Edgewater V IMG

[Jambun82]

11 hours ago, HornetFan said:

I watched the IMG - Venice game last night. I was surprised how ell Venice played despite the size differential in their lines. The referees basically shut down IMG in the 2nd quarter. There were some penalties,but it was kind of ridiculous that almost every big play in that quarter was called back by the referees. Even more amazing was that Venice committed no penalties in that quarter. IMG is loaded with talent, but some of their play was sloppy. When they meet Edgewater at IMG, it will be IMG's third game of the season, Edgewater's first game; that will hurt Edgewater. I see IMG winning, but not in a blowout like the Venice game.

HornetFan, could you provide some more examples of the issues that you had with the officiating? Thank you.

[HornetFan]

17 minutes ago, Jambun82 said:

HornetFan, could you provide some more examples of the issues that you had with the officiating? Thank you.

If you watched the game, even the commentators said some of the calls against IMG in the 2nd quarter were suspect and very timely. I thought it was a bit unusual that IMG had bigger and more talented players on their lines and they were being called for holding on almost every big play. Venice never quit and I think the "what seemed like home cooking" officiating in that 2nd quarter actually took away from a great effort by Venice; they didn't need the officials to bail them out. They were being beat, but they were playing hard.

[Jambun82]

12 minutes ago, HornetFan said:

If you watched the game, even the commentators said some of the calls against IMG in the 2nd quarter were suspect and very timely. I thought it was a bit unusual that IMG had bigger and more talented players on their lines and they were being called for holding on almost every big play. Venice never quit and I think the "what seemed like home cooking" officiating in that 2nd quarter actually took away from a great effort by Venice; they didn't need the officials to bail them out. They were being beat, but they were playing hard.

Thank you HornetFan, but if you start believing commentators when it comes to officiating, you will be disappointed. Also, you will find that "home cooking" officiating is not as prevalent as some would believe. Most officials could care less about which team wins any particular game. Unfortunately, I missed the game.  

[Legion37]

7 hours ago, Jambun82 said:

Thank you HornetFan, but if you start believing commentators when it comes to officiating, you will be disappointed. Also, you will find that "home cooking" officiating is not as prevalent as some would believe. Most officials could care less about which team wins any particular game. Unfortunately, I missed the game.  

Defending officiating is a pointless exercise. Home cooking is prevalent enough that it doesn't go away year in and year out. And commentators have eyes too. I agree most officials could care less about who wins the game but until it is ALL officials (which it will never be) then missed calls, bad calls and sometimes missed and bad calls purposely made will be part of the game! 

[Proseteye]

How can there be "home cooking"? I thought that the referees always come from a different area than where they are officiating? Unless one of the officials is making a monetary bet on a specific team, which of course is illegal, what would be in it for them to give preference to one team or the other? Just asking. 

[Legion37]

Play a game in Plant City and you'll see. Hillsborough county has plenty of issues as well.

[HornetFan]

12 hours ago, Jambun82 said:

Thank you HornetFan, but if you start believing commentators when it comes to officiating, you will be disappointed. Also, you will find that "home cooking" officiating is not as prevalent as some would believe. Most officials could care less about which team wins any particular game. Unfortunately, I missed the game.  

Check ESPN listings this week. They repeat some of the games during the week. I would think they would do so with the #1 team in the country.

[HornetFan]

2 hours ago, Proseteye said:

How can there be "home cooking"? I thought that the referees always come from a different area than where they are officiating? Unless one of the officials is making a monetary bet on a specific team, which of course is illegal, what would be in it for them to give preference to one team or the other? Just asking. 

If it were true they came from a different area, why do we see the same referees here in Orlando area game after game? They may come from a town or two over from where the game is being played, but that doesn't change where they went to school, or where their kids went to school, or if they have a school they prefer over another, to put it as nicely as I can. I'd venture to guess that referees are fans too. They should put that aside when they step on the field, but do all of them do that? I'm sure "most" do, and that's commendable.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Proseteye said:

How can there be "home cooking"? I thought that the referees always come from a different area than where they are officiating? Unless one of the officials is making a monetary bet on a specific team, which of course is illegal, what would be in it for them to give preference to one team or the other? Just asking. 

Only in playoffs

[HornetFan]

2 hours ago, Just A Coach said:

Only in playoffs

So during the regular season, they can be locals; that's where you get the home cooking, especially if they want the local team to look good against a national power.

[Jambun82]

16 hours ago, Legion37 said:

Defending officiating is a pointless exercise. Home cooking is prevalent enough that it doesn't go away year in and year out. And commentators have eyes too. I agree most officials could care less about who wins the game but until it is ALL officials (which it will never be) then missed calls, bad calls and sometimes missed and bad calls purposely made will be part of the game! 

Yes, commentators have eyes, but most commentators don't understand rules that might be specific to NFHS. Also, most commentators look at slow-motion replays several times while dissecting a call/foul,  a luxury that officials do not have. I don't know how you make a statement that "home cooking is prevalent enough that it doesn't go away year in and year out", but then again, I have been to Bryant Stadium a few times, and have seen the behavior sometimes exhibited there. The FHSAA will never get ALL officials to be 100% unbiased I would agree, but the first per-game raise that high school football officials in Florida have received in 13 years will help maybe recruit and retain better officials. Defending officiating has NEVER been a pointless exercise for me.

