2/3 of all Private School State Titles Won By 6 Schools

[OldSchoolLion]

Do private schools as a whole perform that well in football?  The short answer is "not especially," as reflected in the data below.  I selected the 70 most well-known private schools in the state(for football) and have listed the title history of each below.  Please keep in mind that many of these schools have been around for a long time. There are a number of schools that are 50 years old that have never won a title. 

If several of these teams had not had the success they did over the years, the private school debate might be a non-issue, or at least a less talked-about one.  So, when we talk about the private school advantage, we should remember that the vast majority of private schools have not done a disproportionate amount of winning.  Some interesting statistics:   

• 23/70(33%) private schools listed below have won at least one state title.  So, 2/3 of private schools have never won a state title.  31/80(39%) of the private schools below have never appeared in a state title game.  
• These 23 teams have won a combined 84 state titles out of a total of 308 state titles awarded by the FHSAA.  So, private schools have won 27% of the FHSAA state titles awarded.
• Approximately 2/3 of all state titles won by private schools over the past 55 years were won by one of 6 teams.  (Bolles, STA, University Chr., NFC, Trinity Chr., and Glades Day) 
• 69 of those 84 titles (82%) were won by one of 10 schools listed below.  The other 60 private schools won a total of 15 titles between them, 12 of them within the past 25 years.  

 

Bolles-11 state titles

St Thomas Aquinas-11

University Christian-9

North Florida Christian-8

Trinity Christian-7

Glades Day-7

Chaminade-Madonna-5

American Heritage Plantation-4

Champagnat-4

American Heritage Delray-3

 

 

State Title History of 70 Private Schools

Note: Teams that have won at least one state title are italicized.

 

Admiral Farragut    2011 2A runner-up

American Heritage Delray 2007(1A), 2009(1A), and 2011(3A) titles; 2002(A), 2010(1A), 2013(3A) and 2014(3A) runners-up  

American Heritage Plantation 2013, 2014, 2016, 2017 5A title; 1998 2A runner-up

Archbishop Carroll   no titles

Archbishop Curley    no titles

Archbishop McCarthy   no titles

Belen Jesuit   2009 3A runner-up

Benjamin   1978, 1979, 1992 A runner-up, 1994 2A runner-up

Berkeley Prep   no titles

Bishop Kenny    no titles

Bishop Moore   1970(A) and 2015(5A) title

Bishop Verot   1990(2A) and 1994(3A) runner-up

Bolles   11 state titles; 5 runner-up

Calvary Christian   no titles

Cardinal Gibbons   2018 5A champion; 1990 3A runner-up

Cardinal Mooney   1972 A champion

Chaminade-Madonna   2003(2A), 2005(2A), 2017(3A), 2018(3A) title, 2019(3A) title; 1974(3A), 2002(2A), 2017(3A) runner-up

Champagnat  2013, 2017, 2018, 2019 2A champion

Clearwater Central Catholic   2013 3A runner-up

Columbus 1980(4A) runner-up, 1982(4A) runner-up, 2014(8A) runner-up, 2018(8A)runner-up, 2019 champion

