WHAT THE HECK iS REALLY GOING ON WITH BROWARD COUNTY PUBLIC SCHOOLS??!?

[THIS_IS_DILLARD]

29 minutes ago, VeniceIndiansFootball said:

And how many schools that play against IMG can say that they kept the score within 17 points? The whole point of playing them is to be used as a measuring stick to expose any flaws you have as a program. Northwestern should have beaten them last year, but they don’t have the coaching to overcome adversity the way other teams do. IMG doesn’t fill their schedule with all of these all-star teams like Mater Dei and SFA in every single week. They’ve played plenty of playoff-contending public schools over the years, such as Dillard, Venice, Miami Northwestern, Edgewater, and even Central. Sure, only Central can say they’ve kept the score within 14 in their one occasion of playing them. However, the crux of my post is that playing them helps to prepare a team for what they may see come playoff time. The incessant hatred for IMG on this board needs to stop. 

I agree 

[HornetFan]

1 hour ago, VeniceIndiansFootball said:

And how many schools that play against IMG can say that they kept the score within 17 points? The whole point of playing them is to be used as a measuring stick to expose any flaws you have as a program. Northwestern should have beaten them last year, but they don’t have the coaching to overcome adversity the way other teams do. IMG doesn’t fill their schedule with all of these all-star teams like Mater Dei and SFA in every single week. They’ve played plenty of playoff-contending public schools over the years, such as Dillard, Venice, Miami Northwestern, Edgewater, and even Central. Sure, only Central can say they’ve kept the score within 14 in their one occasion of playing them. However, the crux of my post is that playing them helps to prepare a team for what they may see come playoff time. The incessant hatred for IMG on this board needs to stop. 

I in no way hate IMG. I respect them because they don't try to hide how their team is built. They play for national championships and they recruit nationwide. They have an IMG White team that competes against FHSAA teams, and wins some and loses some. I don't need Mike Tyson to hit me with a left hook to realize he can kick my butt from here to next Sunday. Apparently, there are some here that actually believe their local teams should be playing IMG; I'm not one of them.

[Perspective]

I don’t hate IMG.  But I don’t necessarily “like” them either.  I respect what they have been able to accomplish, but I do not respect the way they have gone about building their program. 

IMG set out to be a national football power and they have succeeded.  In many ways, it was a ‘go big or go home, shoot for the moon’ mentality.  To their credit, they have done what they sought out to do.  From the beginning, they poured a lot of money into a football program that did not previously exist.   They spent big bucks on facilities (field, locker room, weight room, etc.) and coaches.  To some extent, IMG took The Field of Dreams approach:  if we build it, the kids will come.  Not a bad investment strategy.  But it was clear from the start that IMG did not want the development process to be a long-term deal.  Instead, they wanted to have immediate success, as that was the only way the business model would work.   And the only way to have immediate success on the field was to ‘attract’ D-1 talent.  So, they set out to bring in the best players they could – from neighboring counties, across the state and across the nation.  In the process, they made a lot of enemies among area high school coaches when they started poaching their players.  That is why a number of coaches in central and southwest Florida would not play IMG in IMG’s early years (and still will not play them to this day). 

IMG is a unicorn – at least in Florida.  They’re a combination of a private/prep school and an all-star team.  They need to be playing other similar schools, but there really aren’t any such schools in Florida.  A few teams, like STA, may check one of those boxes, but not both.  Accordingly, IMG has to play a national schedule; but that gets really expensive.  So, they try to fill in as many state schools as possible, especially those who may have some talented underclassmen.  And they do their best to be the good hosts, showing off their first-class facilities along the way, before blowing their opponents out once the games start. 

Here’s my problem with IMG.   When they first got started, in order to play both quality in-state opponents and out-of-state opponents, they had to be affiliated with a governing organization within this state.  Therefore, IMG joined the FHSAA.  From the start, they have elected to be an “independent,” meaning that they do not get to play in a state championship series.  However (and this is where the rubber meets the road), IMG also agreed, by becoming a member, to play by FHSAA rules.  One of those rules says you cannot recruit.  And from the beginning, IMG has recruited.  They don’t publicly acknowledge or talk openly about their recruiting, but they do recruit.  Everyone knows it (including the FHSAA).  Former players have posted about it on social media.  IMG recruits top-notch talent from across the country.  People go on message boards (including this one) and talk openly about it – many assuming that IMG is allowed to do it.

