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Lakeland Continues Its Domination of SFL


OldSchoolLion

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On 9/21/2019 at 10:35 AM, OldSchoolLion said:

A while back, I asked a question on this board concerning the number of transfers Lakeland got this year and not a single person replied.  I found that lack of response very odd, knowing there is more than one person on this board who is a Lakeland fan.  That caused me to do my own research, which I presented on here, and nobody controverted it, so I assume what I presented was correct.  I wouldn't have gone to the bother had someone simply been transparent.  

Let me make up a little story.  Some folks on here knew the answer, but were too embarrassed to publicly say.  And, if that's indeed the case, I find that laughable.  As I get older, I've come to believe that I should be able to talk publicly about my own actions if I truly feel comfortable with them.  If what these superteams are doing today is perfectly all right, their fans should feel completely open talking about things.  Defensiveness only reinforces that maybe something isn't quite right.  And just because "everyone else is doing it" doesn't make it right. 

To be specific, I have an issue with what Lakeland is doing today...fielding a team that would not look remotely similar without all of their transfers.  And I would say the exact same for several other teams, for whom I have always had respect... until today.  If that's what Lakeland wants to do, go for it...but I think they look silly playing teams who are light years behind them.  

 

 

 

 

   

To be honest, this is why nobody really even cares that Lakeland won other than those "diehard fans" is because it's not even respectable due to the fact that 80% or more of their starters were at different schools for their junior year of HS. Now with that being said, the talent that Demarcus Bowman and others have is undeniable. A couple of those guys are true Lakeland players, but as for the rest it's almost laughable at the players they have on their team who were recruited over. I say recruited because that's exactly what it is. People can say all day that "nobody is recruiting, it's just a better  program...blah blah blah." Coaches are calling parents, boosters are reaching out to people, community people are becoming the "bag guys" for these schools. Like i said, it's why nobody really respects if they win. 

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1 hour ago, NewEraFball said:

To be honest, this is why nobody really even cares that Lakeland won other than those "diehard fans" is because it's not even respectable due to the fact that 80% or more of their starters were at different schools for their junior year of HS. Now with that being said, the talent that Demarcus Bowman and others have is undeniable. A couple of those guys are true Lakeland players, but as for the rest it's almost laughable at the players they have on their team who were recruited over. I say recruited because that's exactly what it is. People can say all day that "nobody is recruiting, it's just a better  program...blah blah blah." Coaches are calling parents, boosters are reaching out to people, community people are becoming the "bag guys" for these schools. Like i said, it's why nobody really respects if they win. 

Well that is basically true of any High School program. Nobody but diehard fans care if any high school wins a championship. LOL

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19 hours ago, Legion37 said:

As a fan I would cheer my team's success. There would be no asterisk next to the title in the record book. I don't hold it against my College teams for taking transfers nor my Pro team picking up free agents as that is how the system works. Right now transfers in HS football can play and are allowed. Lakeland won its title in 1986, in no small measure, by the transfer of the Kathleen QB his senior year (Shane Willis IIRC), a kid I booed the year before, I cheered his success a year later at Dunedin for the 86 state title.

Unless evidence (and not one text from a teenager) could be shown that coaches were directly cheating, false addresses etc... or buying players, then yes that would be a problem. But coaches are paid to win football games within the rules. And that means playing the best starting 22 that gives you the best chance to win.

Ultimately it is still up to the parents to decide what is in the best interest of their child. And if they are willing to make the effort to make a legit transfer, it seems unlikely that there is much that can be done. And unless the kid transfers back after the season, it would be real difficult to prove it was for athletic purposes only. I had friends from Junior High who lived in the Kathleen zone but attended Lakeland because of some legit transfer reasons that had to do with music, so it is allowed for other than athletic purposes too.

As far as legislation, sometimes it is the only thing that will change things. Perhaps a team like Lakeland will go too far and it will force the hands of some governing body. 

I wish the game was like it was in 1984, but it's not, not at any level. 

I can respect this post.  I would be willing to bet no Lakeland coaches are cheating.  That doesn’t mean all the transfers are legal.  Lakeland has a great program and a great coach.

