RPI is a joke

[DisabledAccount]

17 minutes ago, Perspective said:

Almost 10 years . . . back to 2012 when the Knights went undefeated in their district and proceeded to win 3 playoff games, before losing a nail-biter to eventual state champion Tallahassee Godby, 24-20, in the state semi-finals.  Of course, it hasn't helped Robinson much to be in the same district with Tampa Jesuit and Jefferson all those years. 

See my point

 

It's highly unlikely they would have done any better than Jefferson so saying they should have made it over Jefferson is based on what exactly?

[Ray Icaza]

More of your stupidity as when does a team with a better record and beats the other team head to head get left out because of not winning their district.  Your example in reverse, finish second and also get in is much easier to accept than this formula which is definitely subjective.

[DisabledAccount]

30 minutes ago, Perspective said:

With all due respect to both ColumbiaHF and Miami Central, if you can't finish better than 3rd in your district, you probably don't deserve to make it into the playoffs.    CHF, to use your logic, it's unlikely that a team that doesn't make it to the SEC championship game is going to secure one of the four spots in the national champtionship playoffs  - although it's possible.  My point is simple:  MC had two chances to at least be the district runner-up and didn't make it happen.  However good they may have been in the past or the future, for that season, they weren't good enough to finish first or second in their district, so I'm OK with them being left out. 

If an occasional team with a losing record does make it in, they likely won't make it past the first round, so it basically gives the top seeded team(s) a relatively easy opening playoff game where they can rest some starters and play some second-teamers. 

Last, the biggest problem I have with the "rewards tough scheduling"  concept is that some schools have very little control over the vast majority of their scheduling (i.e., if they're in a big district or in a county, like Hillsborough, where the County handles almost all of a team's scheduling).   In addition, while the pundits and coaches may think they know which teams are likely to be good again when they're making up their schedules, when it comes to high school teams, it can be a roll of the dice. 

I'll give you this example just to make my point.  Say you were a high school coach in South Florida and you were trying to beef up your schedule for 2021 because, you know, you want to increase your chances of having a higher RPI and getting home playoff games.  So, last spring you reached out to Hallandale and scheduled them.   How'd that turn out? 

I'm not necessarily opposed the RPI concept; but I don't like teams getting a huge advantage in the playoffs based on an RPI formula that has some serious issues. 

If you think a team beating a winless team in a 3 team district is playoff worthy but a team who lost to two teams ranked top 10 in the state than this debate is a waste of my time and I shouldn't even bother debating this with anyone who clearly has no insight on the reality of the situation

 

But hey where's the sarcasm that everyone on this board seems to have to make up fot them not having a damn clue what they are talking about

[DisabledAccount]

1 minute ago, Ray Icaza said:

More of your stupidity as when does a team with a better record and beats the other team head to head get left out because of not winning their district.  Your example in reverse, finish second and also get in is much easier to accept than this formula which is definitely subjective.

If you think a 1-9 Eastside team is more playoff worthy then 8-2 Miami Central than you are the one who is talking from a stupid point of view 

[Ray Icaza]

5 minutes ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

If you think a 1-9 Eastside team is more playoff worthy then 8-2 Miami Central than you are the one who is talking from a stupid point of view 

I never said that Eastside team was more deserving than the Miami Central team so you obviously have to lie about that to strengthen your argument.  That was wrong and the examples I gave you are wrong, so the RPI system hasn't fixed or improved the old system as it still leaves out deserving teams.  But you claim on any subject to know more than anyone on this forum because you are the smart one.  Most people don't seem to agree with that assessment so keep up the delusion.

[Hwy17]

3 team districts was the real problem. When there were 7-9 team districts the top 2 had winning records.

[Perspective]

1 hour ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

You said the previous system was better so yes you are saying that because that's what the previous system pushed out 

 

I don't have to lie about shit unlike you so keep your mouth shut about something you clearly don't have a damn clue about

Dude, (and I'm saying this to you in the respectful way that an older uncle might say it), chill out. 

I respect your passion and you are a knowledgeable young man.  That doesn't mean that your opinion will always be shared by others.  But try not to take everything so personally. 

Just a bit of unsolicited advice from someone who's been there before.