I can’t tell you how many conversations I have had over the years with people who think that IMG is somehow exempt from the “No Recruiting” rules.  Many of these same people also think that private schools are exempt, too.  They are not.  Each and every school that is a member of the FHSAA is prohibited from recruiting. 

As impressed as I may be with what IMG has built in a short amount of time, I have a certain amount of disdain for the way in which they did it . . . and continue to do it.  Knowing how much clout they have and the somewhat cozy relationship they have the FHSAA, I would be more impressed with, and more accepting of, IMG’s success if they simply lobbied the FHSAA for a new, special, classification of membership that allows for recruiting – even if IMG were the only member in that new, special classification.  But, to my knowledge, that has not happened . . . perhaps because the lines would get blurred and it would be so difficult to distinguish between the efforts being made to attract players for IMG’s national team (where recruiting would presumably be allowed) and the efforts being made to field IMG’s White team (which would still be covered by FHSAA’s prohibition on recruiting). 

By the way, if someone can show me the language in the FHSAA handbook/policy manual that permits IMG to actively recruit players, I’ll be happy to step down from my soapbox.  Until then, I won’t be a hater, but I won’t be a ‘respecter’ either. 

 

[HornetFan]

11 minutes ago, Perspective said:

I don’t hate IMG.  But I don’t necessarily “like” them either.  I respect what they have been able to accomplish, but I do not respect the way they have gone about building their program. 

 

IMG set out to be a national football power and they have succeeded.  In many ways, it was a ‘go big or go home, shoot for the moon’ mentality.  To their credit, they have done what they sought out to do.  From the beginning, they poured a lot of money into a football program that did not previously exist.   They spent big bucks on facilities (field, locker room, weight room, etc.) and coaches.  To some extent, IMG took The Field of Dreams approach:  if we build it, the kids will come.  Not a bad investment strategy.  But it was clear from the start that IMG did not want the development process to be a long-term deal.  Instead, they wanted to have immediate success, as that was the only way the business model would work.   And the only way to have immediate success on the field was to ‘attract’ D-1 talent.  So, they set out to bring in the best players they could – from neighboring counties, across the state and across the nation.  In the process, they made a lot of enemies among area high school coaches when they started poaching their players.  That is why a number of coaches in central and southwest Florida would not play IMG in IMG’s early years (and still will not play them to this day). 

 

IMG is a unicorn – at least in Florida.  They’re a combination of a private/prep school and an all-star team.  They need to be playing other similar schools, but there really aren’t any such schools in Florida.  A few teams, like STA, may check one of those boxes, but not both.  Accordingly, IMG has to play a national schedule; but that gets really expensive.  So, they try to fill in as many state schools as possible, especially those who may have some talented underclassmen.  And they do their best to be the good hosts, showing off their first-class facilities along the way, before blowing their opponents out once the games start. 

 

Here’s my problem with IMG.   When they first got started, in order to play both quality in-state opponents and out-of-state opponents, they had to be affiliated with a governing organization within this state.  Therefore, IMG joined the FHSAA.  From the start, they have elected to be an “independent,” meaning that they do not get to play in a state championship series.  However (and this is where the rubber meets the road), IMG also agreed, by becoming a member, to play by FHSAA rules.  One of those rules says you cannot recruit.  And from the beginning, IMG has recruited.  They don’t publicly acknowledge or talk openly about their recruiting, but they do recruit.  Everyone knows it (including the FHSAA).  Former players have posted about it on social media.  IMG recruits top-notch talent from across the country.  People go on message boards (including this one) and talk openly about it – many assuming that IMG is allowed to do it.

 

I can’t tell you how many conversations I have had over the years with people who think that IMG is somehow exempt from the “No Recruiting” rules.  Many of these same people also think that private schools are exempt, too.  They are not.  Each and every school that is a member of the FHSAA is prohibited from recruiting. 