Dade Christian 2012 2A runner-up

Episcopal(Jacksonville)  no titles

Evangelical Christian 2005 1B title

Father Lopez   no titles

First Academy   no titles

Florida Christian   no titles

Glades Day   7 state titles and 7 runners-up

Gulliver Prep  2000 2A title, 2008 2A runner-up

Hollywood Christian   no titles

Holy Trinity (Melbourne)   no titles

Immaculata-Lasalle   no titles

Indian Rocks Christian  2014 2A runner-up

Jesuit 1968 A title, 1992 3A runner-up

John Carroll  no titles

John Paul II (Jacksonville)    no titles

Jupiter Christian   2007 and 2008 1B titles

Keswick Christian  no titles

King’s Academy 2018 3A runner-up

Lake Highland Prep   no titles

Melbourne Central Catholic   no titles

Monsignor Pace   2003 3A title

North Broward Prep    no titles

North Florida Christian   8 titles and 3 runners-up

Northside Christian   no titles

Orangewood Christian   no titles

Oxbridge Academy   2017 3A runner-up

Palmer Trinity   no titles

Pensacola Catholic   2004 2B runner-up

Pine Crest   no titles

Pope JP II (Boca Raton)   no titles

Ransom Everglades   no titles

St Andrew’s   no titles

St Edward’s   1989 A runner-up

St John Neumann   no titles

St Pete Catholic   no titles

St Thomas Aquinas   11 titles and 8 runners-up

Santa Fe Catholic   no titles

Shorecrest Prep   1975 and 1976 A runners-up

Tampa Catholic 2007 and 2009 2A runners-up

Trinity Catholic   2005 and 2010 2B titles; 2006 and 2008 2B runners-up

Trinity Christian (Deltona) no titles

Trinity Christian (Jacksonville)   7 titles, 2 runners-up

Trinity Prep 1971 and 1977 A runner-up

University Christian 9 titles and 1 runner-up

University School 2012 3A title, 2010 2B runner-up

Victory Christian 2014 2A title, 2006 1B runner-up, 2013 2A runner-up

Warner Christian 2008, 2009 and 2010 1B runner-up

Westminster Academy 1990 A title, 1991 A runner-up

Westminster Christian 1973 A runner-up

Village Academy no titles

[OldSchoolLion]

For those of you who would propose an All-Private league/division, there are a couple of problems.

1. The 16 teams listed below would annihilate many of the remaining 54 teams listed above.  There is a substantial lack in parity amongst FL private schools.

2. Of the 16 schools listed below, note the substantial difference in population of boys at each school.  Putting all 16 of these teams in one playoff pool puts some schools at a substantial disadvantage.  Note that some of the numbers below include students outside grades 9-12.  

St Thomas Aquinas-1994 students

Columbus-1759 students (all boys)

American Heritage Plantation-1511 students

American Heritage Delray-1026 students

Belen Jesuit-849 (all boys)

Monsignor Pace-833 students

Tampa Jesuit-830 (all boys)

Bolles-787 students

Tampa Catholic-702 students

Clearwater Central Catholic-543 students

Chaminade-Madonna-480 students

Trinity Christian-332 students

University Christian-213 students

Champagnat-146 students

North Florida Christian-137 students

Glades Day-99 students

 

[SubZero]

It would make no sense realistically to put a class in where all of them are private because there's only 5 elite schools in FL to be honest with you. 

 

[CoachMcG1]

If the goal is to even the playing the field, the FHSAA has already come up with the solution.  I do not think the idea has gotten past the discussion phase in the advisory committees.  It is to split up into "Urban" and Suburban by county and then have 3 classification in each.  Urban would be Dade, Broward, Palm Beach, Duval, Orange, Hillsborough and Pinellas.  Suburban would the rest of the counties.  Rural remains the same.  

The logic behind that idea is that those 7 counties win the most state championships, so splitting into 2 divisions would accomplish the goal.

[OldSchoolLion]

33 minutes ago, CoachMcG1 said:

If the goal is to even the playing the field, the FHSAA has already come up with the solution.  I do not think the idea has gotten past the discussion phase in the advisory committees.  It is to split up into "Urban" and Suburban by county and then have 3 classification in each.  Urban would be Dade, Broward, Palm Beach, Duval, Orange, Hillsborough and Pinellas.  Suburban would the rest of the counties.  Rural remains the same.  

The logic behind that idea is that those 7 counties win the most state championships, so splitting into 2 divisions would accomplish the goal.

An irony is that there are a ton of weak/marginal teams in those urban counties.  I would be very disappointed to see a setup like this.  A lot of playoff rivalries developed over many years would be lost.  

A big city school versus a non-metro school is intriguing for me, ie Edgewater traveling to Niceville for a state semi.     

 

[DisabledAccount]

1 hour ago, CoachMcG1 said:

If the goal is to even the playing the field, the FHSAA has already come up with the solution.  I do not think the idea has gotten past the discussion phase in the advisory committees.  It is to split up into "Urban" and Suburban by county and then have 3 classification in each.  Urban would be Dade, Broward, Palm Beach, Duval, Orange, Hillsborough and Pinellas.  Suburban would the rest of the counties.  Rural remains the same.  

The logic behind that idea is that those 7 counties win the most state championships, so splitting into 2 divisions would accomplish the goal.

I actually drew up a idea that would basically do this 

 

It actually makes sense considering with open enrollment a major city has teams who can recruit whether they are public or private (despite claims of some people on here publics in cities like Duval, Dade, Broward, Palm Beach, hillsborough, and orange counties recruit more than most private schools in florida) so it makes sense to level the playing field that way 

 

People who really WANT the field leveled would support this idea because enrollment is a broken system for that and there isn't enough elite teams in Florida (based on what is defined as elite by the "experts" on here) that would actually work as a promotion/regulation system and would create a whole new set of problems

[OldSchoolLion]

15 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

I actually drew up a idea that would basically do this 

 

It actually makes sense considering with open enrollment a major city has teams who can recruit whether they are public or private (despite claims of some people on here publics in cities like Duval, Dade, Broward, Palm Beach, hillsborough, and orange counties recruit more than most private schools in florida) so it makes sense to level the playing field that way 

 

People who really WANT the field leveled would support this idea because enrollment is a broken system for that and there isn't enough elite teams in Florida (based on what is defined as elite by the "experts" on here) that would actually work as a promotion/regulation system and would create a whole new set of problems

This system will create problems as well, especially if one does not separate private and public schools.  All but one of the aforementioned 16 private schools are in an urban area (assumes Tallahassee is "rural")  In a manner of speaking, the private school "problem" will become concentrated. 