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20 hours ago, Legion37 said:

As a fan I would cheer my team's success. There would be no asterisk next to the title in the record book. I don't hold it against my College teams for taking transfers nor my Pro team picking up free agents as that is how the system works. Right now transfers in HS football can play and are allowed. Lakeland won its title in 1986, in no small measure, by the transfer of the Kathleen QB his senior year (Shane Willis IIRC), a kid I booed the year before, I cheered his success a year later at Dunedin for the 86 state title.

Unless evidence (and not one text from a teenager) could be shown that coaches were directly cheating, false addresses etc... or buying players, then yes that would be a problem. But coaches are paid to win football games within the rules. And that means playing the best starting 22 that gives you the best chance to win.

Ultimately it is still up to the parents to decide what is in the best interest of their child. And if they are willing to make the effort to make a legit transfer, it seems unlikely that there is much that can be done. And unless the kid transfers back after the season, it would be real difficult to prove it was for athletic purposes only. I had friends from Junior High who lived in the Kathleen zone but attended Lakeland because of some legit transfer reasons that had to do with music, so it is allowed for other than athletic purposes too.

As far as legislation, sometimes it is the only thing that will change things. Perhaps a team like Lakeland will go too far and it will force the hands of some governing body. 

I wish the game was like it was in 1984, but it's not, not at any level. 

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.  If we are going to give Lakeland the benefit of the doubt, I think we need to give EVERYONE the benefit of the doubt, unless there is proof of cheating.  No need to point out what others are/are not doing if one's own house is clean, ie "how about Plant?"..."how about south FL?"  etc etc as I have read in some posts(not yours Legion).  

For good reason or not, private schools have been questioned and accused for 50+ years.  Now maybe some public school folks know what it feels like to be in the spotlight....and it's not always fun.  Like the old saying, time for some of their own medicine.  No need to be offended by questioning.  It comes with the territory.  I'm not a private school homer, but I see the hypocrisy that some of the private school folks talk about today. 

From a strictly selfish standpoint, if I am having to accept things the way they are today in the hs game, fine.  But if we are going to have superteams, please act like superteams and don't bore us with 50+ point non-district blowouts.  Picking on totally outclassed teams is boring and leading to disinterest in the game by some fans.    

 

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On 9/22/2019 at 3:21 PM, skyway said:

I know this disappoints you, but, a tweet from a teenager hardly qualifies as fact, or evidence of anything. "Dear Lakeland high school" may refer to another teenager messaging him to come over. Not some official or coach from Lakeland.

I was speaking to a coach today about this very topic. He stated that it is strictly forbidden for coaches to recruit talent from other schools, BUT that doesn't stop the players from a school recruiting friends or acquaintances from other schools. The players do it on the QT. He said all coaches are aware this practice is going on.

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9 hours ago, Legion37 said:

Well that is basically true of any High School program. Nobody but diehard fans care if any high school wins a championship. LOL

That's not true. The students at almost all schools take pride in their teams and love to see them win. Some win following the rules and others ........................

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3 hours ago, badbird said:

I can respect this post.  I would be willing to bet no Lakeland coaches are cheating.  That doesn’t mean all the transfers are legal.  Lakeland has a great program and a great coach.

You sound like Bill Clinton; it all depends on what you mean by "cheating".

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2 hours ago, HornetFan said:

I was speaking to a coach today about this very topic. He stated that it is strictly forbidden for coaches to recruit talent from other schools, BUT that doesn't stop the players from a school recruiting friends or acquaintances from other schools. The players do it on the QT. He said all coaches are aware this practice is going on.

Sure. And that is...life. Happens in all other aspects of K-12 education, higher education and the workplace as well. 

Every single school with great test scores and thus great ratings benefit SIGNIFICANTLY from consistently landing the brightest and most motivated students; every school with poor test scores/ratings is hurt by losing most of the brightest/most motivated students to those other schools. The "culture" at each kind of school is significantly impacted by the makeup of their student bodies. A shit football team almost also always has a losing mentality, while teams that win a lot have a positive attitude. Businesses consistently benefit tremendously from starting from a commanding position through lots of investment $, while those struggling to survive are at an increased disadvantage. Those with lots of money can then pay to get the best employees away from other companies. Wealthy companies can eventually drive other companies out of business through having a lot of leverage and $. And so on..

