Is Venice the new Madison?

[Perspective]

I've heard recent reports that suggest Venice is following the Madison model.  From what I've heard, a dozen or more of the kids on their team (and not the ones sitting the bench) do not attend Venice High School, but instead are enrolled at a nearby private school that does not have any athletic teams, thus allowing the kids who attend there to play for Venice.   Without throwing any stones or casting any aspersions (especially since FHSAA rules appear to allow it), does anyone on this board know how accurate this is? 

[DisabledAccount]

2 hours ago, Perspective said:

I've heard recent reports that suggest Venice is following the Madison model.  From what I've heard, a dozen or more of the kids on their team (and not the ones sitting the bench) do not attend Venice High School, but instead are enrolled at a nearby private school that does not have any athletic teams, thus allowing the kids who attend there to play for Venice.   Without throwing any stones or casting any aspersions (especially since FHSAA rules appear to allow it), does anyone on this board know how accurate this is? 

Well if they are they clearly aren't doing a good job of it as they didn't seem to drop their numbers even close to enough to move down a class and are still in 7a south with STA lol

[Hwy17]

6 hours ago, Perspective said:

I've heard recent reports that suggest Venice is following the Madison model.  From what I've heard, a dozen or more of the kids on their team (and not the ones sitting the bench) do not attend Venice High School, but instead are enrolled at a nearby private school that does not have any athletic teams, thus allowing the kids who attend there to play for Venice.   Without throwing any stones or casting any aspersions (especially since FHSAA rules appear to allow it), does anyone on this board know how accurate this is? 

They've been robbing from North Port and Lemon Bay for years.

[DisabledAccount]

22 minutes ago, Hwy17 said:

They've been robbing from North Port and Lemon Bay for years.

Those schools have no stability, if it wasn't Venice stealing their players it would be someone else 

[skyway]

7 hours ago, Perspective said:

I've heard recent reports that suggest Venice is following the Madison model.  From what I've heard, a dozen or more of the kids on their team (and not the ones sitting the bench) do not attend Venice High School, but instead are enrolled at a nearby private school that does not have any athletic teams, thus allowing the kids who attend there to play for Venice.   Without throwing any stones or casting any aspersions (especially since FHSAA rules appear to allow it), does anyone on this board know how accurate this is? 

I sure hope this isn't the case. But, I really wouldn't be surprised if it was. We are watching high school sports moving towards extinction. Give it 20 years. Checkback in 2040, and I bet sports for this age group consist of academies and/or AAU style sports specialty groups. The actual high schools will gradually stop investing the time and money.

[DisabledAccount]

1 hour ago, skyway said:

I sure hope this isn't the case. But, I really wouldn't be surprised if it was. We are watching high school sports moving towards extinction. Give it 20 years. Checkback in 2040, and I bet sports for this age group consist of academies and/or AAU style sports specialty groups. The actual high schools will gradually stop investing the time and money.

Most those academies you keep complaining about aren't exactly running successful operations

 

Look at the former superior colligate who seems to have already hit their peak and are going nowhere

 

CAI looks good now but aren't guaranteed to last

 

 

 

Not every academy is gonna be backed financially like IMG is, the only risk the sport has right now is the potential safety concerns but there will be plenty of schools still playing football as it is still the highest generated revenue sports at these high schools

 

You ain't gonna see teams like Columbia end the sport, your not gonna see Lakeland end the sport, your not gonna see Madison end the sport, your not gonna see mainland end the sport, your not gonna see Apopka end the sport

 

 

Any program that is making money and having success ain't gonna drop it if they have a choice 

[Coach]

11 hours ago, skyway said:

I sure hope this isn't the case. But, I really wouldn't be surprised if it was. We are watching high school sports moving towards extinction. Give it 20 years. Checkback in 2040, and I bet sports for this age group consist of academies and/or AAU style sports specialty groups. The actual high schools will gradually stop investing the time and money.

