn't at Auburn

[peezy28]

19 hours ago, Perspective said:

So, you think Cross would have ended up signing with FSU after all (instead of flipping to Maryland) if Bowden had still been there? 

Possibly... His dad clearly did not like Taggart for whatever reason... I was not there LOL

[peezy28]

15 hours ago, badbird said:

haha you think it's easier to win now then it was in the 40's-70's?  There were no restrictions on how many kids a school could bring in and not every school was dumping money into the programs because they were not money makers.   You were not even alive when the Bear coached.  So what are you basing your opinion on?  You hate the SEC and Saban?

Plus Bear did not have to recruit or play against black athletes... Just sayin LOL

[Perspective]

13 minutes ago, peezy28 said:

Plus Bear did not have to recruit or play against black athletes... Just sayin LOL

In the early part of your career, you're right, Peezy.  But, things changed in the early '70's after Bama got its butt kicked by USC and Sam Cunningham.  Here's a wikipedia except that explains it better than I can:

"For years, Bryant was accused of racism^[16] for refusing to recruit black players, but he merely said that the prevailing social climate and the overwhelming presence of noted segregationist George C. Wallace, first as governor and then as a presidential candidate, did not let him do this. He finally was able to convince the administration to allow him to do so after scheduling the Tide's 1970 season opener against a strong University of Southern California team led by black fullback Sam Cunningham. Cunningham rushed for 150 yards and three touchdowns in a 42–21 victory against the overmatched Tide. After that season, Bryant was able to recruit Wilbur Jackson as Alabama's first black scholarship player, and junior-college transfer John Mitchell became the first black man to play for Alabama. By 1973, one-third of the team's starters were black, and Mitchell became the Tide's first black coach that season.^{[17][18][19][20]}

In 1971, Bryant began engineering a comeback. This included abandoning Alabama's old power offense for the relatively new wishbone formation. (Darrell Royal, the Texas football coach whose assistant Emory Bellard virtually invented the wishbone, taught Bryant its basics, but Bryant developed successful variations of the wishbone that even Royal had never used.)^{[citation needed]} The change helped make the remainder of the decade a successful one for the Crimson Tide. That season, Alabama went undefeated and earned a #2 ranking, but lost to #1 Nebraska, 38–6 in the Orange Bowl. The team would go on to split national championships in 1973 (Notre Dame defeated Alabama 24-23 in the Sugar Bowl, and the UPI thereafter stopped giving national championships until after all the games for the season had been played – including bowl games) and 1978 (despite losing a regular season matchup against national co-champion USC) and win it outright in 1979 after a 24-9 Sugar Bowl victory over Arkansas.

Bryant coached at Alabama for 25 years, winning six national titles (1961, 1964, 1965, 1973, 1978, and 1979) and thirteen SEC championships. Bryant's win over in-state rival Auburn University, coached by former Bryant assistant Pat Dye on November 28, 1981 was Bryant's 315th as a head coach, which was the most of any head coach at that time. His all-time record as a coach was 323-85-17."

[181pl]

19 minutes ago, peezy28 said:

Plus Bear did not have to recruit or play against black athletes... Just sayin LOL

The hell he didn't. He retired in 82 not 62. He was one of the first SEC coaches to include black players on his team.

[OldSchoolLion]

6 hours ago, peezy28 said:

Plus Bear did not have to recruit or play against black athletes... Just sayin LOL

Y'know, Peezy, if New England didn't have so many white boyz on their offense they might be half decent 

[Dan in Daytona]

On 2/13/2019 at 11:53 AM, Perspective said:

In the early part of your career, you're right, Peezy.  But, things changed in the early '70's after Bama got its butt kicked by USC and Sam Cunningham.  Here's a wikipedia except that explains it better than I can:

"For years, Bryant was accused of racism^[16] for refusing to recruit black players, but he merely said that the prevailing social climate and the overwhelming presence of noted segregationist George C. Wallace, first as governor and then as a presidential candidate, did not let him do this. He finally was able to convince the administration to allow him to do so after scheduling the Tide's 1970 season opener against a strong University of Southern California team led by black fullback Sam Cunningham. Cunningham rushed for 150 yards and three touchdowns in a 42–21 victory against the overmatched Tide. After that season, Bryant was able to recruit Wilbur Jackson as Alabama's first black scholarship player, and junior-college transfer John Mitchell became the first black man to play for Alabama. By 1973, one-third of the team's starters were black, and Mitchell became the Tide's first black coach that season.^{[17][18][19][20]}

In 1971, Bryant began engineering a comeback. This included abandoning Alabama's old power offense for the relatively new wishbone formation. (Darrell Royal, the Texas football coach whose assistant Emory Bellard virtually invented the wishbone, taught Bryant its basics, but Bryant developed successful variations of the wishbone that even Royal had never used.)^{[citation needed]} The change helped make the remainder of the decade a successful one for the Crimson Tide. That season, Alabama went undefeated and earned a #2 ranking, but lost to #1 Nebraska, 38–6 in the Orange Bowl. The team would go on to split national championships in 1973 (Notre Dame defeated Alabama 24-23 in the Sugar Bowl, and the UPI thereafter stopped giving national championships until after all the games for the season had been played – including bowl games) and 1978 (despite losing a regular season matchup against national co-champion USC) and win it outright in 1979 after a 24-9 Sugar Bowl victory over Arkansas.

