An unfortunate Hit

[DarterBlue2]

So, Boone is up by 14 against VB with 8 minutes left in the game. It is third down and long. The VB QB throws a high pass to the right side of the field. Neither the reviver nor the defensive back can reach it. the DB hits the receiver hard as the ball goes well over their heads. What should no be a fourth and long turns into a fifteen yard personal foul penalty. VB scores about 40 seconds later. Then scores again with 2 minutes left to tie the game. Game goes into OT and VB wins when Boone's extra point try to tie the game at 35 apiece is blocked by VB's special teams.

Moral of the story: There is no need to commit unnecessary fouls. It can, and often does, cost you the game. 

[AmstaffNole]

8 hours ago, DarterBlue2 said:

So, Boone is up by 14 against VB with 8 minutes left in the game. It is third down and long. The VB QB throws a high pass to the right side of the field. Neither the reviver nor the defensive back can reach it. the DB hits the receiver hard as the ball goes well over their heads. What should no be a fourth and long turns into a fifteen yard personal foul penalty. VB scores about 40 seconds later. Then scores again with 2 minutes left to tie the game. Game goes into OT and VB wins when Boone's extra point try to tie the game at 35 apiece is blocked by VB's special teams.

Moral of the story: There is no need to commit unnecessary fouls. It can, and often does, cost you the game. 

That DB coming to FSU? He’d fit right in ...sadly...

[HornetFan]

10 hours ago, DarterBlue2 said:

So, Boone is up by 14 against VB with 8 minutes left in the game. It is third down and long. The VB QB throws a high pass to the right side of the field. Neither the reviver nor the defensive back can reach it. the DB hits the receiver hard as the ball goes well over their heads. What should no be a fourth and long turns into a fifteen yard personal foul penalty. VB scores about 40 seconds later. Then scores again with 2 minutes left to tie the game. Game goes into OT and VB wins when Boone's extra point try to tie the game at 35 apiece is blocked by VB's special teams.

Moral of the story: There is no need to commit unnecessary fouls. It can, and often does, cost you the game. 

Too often DB's lose track of the ball and rather than being beat for a TD, they commit a personal foul or pass interference violation; 15 yard penalty but no score for opponents. The DB is "on an island" with that receiver and every mistake gets magnified. It's a tough position to play. At least his penalty was part of the play. What drives me crazy are penalties for holding or blocking in the back that are committed away from the actual play, especially on kickoffs.

[Perspective]

Anyone have a video clip of the play?  Was it a "late" hit?  An "unnecessary" hit?  What made the hit a penalty?

[Trelle]

11 minutes ago, Perspective said:

Anyone have a video clip of the play?  Was it a "late" hit?  An "unnecessary" hit?  What made the hit a penalty?

2:08:10 is where the play starts a few seconds after that.

https://youtu.be/dtgkstO20Is

[DarterBlue2]

27 minutes ago, Perspective said:

Anyone have a video clip of the play?  Was it a "late" hit?  An "unnecessary" hit?  What made the hit a penalty?

Unnecessary hit. Unfortunate. Credit VB for taking full advantage. 

[Perspective]

Jambum, are DB's charged with the responsibility for knowing where the ball is at all times?  Was that a personal foul simply because the pass was overthrown?

As I watch the play, I see the DB break on the throw.  The WR jumps for the overthrown pass. For the most part, the DB has his head down.  The hit occurs almost simultaneous with the WR's foot landing (and, for what it's worth, the DB led with his shoulder and hit the body, not the head, of the WR).  If the pass had been slightly less over thrown, so that it tipped off the outstretched hand of the WR, would it still have been a penalty?   What if the WR had been able to get two hands on the pass?  I would argue that if the WR had managed to get two hands on the ball, that hit by the DB would have been a text-book play.  But it wasn't like the WR took two or three more steps before he was hit.  Also, I think the hit looked a little harder than it was because the WR was slightly off balance when he landed/got hit, and took an awkward tumble (somehow losing his helmet in the process).  

Which gets me back to my original question:  in real time, is the DB supposed to be able to tell if the WR makes the catch or doesn't so that he can make contact if there is a catch but somehow avoid the contact if the pass goes through the WR's hands?

I guess, in hindsight, the DB could/should have simply wrapped up the WR, instead of bumping him, so that he didn't fall to the ground.  I'm not arguing the call so much as I'm trying to get a little clarification as to what knowledge is imputed to the DB for purposes of making a personal foul call. 

[Trelle]

If you look closely the ball was well over the head of both DB and WR and out of play a few yards. The DB still continued to follow thru and looks as if he shrugs his shoulder into the WR at the end of it when they both are either out of bounce or about to be. As Darter said it was unnecessary. 
 