 

As impressed as I may be with what IMG has built in a short amount of time, I have a certain amount of disdain for the way in which they did it . . . and continue to do it.  Knowing how much clout they have and the somewhat cozy relationship they have the FHSAA, I would be more impressed with, and more accepting of, IMG’s success if they simply lobbied the FHSAA for a new, special, classification of membership that allows for recruiting – even if IMG were the only member in that new, special classification.  But, to my knowledge, that has not happened . . . perhaps because the lines would get blurred and it would be so difficult to distinguish between the efforts being made to attract players for IMG’s national team (where recruiting would presumably be allowed) and the efforts being made to field IMG’s White team (which would still be covered by FHSAA’s prohibition on recruiting). 

 

By the way, if someone can show me the language in the FHSAA handbook/policy manual that permits IMG to actively recruit players, I’ll be happy to step down from my soapbox.  Until then, I won’t be a hater, but I won’t be a ‘respecter’ either. 

 

 

 

"Each and every school that is a member of the FHSAA is prohibited from recruiting."

If the FHSAA and its members look the other way, and don't enforce the recruiting rules, schools will continue to find ways to lure players away from other programs. The transfer rule that allows students to transfer to schools that are not at capacity has made recruiting very easy for the best programs. Don't hate IMG for being honest as to the type of program they operate. They don't even have to recruit; players wanting to improve their college recruiting status seek them out.

[Perspective]

1 minute ago, HornetFan said:

"Each and every school that is a member of the FHSAA is prohibited from recruiting."

If the FHSAA and its members look the other way, and don't enforce the recruiting rules, schools will continue to find ways to lure players away from other programs. The transfer rule that allows students to transfer to schools that are not at capacity has made recruiting very easy for the best programs. Don't hate IMG for being honest as to the type of program they operate. They don't even have to recruit; players wanting to improve their college recruiting status seek them out.

Remember, however, that IMG's football program was created before the transfer rules changed (not that it really matters, given that IMG is private).    I don't hate IMG for being honest about their program.  I don't hate them at all.  But, I don't like the fact that they agreed to play by certain rules and then turned around and (somewhat openly) built their program by doing exactly what they agreed they wouldn't do. 

My post was probably too long as it was, but I meant to include a sentence or two that addressed the point you just made when I made reference to The Field of Dreams.  Because IMG did have initial success, they were able to attract players from across the county.  These kids filled the gaps that existed the first few years when IMG had a group of 3-5star skill players, but very little, if any, depth.   Now, many families are willing to pay full freight for their kids to attend IMG to get the training and visibility that goes along with being a part of the program (whether the kid ends up playing on the National team or the White team).  But, that does not change my perception that the ultra successful program that exists today was built on false foundation by a program that openly recruited in violation of the rules while the organization in charge turned a blind eye. 

HornetFan, if you've read my posts over the last couple of years, you will know that I recognize there is a distinction between "recruiting" and "attracting."   Successful programs attract kids.  The transfer rules in place now make that even easier.  The rich get richer (or at least stay rich), while it becomes darn near impossible for a school to slowly build up its program into a successful one.  But, those are the rules.  On the other hand, a concerted effort by a school to reach out to specific players that are not already enrolled at that school for the purpose of trying to convince those specific players to attend that school instead is recruiting and, last time I checked, still illegal. 

My bottom line is simple:  either change the rules or enforce them. 

[fishspinners]

On 6/10/2021 at 10:16 PM, THIS_IS_DILLARD said:

they did a poll that showed more talent coming out of broward then Mia 

I'd like to see that poll.

[THIS_IS_DILLARD]

2 minutes ago, fishspinners said:

I'd like to see that poll.

Lol 

[THIS_IS_DILLARD]

How I feel about all this img is no diff then STA & vice versa & if that’s the case STA Shouldn’t qualify for the FHSAA either. 
 

were either gonna respect recruiting fully or despise it fully, private or public school.

[HornetFan]

5 hours ago, Perspective said:

Remember, however, that IMG's football program was created before the transfer rules changed (not that it really matters, given that IMG is private).    I don't hate IMG for being honest about their program.  I don't hate them at all.  But, I don't like the fact that they agreed to play by certain rules and then turned around and (somewhat openly) built their program by doing exactly what they agreed they wouldn't do. 