[Proseteye]

Joshua. Where are your "Rules for the Forum" in this conversation. Nobody on this forum should be encouraged to call another forum member a "Jackass" and to use condescending and/our degrading language toward another forum member. Otherwise we get just like that other forum where many of us left for just such behavior. 

[SportsNut25]

Alright folks, let's remember the rules here and be respectful of each other. 

Posts have been removed and I'm hoping we can keep the conversation respectful moving forward. 

[gatorman-uf]

On 9/30/2021 at 5:16 PM, PinellasFB said:

Okay, that's officially terrible lol.  A HS calculus student could come up with something better than that.  An undergraduate statistics major could certainly come up with a much more meaningful power index.  

edit typos

I have problems with the RPI (different than yours), but the formula is pretty much the FHSAA basic formula.
College Basketball RPI:
RPI = (WP * 0.25) + (OWP * 0.50) + (OOWP * 0.25)

FHSAA RPI:
RPI = (WP * 0.35) + (OWP * 0.35) + (OOWP * 0.30)

The change was mostly due to coaches wanting winning to matter more.
----------------

On 9/30/2021 at 2:34 PM, PinellasFB said:

Nearly all formulas have one thing in common:  they grow more accurate as more teams start playing common opponents and the initial strength weightings that are necessary at the beginning of the season lose their significance relative to actual data.  Always expect some wonky results until everybody has played common opponents and the "relative" part of relative power index can take hold.

As more games have played, we have seen a correction. FHSAA's main problem was they released the RPI waaaaaay too early! RPI should be released until like week 8 or 9 at the earliest.

 

On 9/30/2021 at 7:42 PM, Hwy17 said:

I can't see how RPI, or the point system used in 2018 are that much of an improvement over district champ & district runner-up format previously used.  This was supposed to keep teams with losing records from making the playoffs while ones with winning seasons are kept out. Has either system really accomplished that goal? Not always.

They wanted every game to count. My argument to people like @ColumbiaHighFan2017class back then was nothing was stopping teams from playing a challenging schedule, because there was no punishment if you lost the game as long as you won your district. Now, every game counts.

Have the good teams substantially upgraded their schedules to find good local and state-wide games or do most teams play the same teams they always play? I think you do see a small improvement in schedules (some counties even allow of county travel), but most teams are still playing within a short distance. 
 

On 10/1/2021 at 12:55 AM, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

District runner up system put a 1-9 Eastside team in with a 8-2 Miami Central team missing the playoffs after winning the previous 4 state titles and both losses coming to teams ranked top 10 in the state but sure perfect system to a blind man 

@ColumbiaHighFan2017class loves to bring up the 1-9 Eastside team, but he forgets that an 0-10 Gadsden County made the playoffs over Andrew Jackson in one of the first years of the point system (not the current RPI system). Systems have one offs, get used to it. Should it happen, no, but it does. If it was a constant trend, we should worry. If the FHSAA didn't learn a lesson from it, we should worry. 

 

[DisabledAccount]

6 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

I have problems with the RPI (different than yours), but the formula is pretty much the FHSAA basic formula.
College Basketball RPI:
RPI = (WP * 0.25) + (OWP * 0.50) + (OOWP * 0.25)

FHSAA RPI:
RPI = (WP * 0.35) + (OWP * 0.35) + (OOWP * 0.30)

The change was mostly due to coaches wanting winning to matter more.
----------------

As more games have played, we have seen a correction. FHSAA's main problem was they released the RPI waaaaaay too early! RPI should be released until like week 8 or 9 at the earliest.

 

They wanted every game to count. My argument to people like @ColumbiaHighFan2017class back then was nothing was stopping teams from playing a challenging schedule, because there was no punishment if you lost the game as long as you won your district. Now, every game counts.

Have the good teams substantially upgraded their schedules to find good local and state-wide games or do most teams play the same teams they always play? I think you do see a small improvement in schedules (some counties even allow of county travel), but most teams are still playing within a short distance. 
 

@ColumbiaHighFan2017class loves to bring up the 1-9 Eastside team, but he forgets that an 0-10 Gadsden County made the playoffs over Andrew Jackson in one of the first years of the point system (not the current RPI system). Systems have one offs, get used to it. Should it happen, no, but it does. If it was a constant trend, we should worry. If the FHSAA didn't learn a lesson from it, we should worry. 