I find it so incredibly weird that we have message boards full of people who proudly claim to be capitalists, who claim to hate the forced equality of socialism etc, who suddenly do a 180 and come on here and bash families for moving their kids to schools that provide the most resources and best experiences for the kids. It's totally great to try to get your kid into a school that offers a great engineering program, the best band programs, best theater etc. But should the family of a promising football player want to go somewhere that happens to offer a considerably better football program with better resources and services, suddenly you all become bleeding heart socialists begging for everyone to have the same everything.

*I'm actually on the progressive, liberal end of the political spectrum FWIW. 

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10 hours ago, OldSchoolLion said:

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.  If we are going to give Lakeland the benefit of the doubt, I think we need to give EVERYONE the benefit of the doubt, unless there is proof of cheating.  No need to point out what others are/are not doing if one's own house is clean, ie "how about Plant?"..."how about south FL?"  etc etc as I have read in some posts(not yours Legion).  

For good reason or not, private schools have been questioned and accused for 50+ years.  Now maybe some public school folks know what it feels like to be in the spotlight....and it's not always fun.  Like the old saying, time for some of their own medicine.  No need to be offended by questioning.  It comes with the territory.  I'm not a private school homer, but I see the hypocrisy that some of the private school folks talk about today. 

From a strictly selfish standpoint, if I am having to accept things the way they are today in the hs game, fine.  But if we are going to have superteams, please act like superteams and don't bore us with 50+ point non-district blowouts.  Picking on totally outclassed teams is boring and leading to disinterest in the game by some fans.    

 

I certainly do give everyone the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.  And if you aren't happy with superteams picking on totally outclassed teams don't watch the Lakeland/Strawberry Crest game this Friday. I have noticed that Lakeland tends to go through the motions with inferior opponents, which still results in running clocks eventually. That said this could be a running clock before halftime if Lakeland comes full bore. And it's a district game I think...

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8 hours ago, HornetFan said:

That's not true. The students at almost all schools take pride in their teams and love to see them win. Some win following the rules and others ........................

Wouldn't students at a school be automatically classified as diehard fans? And I can tell you that not every student at a school has either pride or cares a hoot about FB. Most but not all.

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11 hours ago, skyway said:

I find it so incredibly weird that we have message boards full of people who proudly claim to be capitalists, who claim to hate the forced equality of socialism etc, who suddenly do a 180 and come on here and bash families for moving their kids to schools that provide the most resources and best experiences for the kids. It's totally great to try to get your kid into a school that offers a great engineering program, the best band programs, best theater etc. But should the family of a promising football player want to go somewhere that happens to offer a considerably better football program with better resources and services, suddenly you all become bleeding heart socialists begging for everyone to have the same everything.

See next post

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It's really quite simple:  when it's your kid, you absolutely want what's best for him and you'll do whatever it takes to make that happen.  When talented kids show up on your school's doorsteps, they were drawn there by the program's history and tradition, the coaches and the prospects of developing the kids into players worthy of D-1 scholarships.   When talented kids show up on another school's doorsteps, they were improperly recruited.  There you have it. 

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15 hours ago, skyway said:

Sure. And that is...life. Happens in all other aspects of K-12 education, higher education and the workplace as well. 

Every single school with great test scores and thus great ratings benefit SIGNIFICANTLY from consistently landing the brightest and most motivated students; every school with poor test scores/ratings is hurt by losing most of the brightest/most motivated students to those other schools. The "culture" at each kind of school is significantly impacted by the makeup of their student bodies. A shit football team almost also always has a losing mentality, while teams that win a lot have a positive attitude. Businesses consistently benefit tremendously from starting from a commanding position through lots of investment $, while those struggling to survive are at an increased disadvantage. Those with lots of money can then pay to get the best employees away from other companies. Wealthy companies can eventually drive other companies out of business through having a lot of leverage and $. And so on..

I find it so incredibly weird that we have message boards full of people who proudly claim to be capitalists, who claim to hate the forced equality of socialism etc, who suddenly do a 180 and come on here and bash families for moving their kids to schools that provide the most resources and best experiences for the kids. It's totally great to try to get your kid into a school that offers a great engineering program, the best band programs, best theater etc. But should the family of a promising football player want to go somewhere that happens to offer a considerably better football program with better resources and services, suddenly you all become bleeding heart socialists begging for everyone to have the same everything.

*I'm actually on the progressive, liberal end of the political spectrum FWIW. 