Bryant coached at Alabama for 25 years, winning six national titles (1961, 1964, 1965, 1973, 1978, and 1979) and thirteen SEC championships. Bryant's win over in-state rival Auburn University, coached by former Bryant assistant Pat Dye on November 28, 1981 was Bryant's 315th as a head coach, which was the most of any head coach at that time. His all-time record as a coach was 323-85-17."

A white Mainland High (Daytona Beach) teammate of mine received a full scholarship from the Bear in 1971. His name was Gary Yelvington. Gary played safety in high school and was a star baseball player too. He came from money and was flying planes (from his backyard) at the age of 16. He (Tightend) never played much at 'Bama but he did graduate.  RB Wilber Jackson was the star player while Gary was there. But the real stud of the team was a little used black running back/ kick returner named Willie Shelby. Teammates were in awe of Willie's athletic abilities. Both he and Wilber went to the NFL. Gary is the owner of Conrad Yelvington Distributors, a muli-state thirty plus rail facilities distributor of aggregate (sand, gravel, cement, rock, etc.). He also owns Yelvington Jet Aviation... how did I miss out on that gravy train ? .......up in smoke    

[peezy28]

On 2/13/2019 at 11:53 AM, Perspective said:

In the early part of your career, you're right, Peezy.  But, things changed in the early '70's after Bama got its butt kicked by USC and Sam Cunningham.  Here's a wikipedia except that explains it better than I can:

"For years, Bryant was accused of racism^[16] for refusing to recruit black players, but he merely said that the prevailing social climate and the overwhelming presence of noted segregationist George C. Wallace, first as governor and then as a presidential candidate, did not let him do this. He finally was able to convince the administration to allow him to do so after scheduling the Tide's 1970 season opener against a strong University of Southern California team led by black fullback Sam Cunningham. Cunningham rushed for 150 yards and three touchdowns in a 42–21 victory against the overmatched Tide. After that season, Bryant was able to recruit Wilbur Jackson as Alabama's first black scholarship player, and junior-college transfer John Mitchell became the first black man to play for Alabama. By 1973, one-third of the team's starters were black, and Mitchell became the Tide's first black coach that season.^{[17][18][19][20]}

In 1971, Bryant began engineering a comeback. This included abandoning Alabama's old power offense for the relatively new wishbone formation. (Darrell Royal, the Texas football coach whose assistant Emory Bellard virtually invented the wishbone, taught Bryant its basics, but Bryant developed successful variations of the wishbone that even Royal had never used.)^{[citation needed]} The change helped make the remainder of the decade a successful one for the Crimson Tide. That season, Alabama went undefeated and earned a #2 ranking, but lost to #1 Nebraska, 38–6 in the Orange Bowl. The team would go on to split national championships in 1973 (Notre Dame defeated Alabama 24-23 in the Sugar Bowl, and the UPI thereafter stopped giving national championships until after all the games for the season had been played – including bowl games) and 1978 (despite losing a regular season matchup against national co-champion USC) and win it outright in 1979 after a 24-9 Sugar Bowl victory over Arkansas.

Bryant coached at Alabama for 25 years, winning six national titles (1961, 1964, 1965, 1973, 1978, and 1979) and thirteen SEC championships. Bryant's win over in-state rival Auburn University, coached by former Bryant assistant Pat Dye on November 28, 1981 was Bryant's 315th as a head coach, which was the most of any head coach at that time. His all-time record as a coach was 323-85-17."

You guys took my statement too literal guess I should have been more clear and said for a large part of his career.  So those 3 in the 60s... yeah a little suspect to me.

Also... What do you think... If the Ole bear didnt go get his butts kicked by USC would he have even started looking at Black players?  Maybe he scheduled that game on purpose knowing what would happen to get the Bama racist Brass in line to allow him to do it because times were changing.  Either that or it was a dang cant beat better join em type thing.

[peezy28]

On 2/13/2019 at 11:57 AM, 181pl said:

The hell he didn't. He retired in 82 not 62. He was one of the first SEC coaches to include black players on his team.

Point here?  Let us not pretend pre 68 didnt exist.  The fact that he had to be the 1st to do it says a lot about those times and America in general.

[peezy28]

On 2/13/2019 at 6:21 PM, OldSchoolLion said:

Y'know, Peezy, if New England didn't have so many white boyz on their offense they might be half decent 

If you show me a Patriot squad that won a Superbowl without the help of black Athletes I will Cashapp a thousand dollars for ever white boy on the team right now.  How about this take ALLL the black players off of Tommy and Bills team and see where they end up...