Rules question

[Perspective]

Jambun, I've got another rules question for you, but since this one involves college football (I don't know if the rule is the same in high school or not; please advise) and since it involves a policy question, I'll open it up to the floor.

If you happened to watch the UF/FSU game this Saturday, you may remember the play when Dameon Peirce, the Gator RB, had his helmet removed for him by a would-be FSU tackler at the FSU 5-yard line.  No face-mask penalty was called (which, in my opinion, was the right "no" call).  However, the Gator RB continued to run, ultimately diving into the end zone into and between two FSU defenders.  The  penalty was assessed against the Gator RB.  If I recall correctly, he got a 15-yard personal foul penalty for continuing to play after his helmet came off.  OK, I get it.  It's a safety issue.   They want the player to stop cold if his helmet comes off, however and wherever it may happen.   In the heat of the battle, they nevertheless want the player to defy his instincts and just turn it off and stop playing. 

Now, here's where it gets confusing:  a personal foul was called on one of the FSU defensive players (#10, I think), who was involved in the play, but I think the penalty was for his extracurricular activities after the play was over and even after the dead ball tackles were made, and not for the reason which is the subject of my question. 

So, here's my question:  if a player continues to play after his helmet comes off (and, presumably, the whistle blows the play dead), it's a 15 personal foul against that player.  But what about the players on the other team who react to the offensive player's continued play and hit him?  Isn't that (or shouldn't that) be a penalty as well?  Would that be a live ball foul or a dead ball foul?  Is there a distinction?   What if three defenders converge on a helmet-less offensive player that is still moving, should each one of them receive a dead ball personal foul penalty?  If not, why not? 

Thanks in advance. 

[badbird]

1 hour ago, Perspective said:

Jambun, I've got another rules question for you, but since this one involves college football (I don't know if the rule is the same in high school or not; please advise) and since it involves a policy question, I'll open it up to the floor.

If you happened to watch the UF/FSU game this Saturday, you may remember the play when Dameon Peirce, the Gator RB, had his helmet removed for him by a would-be FSU tackler at the FSU 5-yard line.  No face-mask penalty was called (which, in my opinion, was the right "no" call).  However, the Gator RB continued to run, ultimately diving into the end zone into and between two FSU defenders.  The  penalty was assessed against the Gator RB.  If I recall correctly, he got a 15-yard personal foul penalty for continuing to play after his helmet came off.  OK, I get it.  It's a safety issue.   They want the player to stop cold if his helmet comes off, however and wherever it may happen.   In the heat of the battle, they nevertheless want the player to defy his instincts and just turn it off and stop playing. 

Now, here's where it gets confusing:  a personal foul was called on one of the FSU defensive players (#10, I think), who was involved in the play, but I think the penalty was for his extracurricular activities after the play was over and even after the dead ball tackles were made, and not for the reason which is the subject of my question. 

So, here's my question:  if a player continues to play after his helmet comes off (and, presumably, the whistle blows the play dead), it's a 15 personal foul against that player.  But what about the players on the other team who react to the offensive player's continued play and hit him?  Isn't that (or shouldn't that) be a penalty as well?  Would that be a live ball foul or a dead ball foul?  Is there a distinction?   What if three defenders converge on a helmet-less offensive player that is still moving, should each one of them receive a dead ball personal foul penalty?  If not, why not? 

Thanks in advance. 

When the ball carriers helmet comes off the play is dead,  The officials should have been blowing the whistle.  He took two more steps before the whistles blew and at this time he was about to enter the endzone.  I'm pretty sure the FSU player got a penalty for hitting him as he entered the endzone because the flag was thrown before the small altercation after.  

