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Lakeland Continues Its Domination of SFL


OldSchoolLion

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2 minutes ago, Perspective said:

As I see it, these are two different issues:  sportsmanship, on the one hand, and rules on the other hand.  With sportsmanship, there is a judgment factor involved and reasonable people often can have different opinions as to whether something is sportsmanlike or not.  Take, for example, a team who calls a timeout with 3 seconds to go in the half, when they're already up 31-0, to attempt a field goal or perhaps a Hail Mary.  Sportsmanlike?  Probably not, but  I could probably argue the other side of this one under the right set of circumstances.   

Rules, on the other hand, should be black and white.   Either they are being followed or they are being broken.  Either a coach or a player is recruiting or they are not.  Sure, there may be a few gray areas, but by and large, something is either legal or not.

I'm not sure what you mean about the private schools and the excuses being offered up.   I gather, from other posts, that you're talking about the rationalization given for those who make the decision, at some point in their high school football career, to transfer to a private school because that somehow provides them with an opportunity they otherwise would not have had.  Or is it something else?  To be honest, I understand the "we provide a better environment" argument, to a certain extent.  People (adults and high school football players alike) want to be part of something that's successful.  Human nature.  If a kid has an opportunity to be part of a successful high school football program, and the rules permit it, it's kind of hard to fault the kid for moving.  In my opinion, that's why the rules have to prevent it and why all schools - public and private alike - should have to follow the same set of rules. 

If you're referring to something else, please explain. 

Thanks for the discussion.  It's a bit hard to explain, but I'll try.  For years, private schools, in a manner of speaking, played within the rules (playing within the rules = not being charged with violations).  Nonetheless, certain public school folks complained that private schools took things too far(by playing so many "recruits"), and, in that sense, were not very sportsmanlike.  But private schools said, "we're just doing what we are allowed to."  Now I see some public schools doing some of the same things the private school powerhouses did.   "We are doing what we are allowed to so don't blame us(throwing hands in the air)." 

Just because it is allowed doesn't mean it is necessarily sportsmanlike, right?    

Disclaimer-I don't have a dog in the fight, ie private vs public.    

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But in a way all private school kids are "recruits" whether they play a sport or not.  All students at a private school choose to go, usually for lots of reasons other than sports. Private schools are in the business of getting students to attend, period. Private schools need to make profit in order to survive. Some are established enough to have a core of "legacy" families but they still need full numbers and thus actively recruit both the local area and sometimes around the nation. 

When I was leaving Southwest Jr. High (now Middle School) to go to Lakeland High, 1/3 of our team went to Lakeland High, about 1/2 to Kathleen High (depending on which side of US92 you lived on) and the remaining to Santa Fe Catholic HS, including our really good QB. Santa Fe has never been much of a Football power but his parents wanted him to go to Santa Fe for academic reasons. 

Santa Fe, Admiral Farragut and Bolles all had booths set up at our Jr. High at one point or another and were offering up info on their schools, sports etc... to be honest if I had lived closer to Admiral Farragut I might have pressed my parents to go there. 

 

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9 minutes ago, Legion37 said:

But in a way all private school kids are "recruits" whether they play a sport or not.  All students at a private school choose to go, usually for lots of reasons other than sports. Private schools are in the business of getting students to attend, period. Private schools need to make profit in order to survive. Some are established enough to have a core of "legacy" families but they still need full numbers and thus actively recruit both the local area and sometimes around the nation. 

When I was leaving Southwest Jr. High (now Middle School) to go to Lakeland High, 1/3 of our team went to Lakeland High, about 1/2 to Kathleen High (depending on which side of US92 you lived on) and the remaining to Santa Fe Catholic HS, including our really good QB. Santa Fe has never been much of a Football power but his parents wanted him to go to Santa Fe for academic reasons. 

Santa Fe, Admiral Farragut and Bolles all had booths set up at our Jr. High at one point or another and were offering up info on their schools, sports etc... to be honest if I had lived closer to Admiral Farragut I might have pressed my parents to go there. 

 

Agree and well said.  Yet to this day, private schools are maligned because they "recruit" players.  It's funny.  When Bolles and STA started building superteams about 25 years ago...it was "shame on them"...even though, in essence, they were following the rules and just trying to survive.  I wonder how many folks who criticized those private school powerhouses now embrace the idea of superteams?  