I think that academies are going to rise because people want to make money off of students and parents who are too naive to realize that college coaches do still come talk to and visit with high school coaches. That being said, I cannot imagine any scenario where high schools drop sports (especially like football and basketball) because of these academies. The most I could see in the future would be two separate entities playing for State Titles - one for public schools and one for private, but even that seems like a stretch. Extracurriculars are too important to high schools, especially public high schools, to get rid of the most popular. 

I do get what you're saying though and I believe that these academies are going to end up doing a lot more harm than good for high school athletics.

[Hwy17]

14 hours ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Those schools have no stability, if it wasn't Venice stealing their players it would be someone else 

I'll say this about Lemon Bay; 2018 their qb transfers to Venice. When we played Lemon Bay in 2018 they were winless but played us tough. They had a good defense and decent running game but were lacking a passing game. They finished the season 2-8. In 2017 they were 5-4.  I can't help but think had their qb not had transfered, they would have had a winning season. 

[skyway]

11 hours ago, Coach said:

I think that academies are going to rise because people want to make money off of students and parents who are too naive to realize that college coaches do still come talk to and visit with high school coaches. That being said, I cannot imagine any scenario where high schools drop sports (especially like football and basketball) because of these academies. The most I could see in the future would be two separate entities playing for State Titles - one for public schools and one for private, but even that seems like a stretch. Extracurriculars are too important to high schools, especially public high schools, to get rid of the most popular. 

I do get what you're saying though and I believe that these academies are going to end up doing a lot more harm than good for high school athletics.

Certainly in football, you have two separate trends impacting participation rates. First, there is the CTE matter which figures to lead to a decline. Then, there is the "Super team" phenomenon. The top players are congregating at fewer schools. This makes those teams who lose those players unable to compete, which is not merely "not fun", but also leads to even more danger for players. A QB or RB trying to play behind an OL that is getting thoroughly mauled is at much greater risk for serious injury, for example. Players who are not good enough to be desired by one of the handful of elite powers are going to start giving up the sport entirely. 

Now, there is always the option to follow what we see at colleges. There can be "club" type of sports programs. This allows for teamwork and the general benefits of extracurricular activities to still exist, without schools having to invest as much money for things like traveling to away games, more sophisticated resources etc.

The other sports already see a significant-typically greater-influence of specialty academies and/or AAU teams. Many college and pro scouts in basketball actually skip over talking to HS coaches and instead seek out the AAU coach and handlers. I think schools, public schools anyway, are going to see the handwriting on the wall and let the specialty sports academies do their thing for aspiring pro athletes. This will allow them to fully focus on academics. And you won't see kids transferring around. They can just sign on to whatever academy independent of where they attend high school.

[Coach]

15 hours ago, skyway said:

Certainly in football, you have two separate trends impacting participation rates. First, there is the CTE matter which figures to lead to a decline. Then, there is the "Super team" phenomenon. The top players are congregating at fewer schools. This makes those teams who lose those players unable to compete, which is not merely "not fun", but also leads to even more danger for players. A QB or RB trying to play behind an OL that is getting thoroughly mauled is at much greater risk for serious injury, for example. Players who are not good enough to be desired by one of the handful of elite powers are going to start giving up the sport entirely. 

Now, there is always the option to follow what we see at colleges. There can be "club" type of sports programs. This allows for teamwork and the general benefits of extracurricular activities to still exist, without schools having to invest as much money for things like traveling to away games, more sophisticated resources etc.

The other sports already see a significant-typically greater-influence of specialty academies and/or AAU teams. Many college and pro scouts in basketball actually skip over talking to HS coaches and instead seek out the AAU coach and handlers. I think schools, public schools anyway, are going to see the handwriting on the wall and let the specialty sports academies do their thing for aspiring pro athletes. This will allow them to fully focus on academics. And you won't see kids transferring around. They can just sign on to whatever academy independent of where they attend high school.

You made some really good points in the top part of your post. Safety is an issue when all of the D-1 (heck, even NAIA) talent transfers to one or two schools and everybody else has to piece together a roster with scraps. Nobody wants their 5'10, 180 LB offensive lineman of a son trying to stop a DUDE on a super team.

