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THIS_IS_DILLARD

Lack of attendance in high school basketball finals/it should be held at home team gym instead.

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In my humble opinion their is no way as of right the finals for high school basketball should be held at the Lakeland center. Year after year the gym is not even a quarter full let alone half. With both fan bases combined the total barely eclipse 200 people. 

Looking at the games today all u saw was empty seats. The way I see it at this point who ever the home team is should host the championship. Like they do in the nba. A gym that seats over 3000 plus with only 200-250 plus combined fans looks foolish. 

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1 minute ago, badbird said:

same for football

True but at least in football the attendance reaches over 1000 even 2000 these basketball finals are not even reaching at least 200 fans for each fan base. That’s sad!! In that case just have it on campus.

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Just now, badbird said:

1000 in a 60,000 stadium looks bad

That’s how much the citrus bowl holds ?? Oh wow in that case that’s sad to. I’m surprised that even looks normal to the state. 

But yet in other states u have fan bases that would fill at least half of a football stadium like in Texas && etc

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So, how do you determine who the "home team" is?  Do you make a Miami team travel all the way to Pensacola simply because the Pensacola team has a 0.02 advantage in some computer ranking? 

Just asking. 

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29 minutes ago, Perspective said:

So, how do you determine who the "home team" is?  Do you make a Miami team travel all the way to Pensacola simply because the Pensacola team has a 0.02 advantage in some computer ranking? 

Just asking. 

Numerous teams traveled extraordinary distances for state finals back in the day when title games were held at a host school.  When you won under these circumstances, it was an incredible sense of accomplishment. And many a great team lost a title under such circumstances, but one did not often hear them complaining.  Miami Columbus played in title games in Pensacola in 1980 and 1982...and lost both.  The atmosphere at these games had to be experienced to appreciate.   

Today it seems we are obsessed with fairness/equity and I think it is teaching the kids a bad lesson.  More so than ever I hear kids complaining about things "not being fair." There is not an RPI system in life, and the quicker kids learn the better.  In a manner of speaking, the old playoff system was like life.  You had to take what it threw at you and adjust...or be miserable.  If the ultimate purpose of hs football is to teach life lessons, I like the old way...it mirrors life, with all of its inequity that we must learn to overcome.

 

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3 hours ago, Perspective said:

So, how do you determine who the "home team" is?  Do you make a Miami team travel all the way to Pensacola simply because the Pensacola team has a 0.02 advantage in some computer ranking? 

Just asking. 

Record or national rankings.

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3 hours ago, OldSchoolLion said:

Numerous teams traveled extraordinary distances for state finals back in the day when title games were held at a host school.  When you won under these circumstances, it was an incredible sense of accomplishment. And many a great team lost a title under such circumstances, but one did not often hear them complaining.  Miami Columbus played in title games in Pensacola in 1980 and 1982...and lost both.  The atmosphere at these games had to be experienced to appreciate.   

Today it seems we are obsessed with fairness/equity and I think it is teaching the kids a bad lesson.  More so than ever I hear kids complaining about things "not being fair." There is not an RPI system in life, and the quicker kids learn the better.  In a manner of speaking, the old playoff system was like life.  You had to take what it threw at you and adjust...or be miserable.  If the ultimate purpose of hs football is to teach life lessons, I like the old way...it mirrors life, with all of its inequity that we must learn to overcome.

 

Exactly. U said it right bro 

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3 hours ago, OldSchoolLion said:

You had to take what it threw at you and adjust...or be miserable.  If the ultimate purpose of hs football is to teach life lessons, I like the old way...it mirrors life, with all of its inequity that we must learn to overcome.

 

Be careful or @ColumbiaHighFan2017class will yell out you that how unfair it is that Columbia had to travel to Tallahassee or some other nonsense because god forbid that you alternate who has to travel. 

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In basketball there are 587 teams (not counting 1A), shrink down to  7 classifications (1A-Rural plus 6 more).
98 teams in a classifications (one classification has 97). (Goal is 96 teams per class, but 11 schools for an overflow classification is too small).
16 districts per class with 6 teams minimum per district
District Champ and Runner-up (or MaxPreps top 4 non-district champions).
State-Semi Finals should be moved to a local area (North one year, South next year), if the host gym accommodates a certain number of people depending on the class size. 
State Finals should be played in Lakeland (or just a better gym). All in one day, on a Saturday. 