Some screen shots:

Pre Hit

Hit

 

[Perspective]

5 minutes ago, Trelle said:

If you look closely the ball was well over the head of both DB and WR and out of play a few yards. The DB still continued to follow thru and looks as if he shrugs his shoulder into the WR at the end of it when they both are either out of bounce or about to be. As Darter said it was unnecessary. 
 

Some screen shots:

Pre Hit

Hit

 

The "Pre HIt" screenshot confirms the pass was well overthrown (and that the DB had his head down, with his eyes focused on the WR and not the flight path of the ball).   The "Hit" screenshot confirms what I saw:  the contact from the DB comes just as the WR is landing.  And if we can't tell for sure with replay whether the WR's foot landed in bounds, on the line or out of bounds, how should a DB be able to tell in real time?  

Again, it appears to me that the only justification for calling this a penalty is because the ball was overthrown and the WR clearly didn't have the ball when he landed and contact was made.   I see that happen all the time at the pro, college and high school level with no penalty call being made.    

Trelle, would you agree with me that the hit would have been totally clean if the WR had snagged that ball?  That's why I'm asking Jambum whether, on a play like that, the DB is supposed to know whether the catch was made or not.   

Again, for what it's worth, the hit did not appear to be malicious or untimely; it was simply unnecessary because the pass was well overthrown -- something everyone in the stadium could see except the DB with his head down.

 

[Trelle]

I believe if he would have grabbed the ball the outcome would have been different it becomes a live play but that ball was so poorly thrown I don’t think there was any chance the WR could of grabbed it unless he was Calvin Johnson. I think he knew the guy didn’t have the ball and instead of pulling up and avoiding he still gave him a pop at the end, even his team mates looked a bit confused as to why he did that. DBs/WRs get choppy all the time maybe he just wanted to let the WR know he was there? My opinion correct call, DB made a mistake. 
 

Same topic but not about the penalty my coach would have had my a## for ever putting my head down. First for not seeing where I was tackling and secondly that’s how you get hurt!

[HornetFan]

4 hours ago, Trelle said:

2:08:10 is where the play starts a few seconds after that.

https://youtu.be/dtgkstO20Is

That announcer was a "homer" begging for help from the official. The ball was uncatchable and the penalty should not have been called; I think the ref believed he may have owed them one from the incidental contact a few plays before downfield. From the angle the DB came, he couldn't see if the ball was caught or not, and all he did was bump the receiver to make sure he was out of bounds, besides that, it wasn't a bad hit, more a love tap. A bad call.

[HornetFan]

3 hours ago, Trelle said:

If you look closely the ball was well over the head of both DB and WR and out of play a few yards. The DB still continued to follow thru and looks as if he shrugs his shoulder into the WR at the end of it when they both are either out of bounce or about to be. As Darter said it was unnecessary. 
 

Some screen shots:

Pre Hit

Hit

 

I looked closely at the "pre-Hit" and "Hit". Both players continued for about two yards towards each other and they bumped. The time between the two photos is a fraction of a second. The ref blew it.

[Trelle]

18 minutes ago, HornetFan said:

That announcer was a "homer" begging for help from the official. The ball was uncatchable and the penalty should not have been called; I think the ref believed he may have owed them one from the incidental contact a few plays before downfield. From the angle the DB came, he couldn't see if the ball was caught or not, and all he did was bump the receiver to make sure he was out of bounds, besides that, it wasn't a bad hit, more a love tap. A bad call.

Lmao the announcer is a YouTube announcer for Vero not like he’s “begging” the refs on the field. If anything your a Orlando area homer, I’m a Vero one so of course we always like to see things play out to benefit your respective teams. I’ve seen this kind of thing play called multiple times and over looked times as well. I’ve asked how refs missed calls that Vero did and should have had go against them and vice versa. Gotta be non biased. One thing I’ve enjoyed about Darter over the years he’s always been pretty much non biased and has had some solid input. Can’t just say everything is bad that the opposing team does. IMO Vero should have lost this game with some of the horrible mistakes they made, as Darter said 8 minutes left up 2 scores, Boone had no business losing this game when it comes down to it with the turn overs/mistakes Vero gave them.

[HornetFan]

4 hours ago, Trelle said:

Lmao the announcer is a YouTube announcer for Vero not like he’s “begging” the refs on the field. If anything your a Orlando area homer, I’m a Vero one so of course we always like to see things play out to benefit your respective teams. I’ve seen this kind of thing play called multiple times and over looked times as well. I’ve asked how refs missed calls that Vero did and should have had go against them and vice versa. Gotta be non biased. One thing I’ve enjoyed about Darter over the years he’s always been pretty much non biased and has had some solid input. Can’t just say everything is bad that the opposing team does. IMO Vero should have lost this game with some of the horrible mistakes they made, as Darter said 8 minutes left up 2 scores, Boone had no business losing this game when it comes down to it with the turn overs/mistakes Vero gave them.