 

https://sports.yahoo.com/florida-rb-dameon-pierce-penalized-for-scoring-a-touchdown-without-his-helmet-201057897.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAANZ6GGCEGI81LyNRS4eL3bpffAPQNRfErqPrRLEl1KeKsCK-sR93pL3USdPOD3nFIZHDnnnLoLDlQuyEVR2NH5WMtHX1Ln99HzdWnyxlPGOHJ7HY5H-fyEd_ln2nuVoPcuA71Cf6fs0IubsafhpfiHd1ukpa4cs4TX822g2dZrxK

[Ray Icaza]

30 minutes ago, badbird said:

When the ball carriers helmet comes off the play is dead,  The officials should have been blowing the whistle.  He took two more steps before the whistles blew and at this time he was about to enter the endzone.  I'm pretty sure the FSU player got a penalty for hitting him as he entered the endzone because the flag was thrown before the small altercation after.  

 

https://sports.yahoo.com/florida-rb-dameon-pierce-penalized-for-scoring-a-touchdown-without-his-helmet-201057897.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAANZ6GGCEGI81LyNRS4eL3bpffAPQNRfErqPrRLEl1KeKsCK-sR93pL3USdPOD3nFIZHDnnnLoLDlQuyEVR2NH5WMtHX1Ln99HzdWnyxlPGOHJ7HY5H-fyEd_ln2nuVoPcuA71Cf6fs0IubsafhpfiHd1ukpa4cs4TX822g2dZrxK

Then if logic matters, they should have been offsetting but they weren't.  They marched off the full 15 against the Gators and only half the distance against the Noles.  Makes no sense.

[Perspective]

2 hours ago, Ray Icaza said:

Then if logic matters, they should have been offsetting but they weren't.  They marched off the full 15 against the Gators and only half the distance against the Noles.  Makes no sense.

Ray, in a weird way, that actually made a little sense to me, but only because I've been down on the sidelines of high school games for the last decade or so.   Jambun can correct me if I'm wrong, but in high school, penalties are assessed in the order in which they occur.   So, if that same UF/FSU penalty had occurred in a high school game, the penalty against the offensive player occurred first, so it would be marked off first (i.e., back 15 yards from the 5 yard line to the 20 yard line).  Then, you mark off the penalty against the defensive player which, because the ball was then spotted at the 20 (however temporarily), it would be half the distance to the goal, which would take it to the 10-yard line instead of the 5. 

Had the penalties occurred in the opposite order, you'd go half the distance to goal (down to the 2.5 yard line), then 15 back to the 17.5 yard line. 

I don't know if college does it the same way.  There's also a difference between live ball fouls (like the one against UF) and dead ball fouls (like the one against FSU . . . I think).  That can also make a difference in what down it is when the next play is run. 

[Ray Icaza]

6 minutes ago, Perspective said:

Ray, in a weird way, that actually made a little sense to me, but only because I've been down on the sidelines of high school games for the last decade or so.   Jambun can correct me if I'm wrong, but in high school, penalties are assessed in the order in which they occur.   So, if that same UF/FSU penalty had occurred in a high school game, the penalty against the offensive player occurred first, so it would be marked off first (i.e., back 15 yards from the 5 yard line to the 20 yard line).  Then, you mark off the penalty against the defensive player which, because the ball was then spotted at the 20 (however temporarily), it would be half the distance to the goal, which would take it to the 10-yard line instead of the 5. 

Had the penalties occurred in the opposite order, you'd go half the distance to goal (down to the 2.5 yard line), then 15 back to the 17.5 yard line. 

I don't know if college does it the same way.  There's also a difference between live ball fouls (like the one against UF) and dead ball fouls (like the one against FSU . . . I think).  That can also make a difference in what down it is when the next play is run. 

I  understand what you are saying, but regardless when the official blew the whistle the play technically is dead when the helmet came off; that fact shouldn't change just because they blew it (pardon the pun).  Therefore, both should be dead ball fouls so I still believe they should have offset; not necessarily in high school as you point out.   Rules are different and not always applied consistently.  Example:   when a running back leaps over a defender trying to tackle him it is usually is praised as a great move in avoiding tackler and gaining extra yards.  When our Freshman running back (Taevion Swint) did that in a game this year, our crowd when wild but the official penalized him for the move??  I have since been told when it is technically legal and when not, but again logic defies the explanation.