Let's assume there would be 3 urban classes and call them Class 1-3.  The state finals each year, at least for now, could look like this...

Class 3 STA vs public school

Class 2 AHP/Cardinal Gibbons vs public school or Bolles

Class 1 Chaminade-Madonna vs Trinity Christian

For the sake of discussion, let's say public schools in metro areas presently have about 7 chances to get into a state final(2 in 8A, 1 in 7A, 2 in 6A, 1 in 5A, 1 in 4A).  With the scenario described above, public schools in metro areas may have 2 slots, at best.  How is that going to go over?   

With our current lineup of powerhouse teams in the state, it is possible that Tampa and Palm Beach-area schools could get left out of the finals for years at a time.  Will that be a demotivator?  The urban Class 1 would be loaded with strong private school teams.    

I like the idea that it would improve competition overall.  But with the recent trend to have more classes and more playoff teams, I see a lot of squawking when certain public school used to making state finals are potentially getting shut out.  

     

[DisabledAccount]

12 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

This system will create problems as well, especially if one does not separate private and public schools.  All but one of the aforementioned 16 private schools are in an urban area (assumes Tallahassee is "rural")  In a manner of speaking, the private school "problem" will become concentrated. 

Let's assume there would be 3 urban classes and call them Class 1-3.  The state finals each year, at least for now, could look like this...

Class 3 STA vs public school

Class 2 AHP/Cardinal Gibbons vs public school or Bolles

Class 1 Chaminade-Madonna vs Trinity Christian

For the sake of discussion, let's say public schools in metro areas presently have about 7 chances to get into a state final(2 in 8A, 1 in 7A, 2 in 6A, 1 in 5A, 1 in 4A).  With the scenario described above, public schools in metro areas may have 2 slots, at best.  How is that going to go over?   

With our current lineup of powerhouse teams in the state, it is possible that Tampa and Palm Beach-area schools could get left out of the finals for years at a time.  Will that be a demotivator?  The urban Class 1 would be loaded with strong private school teams.    

I like the idea that it would improve competition overall.  But with the recent trend to have more classes and more playoff teams, I see a lot of squawking when certain public school used to making state finals are potentially getting shut out.  

     

But how many actually make it consistently on the current format?

 

Last year i think we had 4-5 tampa teams make the state semifinals but none made the finals

 

Lately only 2 teams in Tampa have been able to argubly consistently make the finals and that's plant and Armwood but now that plant has fallen off they won't be going to the finals anytime soon in my opinion and Armwood while they can has now missed the finals the last 2 years (ironically as their Region got significantly stronger than it was in the 6a north previous)

 

The only Palm Beach teams I can remember making the finals in past 5 years would be Oxbridge and kings academy (both in 3a north regions that argubly were pretty easy paths) and Pahokee (in 1a which I believe would stay the same in the suggested idea if I read that correctly) 

 

Before that I'm guessing last Palm Beach team to make the finals was Dwyer in 2013? 

 

 

So it's not like the current system has lead to teams in those counties to pile up state championship appearances 

 

 

But let's be honest can you really create a classification of 15-16 teams with those private schools or would people then complain that it's too small of a classification or complain about UC being in the same classification as STA and could be forced to play them in a early round as the result of having a very small Region? I just think even with the problems of combining the publics/privates in a urban/rural setting would actually be less problematic than separating them would be 

 

 

If you want I can show you what I drawn up and you can share the pros/cons of what a system like this would have in action (note it was done I think last year so I didn't include any new schools from this year or projected for next year into it)

[OldSchoolLion]

7 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

But how many actually make it consistently on the current format?