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4 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

Agree and well said.  Yet to this day, private schools are maligned because they "recruit" players.  It's funny.  When Bolles and STA started building superteams about 25 years ago...it was "shame on them"...even though, in essence, they were following the rules and just trying to survive.  I wonder how many folks who criticized those private school powerhouses now embrace the idea of superteams?  

Well I am not one who ever criticized private schools or their successes and I am enjoying Lakeland's success, and have for many years. If they have a superteam, time will tell on that, so be it as long as it was assembled within the rules. I cannot control what the parents do with their kids but once they are enrolled at LHS, then they are Dreadnaughts at that point, the (Red) devil where they came from. ;) 

 West Point, the Naval academy and the Air Force Academy recruit players, private colleges as well, why shouldn't private high Schools recruit? 

Why shouldn't a public school kid be allowed to transfer? With charter schools, magnet schools, Culinary Programs and the like... they days of going to a school you are zoned for is becoming something of an archaic idea anyhow. In the former LHS parking lot sits Harrison Center for the Arts, whose students can play sports at Lakeland. 

My friends son went to George Jenkins as that was where he was zoned for but his daughter goes to Lakeland because it offers an Audio Visual Arts Academy, which Jenkins does not. 

 

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39 minutes ago, Legion37 said:

Well I am not one who ever criticized private schools or their successes and I am enjoying Lakeland's success, and have for many years. If they have a superteam, time will tell on that, so be it as long as it was assembled within the rules. I cannot control what the parents do with their kids but once they are enrolled at LHS, then they are Dreadnaughts at that point, the (Red) devil where they came from. ;) 

 West Point, the Naval academy and the Air Force Academy recruit players, private colleges as well, why shouldn't private high Schools recruit? 

Why shouldn't a public school kid be allowed to transfer? With charter schools, magnet schools, Culinary Programs and the like... they days of going to a school you are zoned for is becoming something of an archaic idea anyhow. In the former LHS parking lot sits Harrison Center for the Arts, whose students can play sports at Lakeland. 

My friends son went to George Jenkins as that was where he was zoned for but his daughter goes to Lakeland because it offers an Audio Visual Arts Academy, which Jenkins does not. 

 

No doubt some kids benefit from transferring.  I'm in favor conceptually.  I am just not sure we have a complete understanding of all the costs, both hard and soft.  The biggest concern I have is actually not hs football, but how all of this is impacting our teachers. 

Based on what I gather, some teachers are struggling to accommodate transfers because they came into a new academic curriculum and some kids are ahead of the curve, others behind it.  This really makes it difficult on the teacher.    

From a football standpoint, the transferring might be making the fans of a certain school excited, but the football community as a whole might be suffering.  Look at what has happened in Polk County.  Broward County may be the best example, where consolidation of players at a few private schools has profoundly impacted a number of public schools.  My fear is that as the rich get richer and poor get poorer, interest in hs football by the public will further decline.

 

 

 

 

  

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Football as a whole is likely facing a decline in popularity. The whole CTE situation has put a crimp on things. In 2004, 05 and 06 during Lakeland's run the stadium was packed. Not so much anymore despite the success.

And our teachers have always had to struggle, and lot of great teachers can't pass the certification test, especially the math portion. Why a Drama teacher, who has a bachelors degree, should be proficient in math in order to teach drama or the arts astounds me. 

If our schools were equal then theoretically a junior transferring in should be on par with a junior at the new HS, but alas, very few things are equal.

But the charter school/non traditional public school genie is out of the bottle, for good or bad. 

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14 hours ago, Perspective said:

It's really quite simple:  when it's your kid, you absolutely want what's best for him and you'll do whatever it takes to make that happen.  When talented kids show up on your school's doorsteps, they were drawn there by the program's history and tradition, the coaches and the prospects of developing the kids into players worthy of D-1 scholarships.   When talented kids show up on another school's doorsteps, they were improperly recruited.  There you have it. 