UNF holds 5800
Jacksonville hold 1500
Florida Gulf Coast holds 4600
Rollins College hold 2500
Stetson holds 5000
FAU holds 4500
Bethune-Cookman holds 3000
----
Lakeland holds 8100

All of the gyms are much more traditional basketball arenas. Lakeland Center is not, you sit so high up (even if you are in the front row) that you feel distant from the game compared to a normal gym. 

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3 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

In basketball there are 587 teams (not counting 1A), shrink down to  7 classifications (1A-Rural plus 6 more).
98 teams in a classifications (one classification has 97). (Goal is 96 teams per class, but 11 schools for an overflow classification is too small).
16 districts per class with 6 teams minimum per district
District Champ and Runner-up (or MaxPreps top 4 non-district champions).
State-Semi Finals should be moved to a local area (North one year, South next year), if the host gym accommodates a certain number of people depending on the class size. 
State Finals should be played in Lakeland (or just a better gym). All in one day, on a Saturday. 

UNF holds 5800
Jacksonville hold 1500
Florida Gulf Coast holds 4600
Rollins College hold 2500
Stetson holds 5000
FAU holds 4500
Bethune-Cookman holds 3000
----
Lakeland holds 8100

All of the gyms are much more traditional basketball arenas. Lakeland Center is not, you sit so high up (even if you are in the front row) that you feel distant from the game compared to a normal gym. 

I agree with all that until the last part every gym u named held 1,000 plus people. Don’t you think that would still look odd. The finals in basketball in high school can’t even eclipse 200 people for each fan base. Yesterday it probably barely 200 people combined for both schools. And that was for each matchup until the fan bases improves I don’t think you need a arena or college gymnasium to hold the finals.

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29 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

Be careful or @ColumbiaHighFan2017class will yell out you that how unfair it is that Columbia had to travel to Tallahassee or some other nonsense because god forbid that you alternate who has to travel. 

Hosting a playoff game should be earned not handed 

 

 

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28 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

Be careful or @ColumbiaHighFan2017class will yell out you that how unfair it is that Columbia had to travel to Tallahassee or some other nonsense because god forbid that you alternate who has to travel. 

Between 1995-2007, Columbia made the playoffs 10 times and lost on the road each time (am including their 97 final).  Since then, they are 7-5 in home playoff games 4-4  on the road.  So, if home field advantage is important, Columbia has had a good opportunity to advance over the past 10 years.

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The NFL does it perfectly with how they set up the playoffs, seeding determines who hosts, division champs (like district champs) take top 4 seeds (top 2 get first round bye) than have 2 wild cards going to best 2 records in remaining divisions in the conference 

 

Some conferences get 1 team while another could get 3 teams, all based on record

 

 

But let me guess @gatorman-uf  you think that system of flipping every year is more organized than what the NFL has

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15 minutes ago, THIS_IS_DILLARD said:

I agree with all that until the last part every gym u named held 1,000 plus people. Don’t you think that would still look odd. The finals in basketball in high school can’t even eclipse 200 people for each fan base. Yesterday it probably barely 200 people combined for both schools. And that was for each matchup until the fan bases improves I don’t think you need a arena or college gymnasium to hold the finals.

I think Lakeland is just a bad place to play a basketball game. It isn't a basketball arena, it is meant to have multiple functions. I would take a good guess that a noon game on a Friday would be lightly attended no matter the location. Heck, let's get rid of the district tournament as a whole. Put all 96 teams in a playoff (I know technically the district tournaments are playoffs). And let them play, first two rounds go to the lower seed to allow some potential chaos into the tournament. 

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5 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

Between 1995-2007, Columbia made the playoffs 10 times and lost on the road each time (am including their 97 final).  Since then, they are 7-5 in home playoff games 4-4  on the road.  So, if home field advantage is important, Columbia has had a good opportunity to advance over the past 10 years.