[Perspective]

32 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:

I  understand what you are saying, but regardless when the official blew the whistle the play technically is dead when the helmet came off; that fact shouldn't change just because they blew it (pardon the pun).  Therefore, both should be dead ball fouls so I still believe they should have offset; not necessarily in high school as you point out.   Rules are different and not always applied consistently.  Example:   when a running back leaps over a defender trying to tackle him it is usually is praised as a great move in avoiding tackler and gaining extra yards.  When our Freshman running back (Taevion Swint) did that in a game this year, our crowd when wild but the official penalized him for the move??  I have since been told when it is technically legal and when not, but again logic defies the explanation.

Yep.  Hurdling is a 15-yard penalty, because the rule makers would rather have a kid run head first, smack-dab into a defender than jump over the defender and risk injury.  

[Ray Icaza]

12 minutes ago, Perspective said:

Yep.  Hurdling is a 15-yard penalty, because the rule makers would rather have a kid run head first, smack-dab into a defender than jump over the defender and risk injury.  

As it was explained to me, it is only a penalty if the defender has both feet planted on the ground when the hurdle occurs.  If the defender dives at the legs where his feet are off the ground, it is not.  Makes sense to me. 

[Perspective]

40 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:

As it was explained to me, it is only a penalty if the defender has both feet planted on the ground when the hurdle occurs.  If the defender dives at the legs where his feet are off the ground, it is not.  Makes sense to me. 

They had to come up some way to still allow a player to move past a defender who was simply lying on the ground.  

[Nulli Secundus]

4 hours ago, Perspective said:

Yep.  Hurdling is a 15-yard penalty, because the rule makers would rather have a kid run head first, smack-dab into a defender than jump over the defender and risk injury.  

 

4 hours ago, Ray Icaza said:

As it was explained to me, it is only a penalty if the defender has both feet planted on the ground when the hurdle occurs.  If the defender dives at the legs where his feet are off the ground, it is not.  Makes sense to me. 

 

3 hours ago, Perspective said:

They had to come up some way to still allow a player to move past a defender who was simply lying on the ground.  

They damn sure nailed RB Bowman with that same penalty in the 2018 final against STA.
Hurdling Penalty - L vs STA 2018

[Ray Icaza]

1 hour ago, Nulli Secundus said:

 

 

They damn sure nailed RB Bowman with that same penalty in the 2018 final against STA.
Hurdling Penalty - L vs STA 2018

Wow and according to how it was explained to me, that particular foul on Bowman should not have been called as the defender lunged for his legs and his feet were not planted. 

[Nulli Secundus]

19 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:

Wow and according to how it was explained to me, that particular foul on Bowman should not have been called as the defender lunged for his legs and his feet were not planted. 

If you watch further, the Lakeland coaches CLEARLY tried to argue that same point to no avail.  No instant replay in HS, LOL.

[Jesse]

1 hour ago, Nulli Secundus said:

If you watch further, the Lakeland coaches CLEARLY tried to argue that same point to no avail.  No instant replay in HS, LOL.

Before that game I had never seen someone break on st thomas like that and go off. Insane I think bowman ran 4.3 40

[Jambun82]

12 hours ago, Perspective said:

Jambun, I've got another rules question for you, but since this one involves college football (I don't know if the rule is the same in high school or not; please advise) and since it involves a policy question, I'll open it up to the floor.