Last year i think we had 4-5 tampa teams make the state semifinals but none made the finals

Lately only 2 teams in Tampa have been able to argubly consistently make the finals and that's plant and Armwood but now that plant has fallen off they won't be going to the finals anytime soon in my opinion and Armwood while they can has now missed the finals the last 2 years (ironically as their Region got significantly stronger than it was in the 6a north previous)

The only Palm Beach teams I can remember making the finals in past 5 years would be Oxbridge and kings academy (both in 3a north regions that argubly were pretty easy paths) and Pahokee (in 1a which I believe would stay the same in the suggested idea if I read that correctly) 

 

It's a perception thing.  It won't going over well stating,  "Well, you guys really don't win many state titles, so it's a moot point if now we make it even harder for you."

[DisabledAccount]

One thing is for sure though, classification by student enrollment is a system that is in the kindest words I can come up with, obsolete

 

 

For example Trinity Christian is a school with like 300-400 students give or take but how many schools over 3k kids in the state of Florida would you feel confident could actually beat Trinity Christian (I can think of other examples both private and public but they are the best example)

 

 

With open enrollment and loose transfer rules and a clear talent advantage in Urban areas I feel the school size is becoming less and less of a indicator of the talent level at a school

[DisabledAccount]

1 minute ago, OldSchoolLion said:

It's a perception thing.  It won't going over well stating,  "Well, you guys really don't win many state titles, so it's a moot point if now we make it even harder for you."

Well obviously someone pushing the policy in a committee and FHSAA setting would find some more loose way of explaining it or using the idea that the current system needs changes and this idea could restore some "competitive balance" "reduce playoff and state championship blowouts" and "give teams a better chance to compete"

 

But I'm no executive so I am not in a position to need to sugar-coat it lol 

[OldSchoolLion]

10 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

But how many actually make it consistently on the current format?

 

Last year i think we had 4-5 tampa teams make the state semifinals but none made the finals

 

Lately only 2 teams in Tampa have been able to argubly consistently make the finals and that's plant and Armwood but now that plant has fallen off they won't be going to the finals anytime soon in my opinion and Armwood while they can has now missed the finals the last 2 years (ironically as their Region got significantly stronger than it was in the 6a north previous)

 

The only Palm Beach teams I can remember making the finals in past 5 years would be Oxbridge and kings academy (both in 3a north regions that argubly were pretty easy paths) and Pahokee (in 1a which I believe would stay the same in the suggested idea if I read that correctly) 

 

Before that I'm guessing last Palm Beach team to make the finals was Dwyer in 2013? 

 

 

So it's not like the current system has lead to teams in those counties to pile up state championship appearances 

 

 

But let's be honest can you really create a classification of 15-16 teams with those private schools or would people then complain that it's too small of a classification or complain about UC being in the same classification as STA and could be forced to play them in a early round as the result of having a very small Region? I just think even with the problems of combining the publics/privates in a urban/rural setting would actually be less problematic than separating them would be 

 

 

If you want I can show you what I drawn up and you can share the pros/cons of what a system like this would have in action (note it was done I think last year so I didn't include any new schools from this year or projected for next year into it)

As I have stated ad nauseum, we have a laser focus on the better teams in the state and how to deal with them.  Our biggest threat as a sport are the numerous, floundering programs out there and the widening gap between them and the better teams.   

Our focus on future systems improvements needs to be upon how to enable those teams to be more competitive and get some momentum.  Whether we use the present system or an urban/rural system, that does nothing to help the Tampa Leto's and Strawberry crest's of the world.

[OldSchoolLion]

Cocoa, Lakeland, Manatee, Mainland, Naples, Niceville, St Augustine, Vero Beach to name a few...I really struggle calling these "rural" programs.  They have proven their ability to consistently compete with schools from the big metro areas.  I think it is an insult to their programs to potentially lower their level of playoff competition and deny them a chance to compete against some of the best programs.    

[DisabledAccount]

4 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

As I have stated ad nauseum, we have a laser focus on the better teams in the state and how to deal with them.  Our biggest threat as a sport are the numerous, floundering programs out there and the widening gap between them and the better teams.   

Our focus on future systems improvements needs to be upon how to enable those teams to be more competitive and get some momentum.  Whether we use the present system or an urban/rural system, that does nothing to help the Tampa Leto's and Strawberry crest's of the world.

The sad reality is I think that no matter what system you use there will always be teams who will naturally struggle

 

Let me ask you this, you recently did that thread about the worst teams in FL as of late, how many coaches have those programs had since 2010?

 

Even if a team is losing they usually have a decent shot of retaining some talent if they have stability but if you firing a coach every year and nothing changes I can't blame kids for wanting to go somewhere else 

 

I've seen several programs who used to be good that seemed to start going downhill once the stability of the program became erratic

[DisabledAccount]

Just now, OldSchoolLion said:

Cocoa, Lakeland, Manatee, Mainland, Naples, Niceville, St Augustine, Vero Beach to name a few...I really struggle calling these "rural" programs.  They have proven their ability to consistently compete with schools from the big metro areas.  I think it is an insult to their programs to potentially lower their level of playoff competition and deny them a chance to compete against some of the best programs.    