Really depends on the team TBH

 

If your someone like a Vero Beach, St Thomas Aquinas, Miami Northwestern, ect. Who get huge support and are also good teams on top of it then without a doubt home field could be huge

 

If you are someone like Englewood or Terry Parker who sometimes are lucky to get 300-500 in stands than home field may not mean as much

 

But more times than not home field is a advantage for a team

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12 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Hosting a playoff game should be earned not handed 

 

 

With an even playing field, fair enough.  But as you, yourself,have said,it is far from a level playing field in hs football.   Rural areas are at a disadvantage in some cases and I think those folks deserve an opportunity to see a deep playoff game regardless of whatever point system is being used.  Big picture, it is not good for the game if a certain school, ie ST thomas, is always hosting a state semi.  We're not talking the pros where people with big bucks can travel to see their team play.  We are talking kids and poor folks who cannot afford the gas to travel in some cases. I'll gladly have my "more deserving" team travel to such a game if it is in the best interest of the game.   

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4 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

I think Lakeland is just a bad place to play a basketball game. It isn't a basketball arena, it is meant to have multiple functions. I would take a good guess that a noon game on a Friday would be lightly attended no matter the location. Heck, let's get rid of the district tournament as a whole. Put all 96 teams in a playoff (I know technically the district tournaments are playoffs). And let them play, first two rounds go to the lower seed to allow some potential chaos into the tournament. 

I personally wouldn't complain about just throwing every team in there for the heck of it as it may actually be interesting to see if any team at the bottom of the class by playoff time can somehow play spoiler 

 

If it creates buzz it's worth considering

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4 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

The NFL does it perfectly with how they set up the playoffs, seeding determines who hosts, division champs (like district champs) take top 4 seeds (top 2 get first round bye) than have 2 wild cards going to best 2 records in remaining divisions in the conference 

Some conferences get 1 team while another could get 3 teams, all based on record

But let me guess @gatorman-uf  you think that system of flipping every year is more organized than what the NFL has

First, then NFL does it solely based on wins and losses. Are you willing to do that instead of a formula (because that is the whole point of the Playoff Points/RPI system) vs who wins the district on the field, but don't let logic get in the way of your argument. 

Think about the argument you have continuously made over the past 3 years, the Playoff Point System is better than the old district champion/runner-up system. The NFL is system is based solely on who wins the most games (not some RPI/Playoff Points). There are years where the top team is not the strongest or the wildcard team isn't the strongest, but they have more wins. Period. Are you saying that is a better system?

Additionally, the NFL sets up the system so that bad teams are supposed to get more wins the next season and good teams are supposed to get less wins. It is why Jacksonville Jaguars schedule this year was so much harder than the previous year (even beyond the division games). 

Organized? I think the NFL has a total of 11 games they have to put on, so yeah it is going to be more organized vs the FHSAA which has nearly 216 games they have to put on, but yep again. Good argument. 

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2 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

With an even playing field, fair enough.  But as you, yourself,have said,it is far from a level playing field in hs football.   Rural areas are at a disadvantage in some cases and I think those folks deserve an opportunity to see a deep playoff game regardless of whatever point system is being used.  Big picture, it is not good for the game if a certain school, ie ST thomas, is always hosting a state semi.  We're not talking the pros where people with big bucks can travel to see their team play.  We are talking kids and poor folks who cannot afford the gas to travel in some cases. I'll gladly have my "more deserving" team travel to such a game if it is in the best interest of the game.   

Yes it is a uneven playing field but truthfully it wouldn't matter which playoff seeding/site determining system is used 

 

A issue like that isn't going to be fixed by simply flipping each year who hosts a playoff game, to fix that issue we would need a much more risky and radical approach of addressing that issue

 

I'm the type of person who feels a team who proved to be better during the year should be rewarded with that opportunity to host because it's not often that a team will get the opportunity to play a home playoff game in front of their local community and if they proved during the season they were the better team they should be given that opportunity 

 

 

Of course I do also understand the flip side of the travel which I've been in that situation before where I've had to do a serious search effort to travel to a out of town game because it's not like college or pro teams where there may have a fan bus waiting for fans to ride over so you basically have to come up with a plan and hope it can work so you can be there and support the home team as they say lol

 

So I do understand where you coming from and I respect the stance you have even if I don't fully agree with it

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4 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

First, then NFL does it solely based on wins and losses. Are you willing to do that instead of a formula (because that is the whole point of the Playoff Points/RPI system) vs who wins the district on the field, but don't let logic get in the way of your argument. 