By your last statement, "*I'm actually on the progressive, liberal end of the political spectrum FWIW" , I understand you're argument for "entitlement" when it comes to taking the fruits of another coach's labor, not sharing in the effort to develop the talent, and using it as if you have every right to benefit from someone else's efforts. As a conservative, I believe that the person who puts in the work should reap the rewards from their efforts.

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9 hours ago, Legion37 said:

Wouldn't students at a school be automatically classified as diehard fans? And I can tell you that not every student at a school has either pride or cares a hoot about FB. Most but not all.

When I was a kid growing up, we learned to fight our own battles, and if we lost, it was us that lost and we accepted that result. The new philosophy of "rent a football player" to wear your school's uniform and play your games for you,  just seems to take something away from the victories. At least with ethical fans, I think it would. It would also bother me that our homegrown kids who have worked hard, put in the effort, and had hopes of playing football for their school, would be shoved aside so an outsider could come in and play in their place. 

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28 minutes ago, HornetFan said:

When I was a kid growing up, we learned to fight our own battles, and if we lost, it was us that lost and we accepted that result. The new philosophy of "rent a football player" to wear your school's uniform and play your games for you,  just seems to take something away from the victories. At least with ethical fans, I think it would. It would also bother me that our homegrown kids who have worked hard, put in the effort, and had hopes of playing football for their school, would be shoved aside so an outsider could come in and play in their place. 

A victory is a victory if it is done within the rules. And a student who attends a school is very much not an outsider, those transfers will be receiving LHS diplomas, just as I did. Military kids sometimes attend 2 or 3 different highs schools due to the nature of that life style. If a transfer comes in and pushes some one out of a position, be it in sports, band, student government, Jrotc, drama...whatever, then it is as it is. Life is not fair. Despite attempts by some to make it so, it just isn't. Nothing unethical at all working within the rules.

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1 hour ago, Legion37 said:

A victory is a victory if it is done within the rules. And a student who attends a school is very much not an outsider, those transfers will be receiving LHS diplomas, just as I did. Military kids sometimes attend 2 or 3 different highs schools due to the nature of that life style. If a transfer comes in and pushes some one out of a position, be it in sports, band, student government, Jrotc, drama...whatever, then it is as it is. Life is not fair. Despite attempts by some to make it so, it just isn't. Nothing unethical at all working within the rules.

Legion, I agree with you on this point.  Clearly, the victory has to be achieved by working/playing within the rules, both on the field and off. And when it's done properly, it deserves to be celebrated.  

As best I can tell, there are a number of people out there (including some on this board and probably the author of this post) who aren't real happy with the rules that currently exist.   But most of us probably know that the only way to change that is through the legislature.  At this time,  I seriously doubt that this subject would be as high on the priority list of most state senators and representatives as it was for the Polk County delegation a few years ago.   It's just a matter of priorities. 

So, as someone else pointed out, the folks in Lakeland are going to have to work extra hard to make sure that they are following the rules, because others will be watching.  Just remember, when you're on top, there's a lot of folks down below you who can look up and see your backside.  Best to make sure it's clean.  :P

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2 hours ago, Legion37 said:

A victory is a victory if it is done within the rules. And a student who attends a school is very much not an outsider, those transfers will be receiving LHS diplomas, just as I did. Military kids sometimes attend 2 or 3 different highs schools due to the nature of that life style. If a transfer comes in and pushes some one out of a position, be it in sports, band, student government, Jrotc, drama...whatever, then it is as it is. Life is not fair. Despite attempts by some to make it so, it just isn't. Nothing unethical at all working within the rules.

Are you serious? Now you have to use military families to justify skirting the rules? How many of the football transfers have started attending Lakeland this year or last year because a parent has transferred to a military base in Lakeland? How many kids in Lakeland HS band or JROTC lost their spots in those groups because the son or daughter of a military person transferred to Lakeland HS? I think it's best you stop trying to defend something that really has no defense.

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2 hours ago, Legion37 said:

A victory is a victory if it is done within the rules. And a student who attends a school is very much not an outsider, those transfers will be receiving LHS diplomas, just as I did. Military kids sometimes attend 2 or 3 different highs schools due to the nature of that life style. If a transfer comes in and pushes some one out of a position, be it in sports, band, student government, Jrotc, drama...whatever, then it is as it is. Life is not fair. Despite attempts by some to make it so, it just isn't. Nothing unethical at all working within the rules.

