Rules question

[Jambun82]

11 hours ago, Perspective said:

Wait, so if a running back gets a handoff from the QB and goes off right tackle and lowers his head into the oncoming defender's chest, that's spearing?   If so, it happens about 20-30 times a game. 

The runner would use the crown of his helmet into the defender to receive a spearing penalty. That foul can be very difficult to determine in that circumstance. 

[Jambun82]

11 hours ago, Ray Icaza said:

Thanks, thought that was what I said; the defenders "FEET" not foot.

The defender would have no part of his body contacting the ground except one or both feet if the runner were to hurdle the defender. 

[Jambun82]

13 hours ago, 181pl said:

How about the end of the game? I thought there should be one untimed down remaining. Travis was down prior to the ball being thrown. The pick was then returned several yards, making it impossible for FSU to line up and snap the ball. 

Don't know the actual rule on that, but it seems if the the actions of the other team, even if unintentional, make it impossible for a team to line up in a hurry and snap the ball, that there should be one untimed down.

Again, this is coming from a biased FSU fan, but it would be good to know the rule.

I don't know about NCAA rules. 

[Perspective]

12 hours ago, Jambun82 said:

If the runner's helmet comes off, the play becomes dead at that moment. If the helmet of any other player comes off, the play continues. If a opposing player makes contact with a runner whose helmet has come off, that will be a dead ball foul.  The whistle very rarely if ever ends a play, when coaches tell their players to "play to the whistle" that is technically incorrect. 

Interesting.   Thanks for the response.   Now, your answer begs the question:  if the blowing of the whistle doesn't signal the end of a play, what does?   In other words, when does a play end for purposes of determining a live ball foul and a dead ball foul? 

[badbird]

1 hour ago, Perspective said:

Interesting.   Thanks for the response.   Now, your answer begs the question:  if the blowing of the whistle doesn't signal the end of a play, what does?   In other words, when does a play end for purposes of determining a live ball foul and a dead ball foul? 

play is over when the ball is dead (player steps out of bounds, player is tackled, ball is incomplete, a player with the ball helmet comes off etc)

Usually the whistle is blown soon after the play ends.  If I hit a player after one of the above things occurs it is a dead ball foul even if the whistle hasn't blown.  

[Cat_Scratch]

On 11/30/2021 at 11:32 PM, Jambun82 said:

Perspective, in NFHS rules if any player continues to participate after his helmet come off, that is an illegal participation foul. If any other player makes contact on a player whose helmet has come off, that is a personal foul. Both penalties are live ball fouls and if there is a foul on each team, that would become a double foul, which by rule makes the penalties offset and the down replayed. The player whose helmet came off will have to leave the field for one play unless there was a foul by the other team which caused the helmet to come off the player's head. I don't know about NCAA rules, and I did not see the play in which you are referring. 

I believe the foul on FSU was for a late hit after the whistle while a player was on the ground not for hitting the running back after he lost his helmet...

[Perspective]

21 minutes ago, Cat_Scratch said:

I believe the foul on FSU was for a late hit after the whistle while a player was on the ground not for hitting the running back after he lost his helmet...

Cat_Scratch, that's what I thought as well.   If that's the case, shouldn't there also have been a penalty on the one or two FSU defenders who tackled the helmet-less UF RB?

[Cat_Scratch]

3 hours ago, Perspective said:

Cat_Scratch, that's what I thought as well.   If that's the case, shouldn't there also have been a penalty on the one or two FSU defenders who tackled the helmet-less UF RB?

I'm thinking the officials said the FSU players pulled back before hitting the helmet less RB. Or it was incidental contact. 

[Perspective]

1 hour ago, Cat_Scratch said:

I'm thinking the officials said the FSU players pulled back before hitting the helmet less RB. Or it was incidental contact. 

  Just curious, did you see the play?   There was no pulling back by the FSU defenders and nothing about the contact was incidental. 