Ok, maybe the announcer wasn't begging for calls for VB, but he sure was blinded as a fan in calling that a penalty. This is football and when two players' momentum carries them towards a common spot and they bump after the ball has already be thrown out of bounds (as your two photos obviously show), it should not be called a penalty. I have a few teams that I root for in the Orlando area (Winter Park and Bishop Moore) and a few others that I respect (Edgewater, Jones, Seminole, and Apopka) because their programs are very strong and they all have a very good chance to getting to the state championship games, but I don't consider Boone as being in that class and don't really care if a better team beat them without the aid of a bad call. I just think they got hosed on a bad call that may have been influenced by a non-call a few plays earlier. 

[Ric Flair]

This is /was a very good Boone team who fought to the very end.  Take nothing away from them...they are a tough gutsy bunch.  That being said, the referees assigned to this game were from out-of-area. We have never seen them before this night.  Tough calls went for and against each team all night long.  The game could have easily gone either way, but VB made one final play to end the overtime.  The YouTube announcer stands on top of the PressBox and is not seen or heard by the public announcer (inside the PressBox) for the games.  In fact, I have never even heard the YouTube guys myself until just now.  There is no way any fan could hear those guys begging for any calls...not the way they seem to whisper into their microphones.  lol.  Now, we prepare for Miami Palmetto next week in the Citrus Bowl.  

I just want to line up correctly.  

[Jambun82]

10 hours ago, Perspective said:

Jambum, are DB's charged with the responsibility for knowing where the ball is at all times?  Was that a personal foul simply because the pass was overthrown?

As I watch the play, I see the DB break on the throw.  The WR jumps for the overthrown pass. For the most part, the DB has his head down.  The hit occurs almost simultaneous with the WR's foot landing (and, for what it's worth, the DB led with his shoulder and hit the body, not the head, of the WR).  If the pass had been slightly less over thrown, so that it tipped off the outstretched hand of the WR, would it still have been a penalty?   What if the WR had been able to get two hands on the pass?  I would argue that if the WR had managed to get two hands on the ball, that hit by the DB would have been a text-book play.  But it wasn't like the WR took two or three more steps before he was hit.  Also, I think the hit looked a little harder than it was because the WR was slightly off balance when he landed/got hit, and took an awkward tumble (somehow losing his helmet in the process).  

Which gets me back to my original question:  in real time, is the DB supposed to be able to tell if the WR makes the catch or doesn't so that he can make contact if there is a catch but somehow avoid the contact if the pass goes through the WR's hands?

I guess, in hindsight, the DB could/should have simply wrapped up the WR, instead of bumping him, so that he didn't fall to the ground.  I'm not arguing the call so much as I'm trying to get a little clarification as to what knowledge is imputed to the DB for purposes of making a personal foul call. 

Perspective, that was definitely a dead-ball personal foul in my view. The DB clearly led with his shoulder a few seconds after he was able to see that the the receiver had not caught the ball, the pass was incomplete, and the play was over. There is no need for that kind of behavior, and we need to get to late hits like that out of the game now or the game will be legislated away, and there will be Friday Night High School Flag Football games. That was the correct foul by the line judge.  

[Jambun82]

6 hours ago, HornetFan said:

That announcer was a "homer" begging for help from the official. The ball was uncatchable and the penalty should not have been called; I think the ref believed he may have owed them one from the incidental contact a few plays before downfield. From the angle the DB came, he couldn't see if the ball was caught or not, and all he did was bump the receiver to make sure he was out of bounds, besides that, it wasn't a bad hit, more a love tap. A bad call.

HornetFan, if a football is uncatchable or not has no bearing on DPI, OPI, or any other foul in NFHS rules.  

[DarterBlue2]

10 hours ago, Jambun82 said:

Perspective, that was definitely a dead-ball personal foul in my view. The DB clearly led with his shoulder a few seconds after he was able to see that the the receiver had not caught the ball, the pass was incomplete, and the play was over. There is no need for that kind of behavior, and we need to get to late hits like that out of the game now or the game will be legislated away, and there will be Friday Night High School Flag Football games. That was the correct foul by the line judge.  

From watching the play several times, I cannot conclude as you have done above that the defender hit the receiver after the play was complete knowingly. With that said, I did not make the post to complain about the call, just to point out the effect that in the heat of the moment, split second decisions can have a monumental impact on a game. 

I do feel for the Boone kids as they played their hearts out and gave Vero all it could manage. In a sense it was unfortunate that one team had to loose this game. I am not a fan of Boone myself as my screen name confirms. However, I do have a lot of respect for what the staff does with the kids they have there. 

[HornetFan]

10 hours ago, Jambun82 said:

HornetFan, if a football is uncatchable or not has no bearing on DPI, OPI, or any other foul in NFHS rules.  