We could make a list of things that one can do in football that most would likely agree are not sportsmanlike....yet are within the rules.  That has always been the case.  There was a system of honor, though, to keep things in check. 

If hs sports are not about teaching sportsmanship anymore, what exactly are they teaching?   ...and what is the justification/return on investment to the taxpayer out there footing the bills for public schools?  In Texas, there are folks paying $10k/year in taxes toward public education.

IMO, sportsmanship is the biggest justification for hs athletics, since principles of sportsmanship are best learned in sports.  The argument for HS athletics was about fitness, teamwork etc, not about generating college scholarships for athletes.  That said, the further we move away from the original intent of hs athletics, the more unstable the ground becomes beneath our feet...especially in the eyes of the average Joe whose kids are grown or who has none.  

On another note, having come from a military family, please don't compare military kids, whose parent(s) move on behalf of their country, making huge sacrifices, to families moving kids around for their own self-serving gains.  Not a good comparison.  

You are right.  Life is not fair.  But, some of our parents did their best to shield us from the cruel world, at least during our childhood...letting kids be kids.  The quicker they learn the better, some may say.  Drug use and suicide amongst teens has skyrocketed.  Maybe exposing kids to "dog eat dog" systems at an early age causes more harm than good.

 

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1 hour ago, Perspective said:

Legion, I agree with you on this point.  Clearly, the victory has to be achieved by working/playing within the rules, both on the field and off. And when it's done properly, it deserves to be celebrated.  

As best I can tell, there are a number of people out there (including some on this board and probably the author of this post) who aren't real happy with the rules that currently exist.   But most of us probably know that the only way to change that is through the legislature.  At this time,  I seriously doubt that this subject would be as high on the priority list of most state senators and representatives as it was for the Polk County delegation a few years ago.   It's just a matter of priorities. 

So, as someone else pointed out, the folks in Lakeland are going to have to work extra hard to make sure that they are following the rules, because others will be watching.  Just remember, when you're on top, there's a lot of folks down below you who can look up and see your backside.  Best to make sure it's clean.  :P

Beating a team 84-0 and leaving one's starters in after being up 42-0 is within the rules.  Does that deserve to be celebrated?

For the record, I can live with the current rules.  Generally speaking, I would say that many of the good teams today would be good with transfers or without. 

My issue is with some of the behavior I see today, ie coaches not using a common sense, balanced approach to navigating within the current system.  The hypocrisy I see is disappointing...people who bashed private schools for years are now turning around and gaming the system, using the exact same excuses used by private schools for years.    

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5 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

Beating a team 84-0 and leaving one's starters in after being up 42-0 is within the rules.  Does that deserve to be celebrated?

For the record, I can live with the current rules.  Generally speaking, I would say that many of the good teams today would be good with transfers or without. 

My issue is with some of the behavior I see today, ie coaches not using a common sense, balanced approach to navigating within the current system.  The hypocrisy I see is disappointing...people who bashed private schools for years are now turning around and gaming the system, using the exact same excuses used by private schools for years.    

As I see it, these are two different issues:  sportsmanship, on the one hand, and rules on the other hand.  With sportsmanship, there is a judgment factor involved and reasonable people often can have different opinions as to whether something is sportsmanlike or not.  Take, for example, a team who calls a timeout with 3 seconds to go in the half, when they're already up 31-0, to attempt a field goal or perhaps a Hail Mary.  Sportsmanlike?  Probably not, but  I could probably argue the other side of this one under the right set of circumstances.   

Rules, on the other hand, should be black and white.   Either they are being followed or they are being broken.  Either a coach or a player is recruiting or they are not.  Sure, there may be a few gray areas, but by and large, something is either legal or not.

I'm not sure what you mean about the private schools and the excuses being offered up.   I gather, from other posts, that you're talking about the rationalization given for those who make the decision, at some point in their high school football career, to transfer to a private school because that somehow provides them with an opportunity they otherwise would not have had.  Or is it something else?  To be honest, I understand the "we provide a better environment" argument, to a certain extent.  People (adults and high school football players alike) want to be part of something that's successful.  Human nature.  If a kid has an opportunity to be part of a successful high school football program, and the rules permit it, it's kind of hard to fault the kid for moving.  In my opinion, that's why the rules have to prevent it and why all schools - public and private alike - should have to follow the same set of rules. 

If you're referring to something else, please explain. 

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