Blocking Question?

[Jambun82]

7 hours ago, Cat_Scratch said:

In defense of the refs, you can't see every foul but a ref should be alert to a coach letting you know a player is repeatedly holding. 

I had an umpire kick me out of a game for telling him "thank you" after he made a bad call. He said I was harassing him. Some officials are just bad.

Did you play for a certain coach who changed jobs and moved to the county north of your school a few years back? 

[Jambun82]

10 hours ago, Ray Icaza said:

Basically, tackling someone from the chest???  Hell, let them go for the knees.

Blocking below the waist is now a foul unless if is immediately at the snap by lineman on other lineman (offensive or defensive).  

[Jambun82]

12 hours ago, PinellasFB said:

This is holding and will be called consistently at the college and NFL level.  However, at the HS level, dont expect it to be called.  There are 3 or 4 less officials on the field than college/NFL so they look for more obvious things like a jersey that is being pulled.  Without a dedicated referee to watch the lineman, the pulldown will hardly ever get called if done in a way that doesnt have the jersey extended.  It sounds like this might have been exploited and taught by the Bradford coach.  It is then up to the other coach to point this out to the refs so they look for it and call it.  Some refs, not surprisingly, are less familiar with the rules since there is a ref shortage and many are inexperienced.  You just have to adjust, honestly.  If they pull down then there are techniques to keep their hands off of you and make them pay for poor technique themselves.  

Good Head Coaches always know how to exploit the rules to their team's advantage. Most schools have about 25 assistant "coaches"  who seemingly do nothing more than act as team cheerleaders during the game. One of these "coaches" could be given the task of learning the NFHS rules verbatim, so the Head Coach can have the tools needed to make the rules work for his team. 

[Jambun82]

10 hours ago, 120North said:

My son plays DE, so naturally I watch the line of scrimmage play most often.  Holding happens a lot more than it is actually flagged (no surprise).  Most refs will not call it unless it is at the point of attack usually.  My son used to get mad about it, but he has learned that it is what it is and just play through it.  He had a guy pretty much get him in a head lock while chasing the qb right in front of the white hat.  He asks the white hat if he saw that after the play was over, he responded "just play football".  

I would assume that your son was satisfied after the first round victory over Lake Brantley. 

[Jambun82]

11 hours ago, Ray Icaza said:

You are relying on wishful thinking if you really believe this is happening most of the time.

However, it is NOT wishful thinking that you may attain my autograph one day. I know how important that is to you, and I will try to follow through. 

[Jambun82]

14 hours ago, 561_Fan said:

Chest area, around the numbers. Didn’t know OL could pull the DL down without a penalty 

Most of the time, that will be a foul. 

[PinellasFB]

11 hours ago, 120North said:

My son plays DE, so naturally I watch the line of scrimmage play most often.  Holding happens a lot more than it is actually flagged (no surprise).  Most refs will not call it unless it is at the point of attack usually.  My son used to get mad about it, but he has learned that it is what it is and just play through it.  He had a guy pretty much get him in a head lock while chasing the qb right in front of the white hat.  He asks the white hat if he saw that after the play was over, he responded "just play football".  

This 100%.  I was on the chain gang a couple times this year and the line judge would point out some obvious fouls like holding or illegal formation but he would let it go many times with a warning that he would call it next time, etc.  He couldve literally called a penalty every other play if he enforced everything whether it affected the play or not.  I would rather have this style of ref than the enforcer.  That being said, I saw OL tackling DL or grabbing them and slinging them to the ground and I thought those fouls should be enforced to encourage fair play on the line but this was a mild complaint as I was glad the game was moving, at least.

[Perspective]

Hey, Jambun, I've got another scenario for you:   is it a foul for an offensive player (usually a lineman on the end of a pancake block) to literally lay on the defensive player and essentially pin the defensive player to the ground until the whistle blows?   Or is that a legal play?  Does it matter if the defensive player is on his back or on his stomach (such that during the continuing block, if that's what you want to call it, the offensive player is basically blocking the defensive player in the back)?    Can the offensive player initiate contact with the defensive player when the defensive player already is on the ground?  Just curious.   Thanks. 

[Ray Icaza]

10 hours ago, Jambun82 said:

If there was physical contact between two players, the foul should have been a personal foul, not unsportsmanlike conduct. Where was the football in relation to this action that you have described? 

It was a pass play, so 30 or so yards downfield; this maneuver helped the QB with additional time to find his receiver.  Whether it was called unsportsmanlike conduct or a personal foul is immaterial as the call should have been "HOLDING".  That is what we are talking about so don't go off on another tangent.

 

10 hours ago, Jambun82 said:

If there was physical contact between two players, the foul should have been a personal foul, not unsportsmanlike conduct. Where was the football in relation to this action that you have described? 

 

[Cat_Scratch]

23 hours ago, Jambun82 said:

Did you play for a certain coach who changed jobs and moved to the county north of your school a few years back? 

To answer your question, I believe I know the coach  in reference. Nothing but respect for that coach.

I graduated HS in 71, and after college I worked for Florida Today/USA Today until 2012. All but a few of my coaches have passed on. Blackburn for Wrestling 4 years (1968 - 1971), Higgenbotham for football Freshman year (1968), Miller for swimming 3 years (1969 - 1971), My Dad and Mckee for Baseball (1960 - 1969). 