But, I think public schools - and the athletic programs associated with them - will never get rid of football. There would have to be a major influx of these academies. And I think that public schools offer avenues for all those kids who want to play sports and know they aren't going to go anywhere near the pros (which I'm assuming is a boat a lot of us on this board probably ended up in hahaha). High school is about more than being geared for athletics, so as long as there are enough bodies to field teams safely and enough coaches willing to put in the time, there will be high school football. It might look a lot different in 20 years, but it'll be there.

[skyway]

6 hours ago, Coach said:

You made some really good points in the top part of your post. Safety is an issue when all of the D-1 (heck, even NAIA) talent transfers to one or two schools and everybody else has to piece together a roster with scraps. Nobody wants their 5'10, 180 LB offensive lineman of a son trying to stop a DUDE on a super team.

But, I think public schools - and the athletic programs associated with them - will never get rid of football. There would have to be a major influx of these academies. And I think that public schools offer avenues for all those kids who want to play sports and know they aren't going to go anywhere near the pros (which I'm assuming is a boat a lot of us on this board probably ended up in hahaha). High school is about more than being geared for athletics, so as long as there are enough bodies to field teams safely and enough coaches willing to put in the time, there will be high school football. It might look a lot different in 20 years, but it'll be there.

There has been a clear trend towards specialization throughout society. If you told someone 20-30 years ago that nobody watches the nightly news and nobody gets the local paper delivered for the latest in sports, people would've thought you were crazy. But, along came Sportcenter, and then dozens of other such programs. And the internet exploded shortly thereafter. Now, nobody waits around for the 11pm news to get sports news and scores. Nobody receives the newspaper looking for sports news and scores. 

I think, at some point a couple of decades from now, nobody will look to a school sports team to further a career in that sport. Casual participants will be happy with a sort of club version of the sport. The more ambitious players will seek out academies that are separate from schools.

[DisabledAccount]

38 minutes ago, skyway said:

There has been a clear trend towards specialization throughout society. If you told someone 20-30 years ago that nobody watches the nightly news and nobody gets the local paper delivered for the latest in sports, people would've thought you were crazy. But, along came Sportcenter, and then dozens of other such programs. And the internet exploded shortly thereafter. Now, nobody waits around for the 11pm news to get sports news and scores. Nobody receives the newspaper looking for sports news and scores. 

I think, at some point a couple of decades from now, nobody will look to a school sports team to further a career in that sport. Casual participants will be happy with a sort of club version of the sport. The more ambitious players will seek out academies that are separate from schools.

Hey now, I still get the lake City reporter for my sports (though I hope to increase coverage on my website in the future)

 

...........

 

I disagree, I think there will still be plenty of high schools who are able field teams, especially ones with a good track record of getting players to the next level

 

If academies are so popular then why isn't IMG snatching players from teams like Miami northwestern, sta, ahp, Miami Central, armwood, hell Lakeland even had a kid leave IMG and come back to his home school

 

 

The only teams who will lose players are ones with no stability or ones with no track record of success, the ones who have long established themselves as schools who are going to get players to the next level will still be successful in fact it means those said Schools will be better because they will have less competition standing in their way 

[skyway]

2 hours ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Hey now, I still get the lake City reporter for my sports (though I hope to increase coverage on my website in the future)

 

...........

 

I disagree, I think there will still be plenty of high schools who are able field teams, especially ones with a good track record of getting players to the next level

 

If academies are so popular then why isn't IMG snatching players from teams like Miami northwestern, sta, ahp, Miami Central, armwood, hell Lakeland even had a kid leave IMG and come back to his home school

 

 

The only teams who will lose players are ones with no stability or ones with no track record of success, the ones who have long established themselves as schools who are going to get players to the next level will still be successful in fact it means those said Schools will be better because they will have less competition standing in their way 

You're talking about this exact moment in time. I'm anticipating 20-30 years from now.

IMG took the top player from Mater Dei last year (though Bryce Young ended up being more highly ranked in some circles). They took Armwood's top player for next year (Agiye Hall). Preferences will vary from player to player. But, if they can get the top players on Mater Dei and Armwood, they are able to get players from any program. 