My post was probably too long as it was, but I meant to include a sentence or two that addressed the point you just made when I made reference to The Field of Dreams.  Because IMG did have initial success, they were able to attract players from across the county.  These kids filled the gaps that existed the first few years when IMG had a group of 3-5star skill players, but very little, if any, depth.   Now, many families are willing to pay full freight for their kids to attend IMG to get the training and visibility that goes along with being a part of the program (whether the kid ends up playing on the National team or the White team).  But, that does not change my perception that the ultra successful program that exists today was built on false foundation by a program that openly recruited in violation of the rules while the organization in charge turned a blind eye. 

HornetFan, if you've read my posts over the last couple of years, you will know that I recognize there is a distinction between "recruiting" and "attracting."   Successful programs attract kids.  The transfer rules in place now make that even easier.  The rich get richer (or at least stay rich), while it becomes darn near impossible for a school to slowly build up its program into a successful one.  But, those are the rules.  On the other hand, a concerted effort by a school to reach out to specific players that are not already enrolled at that school for the purpose of trying to convince those specific players to attend that school instead is recruiting and, last time I checked, still illegal. 

My bottom line is simple:  either change the rules or enforce them. 

"My bottom line is simple:  either change the rules or enforce them."  I agree with you 100%.

[THIS_IS_DILLARD]

7 minutes ago, HornetFan said:

"My bottom line is simple:  either change the rules or enforce them."  I agree with you 100%.

I agree 

[DisabledAccount]

2 hours ago, THIS_IS_DILLARD said:

How I feel about all this img is no diff then STA & vice versa & if that’s the case STA Shouldn’t qualify for the FHSAA either. 
 

were either gonna respect recruiting fully or despise it fully, private or public school.

Why only mention STA

 

I can again name 50 or so schools both private and public that get more transfers than they do, some that even blatantly recruit too 

 

My point is there are schools doing far worse than STA, the only difference is a lot of those schools aren't winning state titles so nobody seems to care 

 

So why do people only get upset when teams are doing it and winning? Isn't the rules being broken either way?

[Perspective]

2 hours ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

My point is there are schools doing far worse than STA, the only difference is a lot of those schools aren't winning state titles so nobody seems to care 

 

So why do people only get upset when teams are doing it and winning? Isn't the rules being broken either way?

First, we know, we know . . . Lee gets more transfers than most private schools in Duval. 

Second, in answer to your last question, it's human nature.  Think back to grade school P.E.   If a kid got a false start in a race, but you still smoked him, did you really care that he cheated?  If a kid took five steps after he stopped dribbling, but still missed the layup, did you really care that he traveled?  Or even in class, if a kid cheated on a test, but you still aced it, did you really care that he got a 70 instead of failing it?   In short, it's just human nature to ignore violations that don't impact you or someone you care about.   

I've said for years that if a coach or team is going to cheat, they should do it when they're not any good, because then no one will care.   Seriously, if a high school team in your area holds a frickin' Friday Night Lights recruiting fair for all 8th graders in the county, but then goes 0-10 the next season, do you really care?  Arguably, you should, because that team may just be building from the ground up and kick your butt in 3-4 years when all the kids they recruited are seniors.  But, that's just not human nature.  We all tend to let things slide when they don't adversely affect us. 

So, of course coaches and teams that break the rules should be punished equally, regardless of their success on the field.  But very few schools are going to turn in a coach or school that is out there actively recruiting when the team sucks.  More likely than not, they'll just laugh at the cheaters ("They're so bad, they're cheating and still can't win a game!").  But all that changes when we start talking about the top dogs -- in part because, often times, those teams are having success at your team's expense.  I can guarantee you that every coach, player and fan of a team that finished runner-up in a state title game is looking across the field wondering if any of the kids on the winning team were illegally recruited and, if so, whether any of those kids made a difference in the outcome of the game. 

In short, if you beat me fair and square, I'll respect you.  If you have to cheat to beat me, I'll detest you.  Again, it's just human nature. 

[DisabledAccount]

5 minutes ago, Perspective said:

First, we know, we know . . . Lee gets more transfers than most private schools in Duval. 

Second, in answer to your last question, it's human nature.  Think back to grade school P.E.   If a kid got a false start in a race, but you still smoked him, did you really care that he cheated?  If a kid took five steps after he stopped dribbling, but still missed the layup, did you really care that he traveled?  Or even in class, if a kid cheated on a test, but you still aced it, did you really care that he got a 70 instead of failing it?   In short, it's just human nature to ignore violations that don't impact you or someone you care about.   