However, I coached league Baseball, Jr-Sr's from 1998 - 2021. I'm fairly certain this year was my last year coaching after nearly dying from a nasty illness that hit Florida fairly hard. I may continue to umpire if the league needs me though.

 

[Jambun82]

15 hours ago, Perspective said:

Hey, Jambun, I've got another scenario for you:   is it a foul for an offensive player (usually a lineman on the end of a pancake block) to literally lay on the defensive player and essentially pin the defensive player to the ground until the whistle blows?   Or is that a legal play?  Does it matter if the defensive player is on his back or on his stomach (such that during the continuing block, if that's what you want to call it, the offensive player is basically blocking the defensive player in the back)?    Can the offensive player initiate contact with the defensive player when the defensive player already is on the ground?  Just curious.   Thanks. 

There is no specific rule regarding an offensive player contacting a defensive player who is already on the ground. Also, it doesn't matter if a player is on his back or stomach. Whether this is a foul or not would have to depend on the circumstance of the play. 

[Jambun82]

14 hours ago, Ray Icaza said:

It was a pass play, so 30 or so yards downfield; this maneuver helped the QB with additional time to find his receiver.  Whether it was called unsportsmanlike conduct or a personal foul is immaterial as the call should have been "HOLDING".  That is what we are talking about so don't go off on another tangent.

 

 

I am explaining why a certain action that would lead to a foul is one penalty and not another, so I am hardly going off on a tangent. The difference between an Unsportsmanlike Conduct and a Personal Foul penalty is NOT immaterial since the potential punishment of these two penalties is different. Holding can be a judgment call so it would help if the play was viewed visually before committing either way.   

[Jambun82]

1 hour ago, Cat_Scratch said:

To answer your question, I believe I know the coach  in reference. Nothing but respect for that coach.

I graduated HS in 71, and after college I worked for Florida Today/USA Today until 2012. All but a few of my coaches have passed on. Blackburn for Wrestling 4 years (1968 - 1971), Higgenbotham for football Freshman year (1968), Miller for swimming 3 years (1969 - 1971), My Dad and Mckee for Baseball (1960 - 1969). 

However, I coached league Baseball, Jr-Sr's from 1998 - 2021. I'm fairly certain this year was my last year coaching after nearly dying from a nasty illness that hit Florida fairly hard. I may continue to umpire if the league needs me though.

 

Oh all right. You may feel differently about this coach if you were aware of the way that he has conducted himself at his new place of employment. 

[Ray Icaza]

8 hours ago, Jambun82 said:

I am explaining why a certain action that would lead to a foul is one penalty and not another, so I am hardly going off on a tangent. The difference between an Unsportsmanlike Conduct and a Personal Foul penalty is NOT immaterial since the potential punishment of these two penalties is different. Holding can be a judgment call so it would help if the play was viewed visually before committing either way.   

Both are of the 15 yard variety, so it is immaterial as you are still missing the point of the holding call that was missed.  If you wish to view the play it is on video:  Lakeland vs Apopka this year and it occurred on the final drive that enabled Lakeland to retake the lead as time ran out.  It most likely affected the final outcome as Lakeland picked up a chunk play instead of going backwards 10 yards, the net result being a field position shift of at least 30 yards with time running out. 

[Jambun82]

3 hours ago, Ray Icaza said:

Both are of the 15 yard variety, so it is immaterial as you are still missing the point of the holding call that was missed.  If you wish to view the play it is on video:  Lakeland vs Apopka this year and it occurred on the final drive that enabled Lakeland to retake the lead as time ran out.  It most likely affected the final outcome as Lakeland picked up a chunk play instead of going backwards 10 yards, the net result being a field position shift of at least 30 yards with time running out. 

All right, that was most likely a holding foul that should have been a penalty. What I am talking about is not immaterial though because a second Unsportsmanlike Conduct Foul on a player or coach is automatically an ejection, while a second Personal Foul on a player or coach is not. Also, it is explicitly stressed in the NFHS rule book that Unsportsmanlike Conduct is a non-contact foul. 

[Ray Icaza]

5 hours ago, Jambun82 said:

All right, that was most likely a holding foul that should have been a penalty. What I am talking about is not immaterial though because a second Unsportsmanlike Conduct Foul on a player or coach is automatically an ejection, while a second Personal Foul on a player or coach is not. Also, it is explicitly stressed in the NFHS rule book that Unsportsmanlike Conduct is a non-contact foul. 

Still splitting hairs as I have watched HS football for a long time and can't recall a player getting kicked out for a second unsportsmanlike conduct call in a game.  But you are right that they did call it a personal foul when they should have called it holding.

[Jambun82]

5 hours ago, Ray Icaza said:

Still splitting hairs as I have watched HS football for a long time and can't recall a player getting kicked out for a second unsportsmanlike conduct call in a game.  But you are right that they did call it a personal foul when they should have called it holding.

Let me state this one again: TWO UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT FOULS BY THE SAME PLAYER OR NON-PLAYER IN THE SAME GAME IS AN AUTOMATIC DISQUALIFICATION! UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT IS A NON-CONTACT FOUL! Rule references 9-5. 9-8. Did you understand that this time?