I understand that it makes no difference in the rules if a ball is catchable or not. I still say the call was a bad call. You said in a response above that "The DB clearly led with his shoulder a few seconds after he was able to see that the the receiver had not caught the ball, the pass was incomplete, and the play was over". When that ball sailed over the WR's head, the two players were less than five yards apart. Two players travelling towards each other cover that short distance in a split second, not a few seconds. Also, from the video, it appears the DB had his eyes down on the WR, not the ball. He may not have realized the ball had sailed out of bounds. In real time, this appeared to be a bang-bang play that should not have been called a penalty. I still think the ref was making up for a missed called a few plays earlier and a referee should never let that happen, but they do.

[Perspective]

I love how different people can watch the exact same clip and come away with completely different viewpoints.   Hornet, I tend to agree with your take on this one.  Bang-bang play.   Jambun, I'll ask you another question:  at what point does the ball become dead?   While the pass was well overthrown (and I'm not going to go back and watch it yet again), my guess is that the ball had not yet hit the ground or a person standing out of bounds when the DB made contact.   If that's correct, isn't the play still alive? 

While you're pondering that one, how about this hit from the NFL yesterday?   Personal foul or clean hit?   Yeah, yeah, I know Cam Newton is a QB, but he's also a big guy (does that matter?) who has made several plays 'with his feet' over the years.   In this case, he was still in bounds when contact was made and he was right at (I'll even say 'just over') the line to gain on a critical 3rd and long play.  The extra 15 yards ultimately put the Pats in range to kick a game-winning field goal in the final seconds. 

 

[Jambun82]

11 hours ago, Perspective said:

I love how different people can watch the exact same clip and come away with completely different viewpoints.   Hornet, I tend to agree with your take on this one.  Bang-bang play.   Jambun, I'll ask you another question:  at what point does the ball become dead?   While the pass was well overthrown (and I'm not going to go back and watch it yet again), my guess is that the ball had not yet hit the ground or a person standing out of bounds when the DB made contact.   If that's correct, isn't the play still alive? 

While you're pondering that one, how about this hit from the NFL yesterday?   Personal foul or clean hit?   Yeah, yeah, I know Cam Newton is a QB, but he's also a big guy (does that matter?) who has made several plays 'with his feet' over the years.   In this case, he was still in bounds when contact was made and he was right at (I'll even say 'just over') the line to gain on a critical 3rd and long play.  The extra 15 yards ultimately put the Pats in range to kick a game-winning field goal in the final seconds. 

 

Perspective, I think that it would be best for me not to make judgments on fouls or calls from NFL or College Football. As far as the when the play being dead, when it is clear that if a ball is not going to be caught/possessed , the onus is on the defender not make the sort of contact that was made in that video.  Player Safety is always paramount when High School Football is involved, and the FHSAA will always back that up. If there was no foul on that dead-ball hit, the Vero Beach Head Coach could send that clip to the FHSAA demanding clarification, and he would be right to do that. 

[Jambun82]

12 hours ago, HornetFan said:

I understand that it makes no difference in the rules if a ball is catchable or not. I still say the call was a bad call. You said in a response above that "The DB clearly led with his shoulder a few seconds after he was able to see that the the receiver had not caught the ball, the pass was incomplete, and the play was over". When that ball sailed over the WR's head, the two players were less than five yards apart. Two players travelling towards each other cover that short distance in a split second, not a few seconds. Also, from the video, it appears the DB had his eyes down on the WR, not the ball. He may not have realized the ball had sailed out of bounds. In real time, this appeared to be a bang-bang play that should not have been called a penalty. I still think the ref was making up for a missed called a few plays earlier and a referee should never let that happen, but they do.

HornetFan, first of all that official is not a "ref' he is the line judge. Secondly, I don't know how you could make a determination that the official was making up for a missed call a few plays earlier unless you have some kind of mind reading powers that no one else possess. Thirdly, no Referee who is worth a darn is going to overrule any other official when it comes to player safety. Like I said, the onus is on the defender to be able to hold up, and not commit that kind of foul. That is the way that the game is going to be officiated now, and it is not going back.  

[Perspective]

10 hours ago, Jambun82 said:

 Player Safety is always paramount when High School Football is involved, and the FHSAA will always back that up.

Any thoughts on the FHSAA scheduling 8 games over 4 consecutive days on the same natural grass field?

[DarterBlue2]

16 minutes ago, Perspective said:

Any thoughts on the FHSAA scheduling 8 games over 4 consecutive days on the same natural grass field?

I think he will argue that this is out of the purview of game officials ! 

[DisabledAccount]

1 hour ago, Perspective said:

Any thoughts on the FHSAA scheduling 8 games over 4 consecutive days on the same natural grass field?

If it gets too bad then maybe they could use Bragg