 

you want to know the ironic thing of jackson missing the playoffs that year

right before the season started they canceled on the former Lee High school and ended that rivalry and gave them no time to find a replacement 

Lee would have blown jackson out but had they played Lee even with a loss that would have boosted their points enough to get them in over Gadsden  county 

but you want to know why a team like Gadsden can make the playoffs?   currently a 1 win jefferson county team is projected to make the playoffs as a 6 seed BECAUSE WHEN YOU HAVE REGIONS OF 9 TEAMS AND HAVE 6 MAKE THE PLAYOFFS YOU WILL HAVE LOSING TEAMS MAKE IT

all could be prevented if 1-4a went to 2 regions instead of 4 as I've said multiple times but nobody listens 

[DisabledAccount]

7 minutes ago, gatorman-uf said:

I have problems with the RPI (different than yours), but the formula is pretty much the FHSAA basic formula.
College Basketball RPI:
RPI = (WP * 0.25) + (OWP * 0.50) + (OOWP * 0.25)

FHSAA RPI:
RPI = (WP * 0.35) + (OWP * 0.35) + (OOWP * 0.30)

The change was mostly due to coaches wanting winning to matter more.
----------------

As more games have played, we have seen a correction. FHSAA's main problem was they released the RPI waaaaaay too early! RPI should be released until like week 8 or 9 at the earliest.

 

They wanted every game to count. My argument to people like @ColumbiaHighFan2017class back then was nothing was stopping teams from playing a challenging schedule, because there was no punishment if you lost the game as long as you won your district. Now, every game counts.

Have the good teams substantially upgraded their schedules to find good local and state-wide games or do most teams play the same teams they always play? I think you do see a small improvement in schedules (some counties even allow of county travel), but most teams are still playing within a short distance. 
 

@ColumbiaHighFan2017class loves to bring up the 1-9 Eastside team, but he forgets that an 0-10 Gadsden County made the playoffs over Andrew Jackson in one of the first years of the point system (not the current RPI system). Systems have one offs, get used to it. Should it happen, no, but it does. If it was a constant trend, we should worry. If the FHSAA didn't learn a lesson from it, we should worry. 

 

Columbia is actually playing better schedules now

yes before a team wasn't punished for it but they weren't rewarded either 

a 7A team going 10-0 playing all teams out of district in 4a or lower counts the same as a 7A team playing all state ranked teams in their non district games

and I have never liked the idea that a few random Jacksonville games are the only ones on the schedule that "counts" 

[Hwy17]

When two teams have the exact same w/l record but one of the two beat the other in a head-to-head match up you'd think the winner of that game should be the one that gets in to the playoffs. 

[badbird]

On 10/13/2021 at 8:47 PM, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

you want to know the ironic thing of jackson missing the playoffs that year

right before the season started they canceled on the former Lee High school and ended that rivalry and gave them no time to find a replacement 

Lee would have blown jackson out but had they played Lee even with a loss that would have boosted their points enough to get them in over Gadsden  county 

but you want to know why a team like Gadsden can make the playoffs?   currently a 1 win jefferson county team is projected to make the playoffs as a 6 seed BECAUSE WHEN YOU HAVE REGIONS OF 9 TEAMS AND HAVE 6 MAKE THE PLAYOFFS YOU WILL HAVE LOSING TEAMS MAKE IT

all could be prevented if 1-4a went to 2 regions instead of 4 as I've said multiple times but nobody listens 

1-4A doesn't have enough teams in each class.  We have way too many classes.  

[badbird]

On 10/13/2021 at 8:40 PM, gatorman-uf said:

As more games have played, we have seen a correction. FHSAA's main problem was they released the RPI waaaaaay too early! RPI should be released until like week 8 or 9 at the earliest.

 

Nothing ever is going to be perfect but with 500 Florida football teams and only playing 10 regular season games the RPI will never be as accurate as it should be.   

 

 

[Hwy17]

54 minutes ago, badbird said:

1-4A doesn't have enough teams in each class.  We have way too many classes.  

1-4A are half classes.

[DisabledAccount]

1 hour ago, badbird said:

1-4A doesn't have enough teams in each class.  We have way too many classes.  

 

47 minutes ago, Hwy17 said:

1-4A are half classes.

So the idea I would do would be cut it into 2 regions 

You could even do 8 teams per region that way so instead of 24 teams per class making playoffs it's 16 teams per class 

 

Don't you think that MIGHT actually work to an extent?