If you happened to watch the UF/FSU game this Saturday, you may remember the play when Dameon Peirce, the Gator RB, had his helmet removed for him by a would-be FSU tackler at the FSU 5-yard line.  No face-mask penalty was called (which, in my opinion, was the right "no" call).  However, the Gator RB continued to run, ultimately diving into the end zone into and between two FSU defenders.  The  penalty was assessed against the Gator RB.  If I recall correctly, he got a 15-yard personal foul penalty for continuing to play after his helmet came off.  OK, I get it.  It's a safety issue.   They want the player to stop cold if his helmet comes off, however and wherever it may happen.   In the heat of the battle, they nevertheless want the player to defy his instincts and just turn it off and stop playing. 

Now, here's where it gets confusing:  a personal foul was called on one of the FSU defensive players (#10, I think), who was involved in the play, but I think the penalty was for his extracurricular activities after the play was over and even after the dead ball tackles were made, and not for the reason which is the subject of my question. 

So, here's my question:  if a player continues to play after his helmet comes off (and, presumably, the whistle blows the play dead), it's a 15 personal foul against that player.  But what about the players on the other team who react to the offensive player's continued play and hit him?  Isn't that (or shouldn't that) be a penalty as well?  Would that be a live ball foul or a dead ball foul?  Is there a distinction?   What if three defenders converge on a helmet-less offensive player that is still moving, should each one of them receive a dead ball personal foul penalty?  If not, why not? 

Thanks in advance. 

Perspective, in NFHS rules if any player continues to participate after his helmet come off, that is an illegal participation foul. If any other player makes contact on a player whose helmet has come off, that is a personal foul. Both penalties are live ball fouls and if there is a foul on each team, that would become a double foul, which by rule makes the penalties offset and the down replayed. The player whose helmet came off will have to leave the field for one play unless there was a foul by the other team which caused the helmet to come off the player's head. I don't know about NCAA rules, and I did not see the play in which you are referring. 

[Jambun82]

11 hours ago, badbird said:

When the ball carriers helmet comes off the play is dead,  The officials should have been blowing the whistle.  He took two more steps before the whistles blew and at this time he was about to enter the endzone.  I'm pretty sure the FSU player got a penalty for hitting him as he entered the endzone because the flag was thrown before the small altercation after.  

 

https://sports.yahoo.com/florida-rb-dameon-pierce-penalized-for-scoring-a-touchdown-without-his-helmet-201057897.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAANZ6GGCEGI81LyNRS4eL3bpffAPQNRfErqPrRLEl1KeKsCK-sR93pL3USdPOD3nFIZHDnnnLoLDlQuyEVR2NH5WMtHX1Ln99HzdWnyxlPGOHJ7HY5H-fyEd_ln2nuVoPcuA71Cf6fs0IubsafhpfiHd1ukpa4cs4TX822g2dZrxK

Badbird is correct. Once the helmet comes off of the runner, the play is dead in NFHS rules. I don't know about NCAA rules. 

[Jambun82]

10 hours ago, Ray Icaza said:

Then if logic matters, they should have been offsetting but they weren't.  They marched off the full 15 against the Gators and only half the distance against the Noles.  Makes no sense.

It makes sense if the enforcement of the penalty yardage was more than half the distance to the offended team's goal line. 

[Jambun82]

7 hours ago, Ray Icaza said:

As it was explained to me, it is only a penalty if the defender has both feet planted on the ground when the hurdle occurs.  If the defender dives at the legs where his feet are off the ground, it is not.  Makes sense to me. 

No, the defender would only have to have one foot contacting the ground if the runner hurdled over that defender for that to be a foul. 

[Jambun82]

3 hours ago, Nulli Secundus said:

 

 

They damn sure nailed RB Bowman with that same penalty in the 2018 final against STA.
Hurdling Penalty - L vs STA 2018

Nulli Secundus, that is a very difficult call to make from viewing that video. Coach Castle was certainly justified in arguing and requesting an explanation for that penalty. 

[Jambun82]

7 hours ago, Perspective said:

Yep.  Hurdling is a 15-yard penalty, because the rule makers would rather have a kid run head first, smack-dab into a defender than jump over the defender and risk injury.  