Think about the argument you have continuously made over the past 3 years, the Playoff Point System is better than the old district champion/runner-up system. The NFL is system is based solely on who wins the most games (not some RPI/Playoff Points). There are years where the top team is not the strongest or the wildcard team isn't the strongest, but they have more wins. Period. Are you saying that is a better system?

Additionally, the NFL sets up the system so that bad teams are supposed to get more wins the next season and good teams are supposed to get less wins. It is why Jacksonville Jaguars schedule this year was so much harder than the previous year (even beyond the division games). 

Organized? I think the NFL has a total of 11 games they have to put on, so yeah it is going to be more organized vs the FHSAA which has nearly 216 games they have to put on, but yep again. Good argument. 

Is the NFL a perfect system? No

 

Is it better than the flip every year? without a doubt in my mind if for no other reason than the fact it was decided on the field, the division champ who had the best record hosted simple logic

 

Had the previous system set it up where if 2 district champs (or 2 wild card teams) played each other and gave the team with the better record the host I would have been ok with that because it would have rewarded the team who did the best

 

Could some teams game the system? Sure but Almost any system can be gamed if they tried to do it

 

 

And yes they do try to adjust the scheduling and that in combination with the multiple ways to improve in the off-season makes every year feel fresh and not the same story every year (except apparently the Patriots who will probably be deep contenders for as long as Brady and Bill are there)

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9 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

First, then NFL does it solely based on wins and losses. Are you willing to do that instead of a formula (because that is the whole point of the Playoff Points/RPI system) vs who wins the district on the field, but don't let logic get in the way of your argument. 

Think about the argument you have continuously made over the past 3 years, the Playoff Point System is better than the old district champion/runner-up system. The NFL is system is based solely on who wins the most games (not some RPI/Playoff Points). There are years where the top team is not the strongest or the wildcard team isn't the strongest, but they have more wins. Period. Are you saying that is a better system?

Additionally, the NFL sets up the system so that bad teams are supposed to get more wins the next season and good teams are supposed to get less wins. It is why Jacksonville Jaguars schedule this year was so much harder than the previous year (even beyond the division games). 

Organized? I think the NFL has a total of 11 games they have to put on, so yeah it is going to be more organized vs the FHSAA which has nearly 216 games they have to put on, but yep again. Good argument. 

I said before the old system could have been fixed with some tweaks but it was clear they were never going to make said tweaks

 

I also said the issues with the point system could have also been made with a few tweaks and fixing some issues that weren't entirely the fault of the system (like the regions in the small classes being too small)

 

I would like to hope these upcoming systems fix these issues but I'll believe it when I see it

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4 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Yes it is a uneven playing field but truthfully it wouldn't matter which playoff seeding/site determining system is used 

 

A issue like that isn't going to be fixed by simply flipping each year who hosts a playoff game, to fix that issue we would need a much more risky and radical approach of addressing that issue

 

I'm the type of person who feels a team who proved to be better during the year should be rewarded with that opportunity to host because it's not often that a team will get the opportunity to play a home playoff game in front of their local community and if they proved during the season they were the better team they should be given that opportunity 

 

 

Of course I do also understand the flip side of the travel which I've been in that situation before where I've had to do a serious search effort to travel to a out of town game because it's not like college or pro teams where there may have a fan bus waiting for fans to ride over so you basically have to come up with a plan and hope it can work so you can be there and support the home team as they say lol

 

So I do understand where you coming from and I respect the stance you have even if I don't fully agree with it

I don't have a problem with the statement "the better team should host."  The problem is how to determine who is better during the regular season when we have a system that does not consider certain biases, ie scheduling restrictions of certain teams, ie Hillsborough County, uneven districts, teams that don't even play teams from their own classification during the regular season(so no opponent comparisons).  The system is rigged (even if unintentionally) to favor certain teams.

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3 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

I don't have a problem with the statement "the better team should host."  The problem is how to determine who is better during the regular season when we have a system that does not consider certain biases, ie scheduling restrictions of certain teams, ie Hillsborough County, uneven districts, teams that don't even play teams from their own classification during the regular season(so no opponent comparisons).  The system is rigged (even if unintentionally) to favor certain teams.

National rankings and record 

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