Well one thing I did in my idea was I basically broke it down more than just urban and suburban and rural 

 

County population breakdown

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pFEBMJnvyXux8pAfpF1UuBcu4R3I1RPAIKOJRDU4YUc/edit?usp=drivesdk

 

 

Classification breakdown

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/16XOlogSB8GogMoSpF4qO2q9mJZ_Cd7lC6KxtTSRkZMw/edit?usp=drivesdk

 

 

 

 

[OldSchoolLion]

2 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

The sad reality is I think that no matter what system you use there will always be teams who will naturally struggle

 

Let me ask you this, you recently did that thread about the worst teams in FL as of late, how many coaches have those programs had since 2010?

 

Even if a team is losing they usually have a decent shot of retaining some talent if they have stability but if you firing a coach every year and nothing changes I can't blame kids for wanting to go somewhere else 

 

I've seen several programs who used to be good that seemed to start going downhill once the stability of the program became erratic

That would be a good assignment for you!

[OldSchoolLion]

3 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

The sad reality is I think that no matter what system you use there will always be teams who will naturally struggle

 

Let me ask you this, you recently did that thread about the worst teams in FL as of late, how many coaches have those programs had since 2010?

 

Even if a team is losing they usually have a decent shot of retaining some talent if they have stability but if you firing a coach every year and nothing changes I can't blame kids for wanting to go somewhere else 

 

I've seen several programs who used to be good that seemed to start going downhill once the stability of the program became erratic

I did a thread on this a while back.  I would say a coach needs a good 5-7 years to lay a sustainable foundation.  The operative word there is "sustainable."  

[DisabledAccount]

1 minute ago, OldSchoolLion said:

That would be a good assignment for you!

I would look it up if I knew where these records were kept but as I've stated many times FL doesn't do a good job of keeping records (as was apparent in my 600/700 wins thread as I discovered many errors in the state record book that was not charted correctly)

[DisabledAccount]

1 minute ago, OldSchoolLion said:

I did a thread on this a while back.  I would say a coach needs a good 5-7 years to lay a sustainable foundation.  The operative word there is "sustainable."  

And I'll take a wild stab and say most teams on your lists of struggling programs probably give 2 years or less 

[DisabledAccount]

And there are just some administrations out there who don't really care about having a successful sports program or don't know how to build one so they just fire a coach when they get unhappy or the coach demands too much 

 

Sadly some programs will struggle no matter what system is used for classifications and probably would be better going independent or forming a league with other struggling programs in their area at least until they can build themselves up and have a stable program

[OldSchoolLion]

3 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

I would look it up if I knew where these records were kept but as I've stated many times FL doesn't do a good job of keeping records (as was apparent in my 600/700 wins thread as I discovered many errors in the state record book that was not charted correctly)

I know where to find them.  You young people really need to get with it and learn how to use technology.

[DarterBlue2]

Two small, picky corrections. First Bishop Moore's second title was in 2015 and not 2005. Second, I am pretty sure the enrollment numbers for American Heritage Plantation are not in the 2,700 range but probably about a thousand less. Otherwise, they would be in class 8A, which would be horrible for the Orlando metro area! 

[DisabledAccount]

12 minutes ago, DarterBlue2 said:

Two small, picky corrections. First Bishop Moore's second title was in 2015 and not 2005. Second, I am pretty sure the enrollment numbers for American Heritage Plantation are not in the 2,700 range but probably about a thousand less. Otherwise, they would be in class 8A, which would be horrible for the Orlando metro area! 

I think a team like Apopka, Dr Phillips, or Osceola could compete with AHP

[OldSchoolLion]

26 minutes ago, DarterBlue2 said:

Two small, picky corrections. First Bishop Moore's second title was in 2015 and not 2005. Second, I am pretty sure the enrollment numbers for American Heritage Plantation are not in the 2,700 range but probably about a thousand less. Otherwise, they would be in class 8A, which would be horrible for the Orlando metro area! 

BM corrected..thank you, Carter.   Concerning AHP, "Note that some of the numbers below include students outside grades 9-12."  

[DarterBlue2]

11 minutes ago, OldSchoolLion said:

BM corrected..thank you, Carter.   Concerning AHP, "Note that some of the numbers below include students outside grades 9-12."  

AHA!