Perspective, the NFHS is currently conducting it's annual rules-writing process. Maybe you should contact the committee with your thoughts or concerns on this matter. However, what you have just described is a spearing foul, so the NFHS would rather not have any of those actions occur by a runner.  

[Jambun82]

8 hours ago, Ray Icaza said:

I  understand what you are saying, but regardless when the official blew the whistle the play technically is dead when the helmet came off; that fact shouldn't change just because they blew it (pardon the pun).  Therefore, both should be dead ball fouls so I still believe they should have offset; not necessarily in high school as you point out.   Rules are different and not always applied consistently.  Example:   when a running back leaps over a defender trying to tackle him it is usually is praised as a great move in avoiding tackler and gaining extra yards.  When our Freshman running back (Taevion Swint) did that in a game this year, our crowd when wild but the official penalized him for the move??  I have since been told when it is technically legal and when not, but again logic defies the explanation.

Dead ball fouls can not be offset in NFHS rules. Those fouls are to be enforced in order of occurrence. 

[181pl]

How about the end of the game? I thought there should be one untimed down remaining. Travis was down prior to the ball being thrown. The pick was then returned several yards, making it impossible for FSU to line up and snap the ball. 

Don't know the actual rule on that, but it seems if the the actions of the other team, even if unintentional, make it impossible for a team to line up in a hurry and snap the ball, that there should be one untimed down.

Again, this is coming from a biased FSU fan, but it would be good to know the rule.

[Perspective]

9 hours ago, Jambun82 said:

Badbird is correct. Once the helmet comes off of the runner, the play is dead in NFHS rules. I don't know about NCAA rules. 

Jambun, now I'm confused.  Is the play automatically dead or only dead after the official sees it and blows the whistle?  From what I read above, live ball fouls by both teams would offset, but dead ball fouls are assessed in the order in which they occurred.   If the play is automatically dead, continuation by the runner and contact by the defender would both be dead ball fouls, right?  

[Perspective]

8 hours ago, Jambun82 said:

Perspective, the NFHS is currently conducting it's annual rules-writing process. Maybe you should contact the committee with your thoughts or concerns on this matter. However, what you have just described is a spearing foul, so the NFHS would rather not have any of those actions occur by a runner.  

Wait, so if a running back gets a handoff from the QB and goes off right tackle and lowers his head into the oncoming defender's chest, that's spearing?   If so, it happens about 20-30 times a game. 

[Ray Icaza]

9 hours ago, Jambun82 said:

No, the defender would only have to have one foot contacting the ground if the runner hurdled over that defender for that to be a foul. 

Thanks, thought that was what I said; the defenders "FEET" not foot.

[Ray Icaza]

2 hours ago, 181pl said:

How about the end of the game? I thought there should be one untimed down remaining. Travis was down prior to the ball being thrown. The pick was then returned several yards, making it impossible for FSU to line up and snap the ball. 

Don't know the actual rule on that, but it seems if the the actions of the other team, even if unintentional, make it impossible for a team to line up in a hurry and snap the ball, that there should be one untimed down.

Again, this is coming from a biased FSU fan, but it would be good to know the rule.

Because he was down with no remaining timeouts, so no way to stop the clock with less than 10 seconds.  No way they would have been able to lineup and run another play.  Game over.

[Jambun82]

11 hours ago, Perspective said:

Jambun, now I'm confused.  Is the play automatically dead or only dead after the official sees it and blows the whistle?  From what I read above, live ball fouls by both teams would offset, but dead ball fouls are assessed in the order in which they occurred.   If the play is automatically dead, continuation by the runner and contact by the defender would both be dead ball fouls, right?  

If the runner's helmet comes off, the play becomes dead at that moment. If the helmet of any other player comes off, the play continues. If a opposing player makes contact with a runner whose helmet has come off, that will be a dead ball foul.  The whistle very rarely if ever ends a play, when coaches tell their players to "play to the whistle" that is technically incorrect.