Just to be clear, I recognize that the rules require a helmet-less player to immediately stop playing, which the UF RB did not do, so the penalty was deserved.   But I don't fault the UF RB for letting his football instincts take over and continuing to run the ball (especially when he was 5 yards away from the end zone).  Similarly, I don't fault the FSU players for letting their football instincts take over and trying to tackle the UF RB as he approached the end zone.   But, if this is all about player safety, and the offensive player gets penalized when he continues to play, then the defensive players who continue to play and make contact with the guy without the helmet should be penalized as well.   That's just my opinion. 

[Jambun82]

11 hours ago, Perspective said:

Interesting.   Thanks for the response.   Now, your answer begs the question:  if the blowing of the whistle doesn't signal the end of a play, what does?   In other words, when does a play end for purposes of determining a live ball foul and a dead ball foul? 

The action and result of the play itself ends the play. A runner being tackled or any part of the runner's body other than hand or foot contacting the ground, stepping out of the field-of-play, a passed ball hitting the ground, a loose ball touching out-of-bounds etc. Any action by a player after these occurrences would be considered a dead-ball foul for penalty enforcement purposes. 

[Jambun82]

10 hours ago, badbird said:

play is over when the ball is dead (player steps out of bounds, player is tackled, ball is incomplete, a player with the ball helmet comes off etc)

Usually the whistle is blown soon after the play ends.  If I hit a player after one of the above things occurs it is a dead ball foul even if the whistle hasn't blown.  

This sums up the question perfectly. Badbird, do you think that you would look good in black and white stripes? 

[Jambun82]

9 hours ago, Cat_Scratch said:

I believe the foul on FSU was for a late hit after the whistle while a player was on the ground not for hitting the running back after he lost his helmet...

All right, but I don't know NCAA rules very well. 

[Cat_Scratch]

4 hours ago, Perspective said:

  Just curious, did you see the play?   There was no pulling back by the FSU defenders and nothing about the contact was incidental. 

Just to be clear, I recognize that the rules require a helmet-less player to immediately stop playing, which the UF RB did not do, so the penalty was deserved.   But I don't fault the UF RB for letting his football instincts take over and continuing to run the ball (especially when he was 5 yards away from the end zone).  Similarly, I don't fault the FSU players for letting their football instincts take over and trying to tackle the UF RB as he approached the end zone.   But, if this is all about player safety, and the offensive player gets penalized when he continues to play, then the defensive players who continue to play and make contact with the guy without the helmet should be penalized as well.   That's just my opinion. 

I'll have to re-watch it. 

[181pl]

reading this I think I’m right. Could have been an untimed down at end…

 

https://www.dailyprincetonian.com/article/2021/11/princeton-harvard-football-game-bonfire-ivy-league

[181pl]

1 minute ago, 181pl said:

reading this I think I’m right. Could have been an untimed down at end…

 

https://www.dailyprincetonian.com/article/2021/11/princeton-harvard-football-game-bonfire-ivy-league

NCAA Rule 12-3-7 expressly states that “the replay official may correct obvious errors that may have a significant impact on the outcome of the game, including those involving the game clock, whether or not a play is reviewable.”

The Florida player appeared to intercept the ball and ran it back the other way.  But the play was dead when Travis’s knee was down. This prevented FSU from having any shot of lining up to run one more play.

The referees did review the play. They should’ve come up with the correct resolution, which was one untimed down.

[Perspective]

1 hour ago, 181pl said:

NCAA Rule 12-3-7 expressly states that “the replay official may correct obvious errors that may have a significant impact on the outcome of the game, including those involving the game clock, whether or not a play is reviewable.”

The Florida player appeared to intercept the ball and ran it back the other way.  But the play was dead when Travis’s knee was down. This prevented FSU from having any shot of lining up to run one more play.

The referees did review the play. They should’ve come up with the correct resolution, which was one untimed down.

So, what you're saying JD is that Travis should have known he was down (it was his knee after all) and he should not have thrown the ball downfield where it could be caught by a defensive back who, having no clue whether the QB's knee was down or not, would have the audacity to catch the pass and run around with the ball as if he had just intercepted a live ball, thus wasting the precious remaining seconds.  That way, FSU could have run one more play.   Seems kind of harsh to blame all of that on the FSU QB.  

[Perspective]

10 hours ago, Cat_Scratch said:

I'll have to re-watch it. 