[DisabledAccount]

13 minutes ago, skyway said:

You're talking about this exact moment in time. I'm anticipating 20-30 years from now.

IMG took the top player from Mater Dei last year (though Bryce Young ended up being more highly ranked in some circles). They took Armwood's top player for next year (Agiye Hall). Preferences will vary from player to player. But, if they can get the top players on Mater Dei and Armwood, they are able to get players from any program. 

For starters armwood and mater dei aren't the same tier of program 

 

And second no that doesn't prove that because you don't know how much loyalty is in some of these programs, there are kids out there who are studs and have absolutely 0 interest in playing for some wannabe all star team like IMG academy because they recognize they don't need IMG to make themselves a star and many players in Florida are realizing this 

[skyway]

19 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

For starters armwood and mater dei aren't the same tier of program 

 

And second no that doesn't prove that because you don't know how much loyalty is in some of these programs, there are kids out there who are studs and have absolutely 0 interest in playing for some wannabe all star team like IMG academy because they recognize they don't need IMG to make themselves a star and many players in Florida are realizing this 

That Armwood and Mater Dei are on different tiers is totally irrelevant to the discussion here. IMG took the best players from BOTH of them. 

The rest of your post simply follows what I said above. 

Players appear headed to the top programs that they can be used in. Whether that be a Spoto player going to Wiregrass Ranch, a Wiregrass Ranch player going to Armwood, or an Armwood player going to IMG, the result is that there are fewer programs with enough good players to be remotely competitive. Gradually, over time, players who can jump out of a non-competitive program to one that is competing will do so. Eventually, the school they left is going to end up short enough of a squad to justify the money and practice time. First, only the Spoto's will drop the sport. Then, schools like Wiregrass may be in the same boat down the road. And then the Armwood's are going to start to have a hard time filling a schedule. By then, more academies will have formed. There will be enough of them to play a full schedule playing teams exclusively like themselves. And they will operate entirely outside the scope of state associations like the FHSAA. And the kids at those top public programs like Armwood will look around and realize they can get more specialized training at an academy. A public school with a very limited budget doesn't figure to be able to keep up forever.

Again, I'm talking about what may happen by, say, 2050. So, responding with observations about what is happening right now in 2020 will...ensure you get the last word, which may be your priority anyway. 

[DisabledAccount]

12 hours ago, skyway said:

That Armwood and Mater Dei are on different tiers is totally irrelevant to the discussion here. IMG took the best players from BOTH of them. 

The rest of your post simply follows what I said above. 

Players appear headed to the top programs that they can be used in. Whether that be a Spoto player going to Wiregrass Ranch, a Wiregrass Ranch player going to Armwood, or an Armwood player going to IMG, the result is that there are fewer programs with enough good players to be remotely competitive. Gradually, over time, players who can jump out of a non-competitive program to one that is competing will do so. Eventually, the school they left is going to end up short enough of a squad to justify the money and practice time. First, only the Spoto's will drop the sport. Then, schools like Wiregrass may be in the same boat down the road. And then the Armwood's are going to start to have a hard time filling a schedule. By then, more academies will have formed. There will be enough of them to play a full schedule playing teams exclusively like themselves. And they will operate entirely outside the scope of state associations like the FHSAA. And the kids at those top public programs like Armwood will look around and realize they can get more specialized training at an academy. A public school with a very limited budget doesn't figure to be able to keep up forever.

Again, I'm talking about what may happen by, say, 2050. So, responding with observations about what is happening right now in 2020 will...ensure you get the last word, which may be your priority anyway. 

Ik you were talking about down the line but it don't change it IMO

 

There have been academies around for decades in sports like basketball and baseball for example and football is now seeing the same thing, but you make it sound like every academy will have the success of IMG when it comes to attracting talent

 

There's been tons of academies for football lately and only IMG has been successful at getting top level talent, why? Because most of the people starting them either don't know how to run a program or don't have the financial support to last long term

[CommomSense]

So, responding with observations about what is happening right now in 2020 will...ensure you get the last word, which may be your priority anyway. 

BINGO!!!!