I've said for years that if a coach or team is going to cheat, they should do it when they're not any good, because then no one will care.   Seriously, if a high school team in your area holds a frickin' Friday Night Lights recruiting fair for all 8th graders in the county, but then goes 0-10 the next season, do you really care?  Arguably, you should, because that team may just be building from the ground up and kick your butt in 3-4 years when all the kids they recruited are seniors.  But, that's just not human nature.  We all tend to let things slide when they don't adversely affect us. 

So, of course coaches and teams that break the rules should be punished equally, regardless of their success on the field.  But very few schools are going to turn in a coach or school that is out there actively recruiting when the team sucks.  More likely than not, they'll just laugh at the cheaters ("They're so bad, they're cheating and still can't win a game!").  But all that changes when we start talking about the top dogs -- in part because, often times, those teams are having success at your team's expense.  I can guarantee you that every coach, player and fan of a team that finished runner-up in a state title game is looking across the field wondering if any of the kids on the winning team were illegally recruited and, if so, whether any of those kids made a difference in the outcome of the game. 

In short, if you beat me fair and square, I'll respect you.  If you have to cheat to beat me, I'll detest you.  Again, it's just human nature. 

You may have a point, I see us face a lot of recruiters and some can get wins and others lose regardless and similarly we face some dirty teams who will late hit us and we still beat them but normally I don't care 

 

My issue is when teams start making up lies about our program when there team are cheating through both methods I mentioned above but have the nerve to play themselves off as an honorable program when they are full of crap

[Hwy17]

2 hours ago, Perspective said:

First, we know, we know . . . Lee gets more transfers than most private schools in Duval. 

Second, in answer to your last question, it's human nature.  Think back to grade school P.E.   If a kid got a false start in a race, but you still smoked him, did you really care that he cheated?  If a kid took five steps after he stopped dribbling, but still missed the layup, did you really care that he traveled?  Or even in class, if a kid cheated on a test, but you still aced it, did you really care that he got a 70 instead of failing it?   In short, it's just human nature to ignore violations that don't impact you or someone you care about.   

I've said for years that if a coach or team is going to cheat, they should do it when they're not any good, because then no one will care.   Seriously, if a high school team in your area holds a frickin' Friday Night Lights recruiting fair for all 8th graders in the county, but then goes 0-10 the next season, do you really care?  Arguably, you should, because that team may just be building from the ground up and kick your butt in 3-4 years when all the kids they recruited are seniors.  But, that's just not human nature.  We all tend to let things slide when they don't adversely affect us. 

So, of course coaches and teams that break the rules should be punished equally, regardless of their success on the field.  But very few schools are going to turn in a coach or school that is out there actively recruiting when the team sucks.  More likely than not, they'll just laugh at the cheaters ("They're so bad, they're cheating and still can't win a game!").  But all that changes when we start talking about the top dogs -- in part because, often times, those teams are having success at your team's expense.  I can guarantee you that every coach, player and fan of a team that finished runner-up in a state title game is looking across the field wondering if any of the kids on the winning team were illegally recruited and, if so, whether any of those kids made a difference in the outcome of the game. 

In short, if you beat me fair and square, I'll respect you.  If you have to cheat to beat me, I'll detest you.  Again, it's just human nature. 

I can remember back in the mid-2000s when Lakeland was beating STA in the state championships it was the STA fans crying foul about Lakeland getting transfers. This was before the open transfer rules we have now. Then in 2011 the FHSAA threw the book at Armwood.

[FBGUY1989]

Question if anyone knows but how did IMG Academy come about 

[FBGUY1989]

On 6/11/2021 at 11:29 PM, THIS_IS_DILLARD said:

I don’t know now, as talented as MNW is they struggle with well coached teams EX...img ...& Lowndes 

I can see the raiders beating them & it’s possible for the bulls to win to, but MNW is playing STA at the right time the first game of the season.