I fully acknowledge the hypocrisy, or double standard, applied by fans on this issue in regards to comparing their teams to the other teams. But, I'm mostly interested in examining the hypocrisy/double standard used by so many self-proclaimed conservatives, proponents of the free market and haters of the "everyone gets a trophy", everyone gets equal everything in talking about prep sports.

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9 hours ago, HornetFan said:

By your last statement, "*I'm actually on the progressive, liberal end of the political spectrum FWIW" , I understand you're argument for "entitlement" when it comes to taking the fruits of another coach's labor, not sharing in the effort to develop the talent, and using it as if you have every right to benefit from someone else's efforts. As a conservative, I believe that the person who puts in the work should reap the rewards from their efforts.

Closer examination should reveal it is the PLAYER that is putting in the lion's share of the work. So, why shouldn't they get to choose where they play? Why shouldn't they get the chance to make a longer commute to go to a place that offers more/better resources, facilities, etc?

Everyone loved bashing Lakeland when several George Jenkins players tried to "move in" to Lakeland's zone several years ago and were banned from playing. Meanwhile, the coach at Jenkins ended up behind bars for sleeping with minors who were students at the school. Maybe that's not the kind of coach they should have to bust their ass for?

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20 hours ago, skyway said:

Closer examination should reveal it is the PLAYER that is putting in the lion's share of the work. So, why shouldn't they get to choose where they play? Why shouldn't they get the chance to make a longer commute to go to a place that offers more/better resources, facilities, etc?

Everyone loved bashing Lakeland when several George Jenkins players tried to "move in" to Lakeland's zone several years ago and were banned from playing. Meanwhile, the coach at Jenkins ended up behind bars for sleeping with minors who were students at the school. Maybe that's not the kind of coach they should have to bust their ass for?

Ok, you've drawn your liberal line in the sand. As long as the coach isn't sleeping with minors, everything else is acceptable as long as Lakeland has a winning team. What do you say to the kids that have put in their training an efforts for 2 or 3 years from 9th grade on and can't get on the field because you're recruiting players from other schools? I'm sure the morale is really great for those local kids. 

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17 minutes ago, HornetFan said:

Ok, you've drawn your liberal line in the sand. As long as the coach isn't sleeping with minors, everything else is acceptable as long as Lakeland has a winning team. What do you say to the kids that have put in their training an efforts for 2 or 3 years from 9th grade on and can't get on the field because you're recruiting players from other schools? I'm sure the morale is really great for those local kids. 

I tell them I put in a lot of hard work in my time as well. I couldn't beat out players (two of whom went on to play in the NBA) despite my best efforts. Such is life. Everyone can't get a trophy, a starting spot, etc. And I'd also tell them that if not being able to beat out the other players bothers them that much, the transfer door swings the other way, too. Pretty sure at least one kid who was on the spring roster transfered out to a private school... 

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2 minutes ago, skyway said:

I tell them I put in a lot of hard work in my time as well. I couldn't beat out players (two of whom went on to play in the NBA) despite my best efforts. Such is life. Everyone can't get a trophy, a starting spot, etc. And I'd also tell them that if not being able to beat out the other players bothers them that much, the transfer door swings the other way, too. Pretty sure at least one kid who was on the spring roster transfered out to a private school... 

The problem with your rationale is that this isn't college football, it's high school football. As for your hard work in your time and being beat out by two future NBA players, were these "imaginary NBA players" local kids or transfers that were recruited by your local public high school?

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15 minutes ago, HornetFan said:

The problem with your rationale is that this isn't college football, it's high school football. As for your hard work in your time and being beat out by two future NBA players, were these "imaginary NBA players" local kids or transfers that were recruited by your local public high school?

They were players on an AAU team I played for many years. One is named Tracy.

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On 9/24/2019 at 9:08 PM, OldSchoolLion said:

No doubt some kids benefit from transferring.  I'm in favor conceptually.  I am just not sure we have a complete understanding of all the costs, both hard and soft.  The biggest concern I have is actually not hs football, but how all of this is impacting our teachers. 

Based on what I gather, some teachers are struggling to accommodate transfers because they came into a new academic curriculum and some kids are ahead of the curve, others behind it.  This really makes it difficult on the teacher.    