[Jambun82]

14 hours ago, Proseteye said:

How can there be "home cooking"? I thought that the referees always come from a different area than where they are officiating? Unless one of the officials is making a monetary bet on a specific team, which of course is illegal, what would be in it for them to give preference to one team or the other? Just asking. 

Proseteye, that is only for the postseason. Most officials have day jobs, and might not get off of work until around 5:00 pm, so it would be hard for them to travel, especially on roads such as I-4 on a Friday. The only possible reason that an official might commit "home cooking" as it is called, is because some Head Coaches and ADs have been known to threaten officials that their contract with their Association will not be renewed, or a specific official will be "scratched" from officiating any more of that teams games if the coach does not get officiating more to their liking. It is very rare, and I would say that the great majority of High School Football Coaches are fair-minded, and are involved for the players, but that is not true of all coaches.

[Jambun82]

7 hours ago, HornetFan said:

So during the regular season, they can be locals; that's where you get the home cooking, especially if they want the local team to look good against a national power.

HornetFan most officials wouldn't even know what kind of power IMG is. Most officials don't follow High School Football like posters to this message board do.  

[Jambun82]

11 hours ago, HornetFan said:

If it were true they came from a different area, why do we see the same referees here in Orlando area game after game? They may come from a town or two over from where the game is being played, but that doesn't change where they went to school, or where their kids went to school, or if they have a school they prefer over another, to put it as nicely as I can. I'd venture to guess that referees are fans too. They should put that aside when they step on the field, but do all of them do that? I'm sure "most" do, and that's commendable.

HornetFan, one of the reasons that a school like Bishop Moore might see the same officials most weeks is because the Assigner for officials knows the that Hornets are a perennial playoff team, and therefore they should be provided some of the better officials in the Association for most of their games. This would also be true of Apopka, Edgewater, Seminole, First Academy etc.

[Proseteye]

15 minutes ago, Jambun82 said:

HornetFan, one of the reasons that a school like Bishop Moore might see the same officials most weeks is because the Assigner for officials knows the that Hornets are a perennial playoff team, and therefore they should be provided some of the better officials in the Association for most of their games. This would also be true of Apopka, Edgewater, Seminole, First Academy etc.

But, are those officials allowed to be from the county that Bishop Moore is located in? Does the FHSAA have rules about referees not being from the area they are officiating in?

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, Jambun82 said:

Yes, commentators have eyes, but most commentators don't understand rules that might be specific to NFHS. Also, most commentators look at slow-motion replays several times while dissecting a call/foul,  a luxury that officials do not have. I don't know how you make a statement that "home cooking is prevalent enough that it doesn't go away year in and year out", but then again, I have been to Bryant Stadium a few times, and have seen the behavior sometimes exhibited there. The FHSAA will never get ALL officials to be 100% unbiased I would agree, but the first per-game raise that high school football officials in Florida have received in 13 years will help maybe recruit and retain better officials. Defending officiating has NEVER been a pointless exercise for me.

Jambun I agree 100% with that statement. I have seen what I thought was or wasn't a penalty from my point of view on the sideline. Once I reviewed the film my opinion changed. I have always felt that commentators do not always take game speed into consideration when a call is made by the ref.

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, Jambun82 said:

HornetFan most officials wouldn't even know what kind of power IMG is. Most officials don't follow High School Football like posters to this message board do.  

But in contrast to my above post, I disagree on this statement 100%. I find it extremely hard that an official would not know that IMG is a power. In fact, you stated that the better refs are assigned to the better teams. These refs have a very clear understanding of the type of teams they are officiating. 

[Perspective]

Over the years, I've had some great conversations with refs.  From those conversations, I can assure you they know a lot.  They know who the good teams are.  They know who the good coaches are.  They know who the bad teams and coaches are.  They know which coaches are a pain in the azz.   I'd bet my bottom dollar the crew that did the IMG/Venice game knew that IMG was nationally ranked first and that Venice was ranked high in pre-season polls. 

I've also seen some things.  I've seen refs greet coaches and AD's like long-lost brothers an hour before the game starts and before the crowd has arrived (and sometimes before the other teams has taken the field).   I've overheard refs telling each other ahead of time to not give this coach or that player any slack.  I've heard a coach tell a ref "we'll talk about that call at church on Sunday."  I've heard refs bragging after a game ("I told you I'd teach that coach a lesson").   But I've also heard (as late as this past Friday night) a sideline official communicating with coaches and players in a most excellent way (letting a player know when he did a good job pulling up and avoiding what would have been a late hit, reminding coaches -- more than once --  that players could go down to the 15-yard line, but coaches still had to stay between the 25's, etc.). 