Central is the same way remember they lost to two OOS teams 

Grayson 35-3

St. Frances Academy 49-13

[THIS_IS_DILLARD]

8 hours ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

Why only mention STA

 

I can again name 50 or so schools both private and public that get more transfers than they do, some that even blatantly recruit too 

 

My point is there are schools doing far worse than STA, the only difference is a lot of those schools aren't winning state titles so nobody seems to care 

 

So why do people only get upset when teams are doing it and winning? Isn't the rules being broken either way?

I didn’t only mention STA in a post above on this very thread, I mentioned MNW MC CG AHP & etc. and also in my last post I mentioned PRIVATE & PUBLIC schools ; which is why I said if we’re gonna hate Recruiting & Etc Then We Need To Despise it 100% regardless of What School it is or their Success Rate. 

[THIS_IS_DILLARD]

5 hours ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

You may have a point, I see us face a lot of recruiters and some can get wins and others lose regardless and similarly we face some dirty teams who will late hit us and we still beat them but normally I don't care 

 

My issue is when teams start making up lies about our program when there team are cheating through both methods I mentioned above but have the nerve to play themselves off as an honorable program when they are full of crap

And me mentioning STA was because perspective made a comment about img, and someone said how they respect img for who who they are, and how they don’t hide who they are which is why they play a national schedule & I mentioned that STA & iMG is basically the same type of school that do the same things so if img doesn’t qualify to compete for a state title neither should STA. 

[Perspective]

11 hours ago, FBGUY1989 said:

Question if anyone knows but how did IMG Academy come about 

It started in the late 1970's as a tennis academy.  I believe it has always had a "boarding school" element. 

This is from the IMG Academy website:  "IMG Academy is the world’s most prestigious sports, performance and educational institution. Established in 1978 with a pioneering concept known as the Nick Bollettieri Tennis Academy, IMG Academy has since grown to become a global phenomenon."

From MaxPreps, it appears that IMG's first football season was in 2013-14.  They went 8-2 under head coach Chris Weinke.

Oh, by the way, just in case you were wondering, here's what the website says about their tuition:  "For academic year 2021-2022, tuition ranges from $64,400 to $84,400 per year depending on age, boarding and grade of student-athlete."

[HornetFan]

19 hours ago, FBGUY1989 said:

Central is the same way remember they lost to two OOS teams 

Grayson 35-3

St. Frances Academy 49-13

"St. Frances Academy 49-13"

And the SFA game wasn't that close. I think SFA was embarrassed for MC and let up in the 2nd half.

[FBGUY1989]

8 hours ago, Perspective said:

It started in the late 1970's as a tennis academy.  I believe it has always had a "boarding school" element. 

This is from the IMG Academy website:  "IMG Academy is the world’s most prestigious sports, performance and educational institution. Established in 1978 with a pioneering concept known as the Nick Bollettieri Tennis Academy, IMG Academy has since grown to become a global phenomenon."

From MaxPreps, it appears that IMG's first football season was in 2013-14.  They went 8-2 under head coach Chris Weinke.

Oh, by the way, just in case you were wondering, here's what the website says about their tuition:  "For academic year 2021-2022, tuition ranges from $64,400 to $84,400 per year depending on age, boarding and grade 

I didn't know this history of the school thanks and that tuition is high

[Perspective]

12 hours ago, FBGUY1989 said:

I didn't know this history of the school thanks and that tuition is high

Yes it is . . . but something tells me not every kid is paying that.  

[THIS_IS_DILLARD]

1 hour ago, Perspective said:

Yes it is . . . but something tells me not every kid is paying that.  

Of course not lol

[DisabledAccount]

2 hours ago, Perspective said:

Yes it is . . . but something tells me not every kid is paying that.  

White team player's parents pay so they can say their kid plays for IMG while the blue team gives scholarships to studs to get the best talent 

 

They game the system very well and it's why they got the state giving them money each year and can build an on campus hotel while public schools in Florida are barely able to financially support some programs

[THIS_IS_DILLARD]

31 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

White team player's parents pay so they can say their kid plays for IMG while the blue team gives scholarships to studs to get the best talent 

 

They game the system very well and it's why they got the state giving them money each year and can build an on campus hotel while public schools in Florida are barely able to financially support some programs

A on campus hotel ? I haven’t been to their complex since the time Dillard played them I believe back in 2015 2016 ..they’ve must’ve really built up since then.