From a football standpoint, the transferring might be making the fans of a certain school excited, but the football community as a whole might be suffering.  Look at what has happened in Polk County.  Broward County may be the best example, where consolidation of players at a few private schools has profoundly impacted a number of public schools.  My fear is that as the rich get richer and poor get poorer, interest in hs football by the public will further decline.

 

 

 

 

  

Class size initiative hurt Polk County more than anything else.  Watch what happens when the new (unnamed) high school opens up in Davenport next year. Haines City, Ridge and AAA will battle for the players in that area.  If you think the Hornets are suffering now, HC is done and will never be the same.

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On 9/21/2019 at 8:57 AM, OldSchoolLion said:

Someone recently stated that Lakeland "consistently beat(s) south Fla powers."  There are some folks on the board who routinely ridicule OOS schools who beat up on FL cupcakes so they can say they beat a FL school.  What is the line of thinking of Lakeland scheduling south FL programs who are clearly outclassed?...other than the possible joy it gives some Polk County fans to say it beat up on the big city boys?  I honestly never understood this.  

I would say the line of thinking is that Lakeland played a school with renowned athleticism that SFL I revered for.  If it was just about beating “Big City” boys, Tampa/Orlando are both within a stones throw of Polk County.

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14 hours ago, skyway said:

They were players on an AAU team I played for many years. One is named Tracy.

So you failed to mention that your association with the future NBA players happened in AAU and not in a Florida high school. AAU programs deal solely with athletics and as a private organization, they have nothing to do with transfer or recruiting rules that are applicable to FHSAA schools. 

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8 hours ago, HornetFan said:

So you failed to mention that your association with the future NBA players happened in AAU and not in a Florida high school. AAU programs deal solely with athletics and as a private organization, they have nothing to do with transfer or recruiting rules that are applicable to FHSAA schools. 

Meh. Point is, there are literally millions of HS players across the country who work their tails off, but simply aren't able to beat out some other player with more talent. Sometimes, the player shifted to 2nd string is really good. And, sometimes, they can STILL get noticed and get opportunities. The current starting QB of the University of Florida was a backup in HS...

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59 minutes ago, skyway said:

Meh. Point is, there are literally millions of HS players across the country who work their tails off, but simply aren't able to beat out some other player with more talent. Sometimes, the player shifted to 2nd string is really good. And, sometimes, they can STILL get noticed and get opportunities. The current starting QB of the University of Florida was a backup in HS...

Kyle Trask was a backup in HS and spent 4 years as a backup at UF. Now, let's name another HS backup that received a similar opportunity. For the great majority of HS football players, HS is the end of their football career. By importing players from outside the school, coaches are telling these kids that the coach's football record is more important than the kid's HS experience. 

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2 hours ago, HornetFan said:

Kyle Trask was a backup in HS and spent 4 years as a backup at UF. Now, let's name another HS backup that received a similar opportunity. For the great majority of HS football players, HS is the end of their football career. By importing players from outside the school, coaches are telling these kids that the coach's football record is more important than the kid's HS experience. 

Aaanndd...so what? That's life. You want participation trophies? Such a snowflake idea.

The kid's HS experience had better not hinge on getting a starting position on his sports team. If it does, something is TERRIBLY wrong.

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8 hours ago, HornetFan said:

Kyle Trask was a backup in HS and spent 4 years as a backup at UF. Now, let's name another HS backup that received a similar opportunity. For the great majority of HS football players, HS is the end of their football career. By importing players from outside the school, coaches are telling these kids that the coach's football record is more important than the kid's HS experience. 

Coaches are hired to win football games not enhance the kids HS experience. Now this may be an adjunct to the job, but it is why coaches are fired far more easily than teachers, well one of the reasons.  Anyway you lack depth in your views. 

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On 9/26/2019 at 11:42 PM, skyway said:

Aaanndd...so what? That's life. You want participation trophies? Such a snowflake idea.

The kid's HS experience had better not hinge on getting a starting position on his sports team. If it does, something is TERRIBLY wrong.

I love football, but kids have to understand, it's not as important as a good education. I don't believe in participation awards and for many kids from poor areas that high school championship is just that, a participation award. They won a high school football championship. They may get an athletic scholarship to college; few will graduate with a worthwhile degree and sufficient knowledge to succeed in the workplace. But, you as a fan will cherish that championship; a championship that was earned through no effort on your part.