Lest we forget, officials are people, too.  They come to games with their own personalities, preconceived notions, biases and prejudices.  Some of them have been doing the job for years and know the coaches and the coaches know them.   They've worked together at seminars or workshops.  Or they know each other because of their respective day jobs.  Coaches hire officials for 7 on 7 games and tournaments.  Sometimes these relationships work to a coach's benefit; sometimes they work against him. 

In my opinion, the smaller the area, the more likely it is that coaches and refs will know each other.  Larger metropolitan areas generally have larger official associations and are more likely to get different crews every week.  It makes it harder to develop a relationship with any of the refs, including the white hat, when you only see a crew once every year or two.  Smaller areas often see the same crews 2 or 3 times a year, if not more. 

And here's my parting shot.  As I said, refs are humans, too.   In a split second, they have to decide whether to make a call or not.  If they "like" a particular coach, they're more like to make that split-second call in a way that benefits the guy or team they like.  Human nature.  It's the exact reason why the FHSAA assigns independent crews from outside the area of the teams involved in playoffs games.  That way, they avoid both the appearance of impropriety and impropriety itself -- for the most part.  

I truly believe that the vast majority of officials show up at a game planning on being 100% neutral and planning to do their best to call the game this way.  But they simply cannot avoid the fact that they are humans, not computers.  At least not yet.    

[HornetFan]

12 hours ago, Jambun82 said:

HornetFan most officials wouldn't even know what kind of power IMG is. Most officials don't follow High School Football like posters to this message board do.  

I find it hard to believe that any referee wouldn't know that he/she was officiating in a game involving the #1 team in the country.

[HornetFan]

11 hours ago, Just A Coach said:

Jambun I agree 100% with that statement. I have seen what I thought was or wasn't a penalty from my point of view on the sideline. Once I reviewed the film my opinion changed. I have always felt that commentators do not always take game speed into consideration when a call is made by the ref.

Commentators have the benefit of replay and can run the play over for the TV fans while calling out obvious miscalls. I realize officials don't have the advantage of instant replay and are calling them as they see them at game speed or maybe how they would "like to see them". Sometimes it difficult to overcome a bias

[Proseteye]

High School referees I believe are mostly volunteers. Get paid nothing or a little something to cover their traveling expenses. These people should be praised regardless of their play calling. However, most fans treat them pretty badly. I have been at games where the refs were threatened with bodily harm or where extreme vulgarities were thrown their way. At Trinity Catholic the Rector put out a statement that we don't boo and/or direct disparaging remarks at the referees. It worked as most fans now follow that policy.

[HornetFan]

2 hours ago, Proseteye said:

High School referees I believe are mostly volunteers. Get paid nothing or a little something to cover their traveling expenses. These people should be praised regardless of their play calling. However, most fans treat them pretty badly. I have been at games where the refs were threatened with bodily harm or where extreme vulgarities were thrown their way. At Trinity Catholic the Rector put out a statement that we don't boo and/or direct disparaging remarks at the referees. It worked as most fans now follow that policy.

High school referees are definitely paid. I have a friend who referees soccer at high school level and he gets paid; they also get paid for club level games. They should never be threatened with bodily harm or be the subject of profanities, but if referees can't take booing from the fans, they're in the wrong position. If they call a good game, fine, let the coaches tell them so after completion of the game. If they were partial to one team or blew several critical calls, they have to be told that too. Being a referee isn't for wimps; they don't get a participation award. The best referees are hardly noticeable during a game.

[Proseteye]

1 hour ago, HornetFan said:

High school referees are definitely paid. I have a friend who referees soccer at high school level and he gets paid; they also get paid for club level games. They should never be threatened with bodily harm or be the subject of profanities, but if referees can't take booing from the fans, they're in the wrong position. If they call a good game, fine, let the coaches tell them so after completion of the game. If they were partial to one team or blew several critical calls, they have to be told that too. Being a referee isn't for wimps; they don't get a participation award. The best referees are hardly noticeable during a game.

I didn't say that the referees shouldn't take booing. I said that the Rector of the school did not appreciate the fans booing. The reason, I am supposing, is that it did not reflect well on the school which is a religious institution and was keeping with their Christian values. I am not opposed to booing. I am opposed to derogatory remarks shouted toward the officials. I have been to some other school's football games and the crowds get pretty rowdy and offensive at the officials. And, come on, how much do these referees actually get per game. I'll bet it's not even enough to pay for their traveling expenses. Would you give up your Friday evenings to voluntarily officiate in front of people that don't respect you? Have you ever taken the time to be a referee of a high school football game?

[Guest]

Proset, I believe they just got a pay raise in January. I think it went from $65 to $110 per regular season game. A lot of officials make decent money on the weekends doing youth league games as well. So with freshman, JV, varsity and youth league games they can make a decent chunk.

[Jambun82]

22 hours ago, Proseteye said:

But, are those officials allowed to be from the county that Bishop Moore is located in? Does the FHSAA have rules about referees not being from the area they are officiating in?

Yes, officials are allowed to reside in the same county of the location of games that they are officiating. Officials cannot officiate any particular teams/schools in which they have any family working or attending. Also, officials cannot officiate any team/school in which that official has graduated in the past 7 years.