Badbird posted this link at the beginning of this thread:

https://sports.yahoo.com/florida-rb-dameon-pierce-penalized-for-scoring-a-touchdown-without-his-helmet-201057897.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAANZ6GGCEGI81LyNRS4eL3bpffAPQNRfErqPrRLEl1KeKsCK-sR93pL3USdPOD3nFIZHDnnnLoLDlQuyEVR2NH5WMtHX1Ln99HzdWnyxlPGOHJ7HY5H-fyEd_ln2nuVoPcuA71Cf6fs0IubsafhpfiHd1ukpa4cs4TX822g2dZrxK

[Ray Icaza]

2 hours ago, Perspective said:

So, what you're saying JD is that Travis should have known he was down (it was his knee after all) and he should not have thrown the ball downfield where it could be caught by a defensive back who, having no clue whether the QB's knee was down or not, would have the audacity to catch the pass and run around with the ball as if he had just intercepted a live ball, thus wasting the precious remaining seconds.  That way, FSU could have run one more play.   Seems kind of harsh to blame all of that on the FSU QB.  

And he also argues "His Knee Was Down so the Play is Dead" as if the knee being down would have stopped the clock from continuing to run regardless what happened afterwards;  it would not and should not have stopped the clock.  Refs made the correct call.

[badbird]

15 hours ago, Jambun82 said:

This sums up the question perfectly. Badbird, do you think that you would look good in black and white stripes? 

I've actually considered it but I took another second job that doesn't let me officiate football games.  Conflict of interest.  

 

As much crap as I give you I actually have a lot of respect and appreciation for the guys that do it.  I have pretty good relationships with the ones in the area.  

[181pl]

9 hours ago, Perspective said:

So, what you're saying JD is that Travis should have known he was down (it was his knee after all) and he should not have thrown the ball downfield where it could be caught by a defensive back who, having no clue whether the QB's knee was down or not, would have the audacity to catch the pass and run around with the ball as if he had just intercepted a live ball, thus wasting the precious remaining seconds.  That way, FSU could have run one more play.   Seems kind of harsh to blame all of that on the FSU QB.  

 

No I’m saying that the referee had the judgment call to give them an untimed down

[Cat_Scratch]

13 hours ago, Perspective said:

Badbird posted this link at the beginning of this thread:

https://sports.yahoo.com/florida-rb-dameon-pierce-penalized-for-scoring-a-touchdown-without-his-helmet-201057897.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAANZ6GGCEGI81LyNRS4eL3bpffAPQNRfErqPrRLEl1KeKsCK-sR93pL3USdPOD3nFIZHDnnnLoLDlQuyEVR2NH5WMtHX1Ln99HzdWnyxlPGOHJ7HY5H-fyEd_ln2nuVoPcuA71Cf6fs0IubsafhpfiHd1ukpa4cs4TX822g2dZrxK

Good call. 

[Jambun82]

11 hours ago, badbird said:

I've actually considered it but I took another second job that doesn't let me officiate football games.  Conflict of interest.  

 

As much crap as I give you I actually have a lot of respect and appreciation for the guys that do it.  I have pretty good relationships with the ones in the area.  

Yes, thank you. I always knew that deep down, you thought very highly of me, and I am willing to provide you with an autograph as well!  

[181pl]

19 hours ago, Ray Icaza said:

And he also argues "His Knee Was Down so the Play is Dead" as if the knee being down would have stopped the clock from continuing to run regardless what happened afterwards;  it would not and should not have stopped the clock.  Refs made the correct call.

No the clock would keep running. You don’t think teams have lined up with nine seconds left and spiked the ball? Of course they have. But when the other team is running the ball back 25 yards the other way you can’t lineup.

[Ray Icaza]

4 hours ago, 181pl said:

No the clock would keep running. You don’t think teams have lined up with nine seconds left and spiked the ball? Of course they have. But when the other team is running the ball back 25 yards the other way you can’t lineup.

As Perspective pointed out, Who's fault is that??

[badbird]

On 12/3/2021 at 11:21 PM, Jambun82 said:

Yes, thank you. I always knew that deep down, you thought very highly of me, and I am willing to provide you with an autograph as well!  

HAHA I would still curse you out