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On 9/27/2019 at 5:37 AM, Legion37 said:

Coaches are hired to win football games not enhance the kids HS experience. Now this may be an adjunct to the job, but it is why coaches are fired far more easily than teachers, well one of the reasons.  Anyway you lack depth in your views. 

Coaches at public high schools in Florida are hired first to be a teacher of young people; coaching is a secondary task covered by payment of a supplement to the teacher. If you're not a teacher, they are not supposed to make you a head coach. As for lacking depth, you wouldn't care if the coach was a good teacher as long as his team won football games.

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32 minutes ago, HornetFan said:

I love football, but kids have to understand, it's not as important as a good education. I don't believe in participation awards and for many kids from poor areas that high school championship is just that, a participation award. They won a high school football championship. They may get an athletic scholarship to college; few will graduate with a worthwhile degree and sufficient knowledge to succeed in the workplace. But, you as a fan will cherish that championship; a championship that was earned through no effort on your part.

You've apparently completely missed that I shifted the discussion entirely to highlight how f*cked up your state's voucher and school rating system is. By and large, kids aren't getting a better education or better teachers by going to some Christian or charter school over their home school. Allowing-encouraging, even-this movement has the same effect on school's ability to produce a lot of high scores on state tests as it affects a football team's ability to produce a lot of wins or college prospects.

I intended to make this a purely academic, school quality, discussion. Figuring most here are fully tribal in their support of all right-wing talking points, it seems unlikely anyone will change their views on the vouchers/charters discussion. So, as a consolation, you should all STFU about a program like Lakeland doing in the sport of football the exact same thing that a school like, say, Stanton College prep does in academics.

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2 hours ago, skyway said:

You've apparently completely missed that I shifted the discussion entirely to highlight how f*cked up your state's voucher and school rating system is. By and large, kids aren't getting a better education or better teachers by going to some Christian or charter school over their home school. Allowing-encouraging, even-this movement has the same effect on school's ability to produce a lot of high scores on state tests as it affects a football team's ability to produce a lot of wins or college prospects.

I intended to make this a purely academic, school quality, discussion. Figuring most here are fully tribal in their support of all right-wing talking points, it seems unlikely anyone will change their views on the vouchers/charters discussion. So, as a consolation, you should all STFU about a program like Lakeland doing in the sport of football the exact same thing that a school like, say, Stanton College prep does in academics.

I believe that I have always stressed the importance of academics in my posts. I'm not trying to discount the benefits that  kids derive from playing team sports. I do not endorse taxpayers financial support of charter schools or small religious based schools in the state of Florida. We have excellent public high schools all over our state; there are also many excellent private and religious supported schools for those who can afford the tuition. For many years, I followed and admired the football program at Lakeland High School, though I never lived in Lakeland, I knew of their program. The direction they are currently taking is for the benefit of the coach and the old fan base; it isn't necessarily what is best for the student-athlete.

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25 minutes ago, skyway said:

You've apparently completely missed that I shifted the discussion entirely to highlight how f*cked up your state's voucher and school rating system is. By and large, kids aren't getting a better education or better teachers by going to some Christian or charter school over their home school. Allowing-encouraging, even-this movement has the same effect on school's ability to produce a lot of high scores on state tests as it affects a football team's ability to produce a lot of wins or college prospects.

I intended to make this a purely academic, school quality, discussion. Figuring most here are fully tribal in their support of all right-wing talking points, it seems unlikely anyone will change their views on the vouchers/charters discussion. So, as a consolation, you should all STFU about a program like Lakeland doing in the sport of football the exact same thing that a school like, say, Stanton College prep does in academics.

You make a HUGE assumption about people on this forum.  I bet you don't like being put in a box, so maybe you should practice not doing the same of others.   

 

 

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Well parents aren't likely going to go back to the days before charter schools, magnet schools, vouchers and the like.

Even liberals in big cities seek out the "better" schools. Going to the school you are districted for is quickly becoming archaic these days.

That ship has sailed, the genie is out of the bottle and so forth...

 

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