[DisabledAccount]

On 9/30/2021 at 7:42 PM, Hwy17 said:

I can't see how RPI, or the point system used in 2018 are that much of an improvement over district champ & district runner-up format previously used.  This was supposed to keep teams with losing records from making the playoffs while ones with winning seasons are kept out. Has either system really accomplished that goal? Not always.

 

 

On 9/29/2018 at 10:17 PM, Hwy17 said:

I'm glad to see the district champ vs district runner up format gone. That format often created two strong teams meeting in the early rounds and the 3rd or 4th round being a blowout. Also glad to see fewer teams with losing records in the playoffs.  

 

[Hwy17]

1 hour ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:

 

 

 

In 3 years we seem to be right back where we were

[skyway]

At the moment, Lakeland is the top-ranked team in 7A, Region 2. Yet, because they lost 38-32 to Lake Gibson-currently sitting with three losses- Lakeland is all but guaranteed to play *every* single playoff game on the road due to automatically being seeded no better than #5 due to not being district champions. So, what's the point of having an RPI if it's really just all about winning whatever district you're placed in?

[DisabledAccount]

12 hours ago, skyway said:

At the moment, Lakeland is the top-ranked team in 7A, Region 2. Yet, because they lost 38-32 to Lake Gibson-currently sitting with three losses- Lakeland is all but guaranteed to play *every* single playoff game on the road due to automatically being seeded no better than #5 due to not being district champions. So, what's the point of having an RPI if it's really just all about winning whatever district you're placed in?

TO SEED THE DISTRICT CHAMPS

 

He's an example of why seeding should be used, 2015 Columbia plays at Lincoln in the regular season in Tallahassee and wins 

 

Both were in same region and won district, Columbia went 9-1 while Lincoln went 4-6. Columbia was sent on the road to Lincoln second round of the playoffs and even though Columbia won again in the playoffs Columbia was clearly the best team in the region so they earned home field advantage but instead of getting an additional playoff game at home which would be very profitable, we had to travel to a team at a site we already beat them at instead of hosting

 

And this is just a personal example there are a lot more of them but I don't see how having seeding is a bad thing considering it's done at every other level of sports 

[Hwy17]

Who remembers the 1999 & 2000 seasons?  Those two seasons there were only 3 Districts per region instead of 4.  Districts had more teams, usually 7.  District champs & runner-ups both got in the playoffs and two at large wildcard spots were reserved for the two teams with the best w/l record.   I don't remember any teams with losing seasons getting in the playoffs and a few of the wildcard teams went deep in the playoffs those years.

[muckboy561]

25 minutes ago, Hwy17 said:

Who remembers the 1999 & 2000 seasons?  Those two seasons there were only 3 Districts per region instead of 4.  Districts had more teams, usually 7.  District champs & runner-ups both got in the playoffs and two at large wildcard spots were reserved for the two teams with the best w/l record.   I don't remember any teams with losing seasons getting in the playoffs and a few of the wildcard teams went deep in the playoffs those years.

Bring back that formula please lol!!!

[Perspective]

42 minutes ago, Hwy17 said:

Who remembers the 1999 & 2000 seasons?  Those two seasons there were only 3 Districts per region instead of 4.  Districts had more teams, usually 7.  District champs & runner-ups both got in the playoffs and two at large wildcard spots were reserved for the two teams with the best w/l record.   I don't remember any teams with losing seasons getting in the playoffs and a few of the wildcard teams went deep in the playoffs those years.

Just curious, when it came time to pick the wildcard teams, how did they determine whether a 6-3 team from one district was better or worse than a 6-3 team from another district? 

[Ray Icaza]

30 minutes ago, Perspective said:

Just curious, when it came time to pick the wildcard teams, how did they determine whether a 6-3 team from one district was better or worse than a 6-3 team from another district? 

This formula seems to have merit as I like the two automatic qualifiers from each district with minimum of 6-7 teams per district.  The mathematical formula for RPI is there, so apply it to determine the wildcard teams knowing there will always be dissent from those that get left out.  As you rightfully pointed out earlier in this thread, if you can't place first or second in the district then we can live with you pissing and moaning about it.  Outliers can always be pointed out, but overall HWY17 idea I like.