Rationale for support of the offsides rule

[skyway]

Is there some rationale/argument behind keeping the offsides rule (automatic penalty if in neutral zone even with no contact and the ball not snapped) as it is and has been for decades? It's always seemed incredibly stupid to me. Almost as stupid as the rule where if a ball is fumbled out of the endzone, the *defense* automatically gets possession even if they never laid a fingernail on the ball. Why is offsides still such a cheap opportunity for offenses?

[Jambun82]

12 hours ago, skyway said:

Is there some rationale/argument behind keeping the offsides rule (automatic penalty if in neutral zone even with no contact and the ball not snapped) as it is and has been for decades? It's always seemed incredibly stupid to me. Almost as stupid as the rule where if a ball is fumbled out of the endzone, the *defense* automatically gets possession even if they never laid a fingernail on the ball. Why is offsides still such a cheap opportunity for offenses?

The rule is in effect most likely with player safety in consideration.  How do you propose to change the current touchback rule? 

[skyway]

12 hours ago, Jambun82 said:

The rule is in effect most likely with player safety in consideration.  How do you propose to change the current touchback rule? 

I was aware that kickoffs are blown dead after the ball is kicked across the goal line in consideration of player safety. However, I never said anything about kickoffs!

I'm talking about regular plays from scrimmage. If a player flinches and places a fingernail into the neutral zone before the ball is even snapped, it's an automatic penalty. That doesn't have anything to do with player safety. Every game you'll see this happen a few times, often at crucial points. I propose that offsides be called the same way it is in college and the pros. To be offsides, either the defender has to make contact with the offense before the ball is snapped, or be offsides when the ball is snapped.

[Ray Icaza]

15 minutes ago, skyway said:

I was aware that kickoffs are blown dead after the ball is kicked across the goal line in consideration of player safety. However, I never said anything about kickoffs!

I'm talking about regular plays from scrimmage. If a player flinches and places a fingernail into the neutral zone before the ball is even snapped, it's an automatic penalty. That doesn't have anything to do with player safety. Every game you'll see this happen a few times, often at crucial points. I propose that offsides be called the same way it is in college and the pros. To be offsides, either the defender has to make contact with the offense before the ball is snapped, or be offsides when the ball is snapped.

Ok Jambun, you are always asking for feedback as if you can pass along common sense changes to rules like this one that Skyway points out.  It is a ridiculous rule and should be changed, so I will accept your autograph offer if you can get this done.  I Wait!

[skyway]

My sense is that there is not even a rationale for having the rule as is. It's just the way it's been forever and nobody ever gets around to changing it!

[Jambun82]

9 hours ago, Ray Icaza said:

Ok Jambun, you are always asking for feedback as if you can pass along common sense changes to rules like this one that Skyway points out.  It is a ridiculous rule and should be changed, so I will accept your autograph offer if you can get this done.  I Wait!

Anybody can propose rules changes to the NFHS rules committee. Also, you can be honest with me, you really want my autograph and you are trying to find an excuse to get it. You can admit how much that you enjoy talking with me, and how you always learn something. I won't mind at all! 

[Jambun82]

6 hours ago, skyway said:

My sense is that there is not even a rationale for having the rule as is. It's just the way it's been forever and nobody ever gets around to changing it!

You might be correct there. 

[Jambun82]

9 hours ago, skyway said:

I was aware that kickoffs are blown dead after the ball is kicked across the goal line in consideration of player safety. However, I never said anything about kickoffs!

I'm talking about regular plays from scrimmage. If a player flinches and places a fingernail into the neutral zone before the ball is even snapped, it's an automatic penalty. That doesn't have anything to do with player safety. Every game you'll see this happen a few times, often at crucial points. I propose that offsides be called the same way it is in college and the pros. To be offsides, either the defender has to make contact with the offense before the ball is snapped, or be offsides when the ball is snapped.

No, I meant the touchback when the defensive team receives possession of the ball when a loose ball in possession of the offense bounces or rolls out of the back of the defense's end zone. How do you propose changing that if you don't like that rule? 

[Ray Icaza]

2 hours ago, Jambun82 said:

Anybody can propose rules changes to the NFHS rules committee. Also, you can be honest with me, you really want my autograph and you are trying to find an excuse to get it. You can admit how much that you enjoy talking with me, and how you always learn something. I won't mind at all! 

I WAIT!!

[Jambun82]

22 hours ago, Ray Icaza said:

I WAIT!!

Don't hold your breath then. 

[Ray Icaza]

33 minutes ago, Jambun82 said:

Don't hold your breath then. 

Predictable.

[WhoopWhoop!!]

OP, I understand where you’re coming from, however, football is a game of discipline. If it’s not a rule, then all of sudden OL coaches are coaching move or flinch when the DL comes into the neutral zone, or have your center snap it out of cadence to catch them in the neutral zone. If somehow an offsides call is called,  then we are counting on referees to make a judgement call. And I think we can all agree that the less times FHSAA officials are asked to make a judgement call, the better. 

[Ray Icaza]

17 minutes ago, WhoopWhoop!! said:

OP, I understand where you’re coming from, however, football is a game of discipline. If it’s not a rule, then all of sudden OL coaches are coaching move or flinch when the DL comes into the neutral zone, or have your center snap it out of cadence to catch them in the neutral zone. If somehow an offsides call is called,  then we are counting on referees to make a judgement call. And I think we can all agree that the less times FHSAA officials are asked to make a judgement call, the better. 

So if I understand your argument of football being a game of discipline, how does that square with not applying that argument to college and Pro even?  The judgement on the part of the referee doesn't go away with this rule as slight movement on the offensive line can cause the DL to come across the scrimmage line so they still have to make that judgement.  Or make the judgement the the DL actually broke the plane, before resetting.  What a perfect world if the refs didn't have to make any judgements during the game.  Keep dreaming.

[skyway]

On 12/12/2021 at 6:50 PM, Jambun82 said:

No, I meant the touchback when the defensive team receives possession of the ball when a loose ball in possession of the offense bounces or rolls out of the back of the defense's end zone. How do you propose changing that if you don't like that rule? 

That rule should be changed to be what it is...any other time a ball is fumbled out of bounds. If the ball is fumbled, it can not be advanced, but it also can not be claimed by the defense given they never had possession of the ball in the first place. So, if a player fumbles at the 2, and the ball rolls out of bounds- be it the sideline or out of the end zone, the ball goes back to the fumbling team at the spot of the fumble, the 2 yard line. Exception being failed 4th downs obviously.

[skyway]

11 hours ago, WhoopWhoop!! said:

OP, I understand where you’re coming from, however, football is a game of discipline. If it’s not a rule, then all of sudden OL coaches are coaching move or flinch when the DL comes into the neutral zone, or have your center snap it out of cadence to catch them in the neutral zone. If somehow an offsides call is called,  then we are counting on referees to make a judgement call. And I think we can all agree that the less times FHSAA officials are asked to make a judgement call, the better. 

Let's keep the context of the rule as it is in college and the pros in mind here. What you describe is the reality at every other level of football. And, as it is, the official has a bit of a judgment call anyway in regards to whether the fingernail is actually in the neutral zone or not. 

For a long time, coaches have coached QBs to modify their cadence and snap counts with the goal of manipulating a defender into flinching even a tiny bit for a cheap five yards. The overwhelming majority of offsides penalties at the high school level-even the ones that help the team I'm rooting for- leave you shaking your head and saying 'that's sooo cheap!'

[Mike E]

Lots of opinions here...  Quickly on the kickoff touchback. 2 things - Decreasing the risk factors, some. And saving teams from hot-shot undisciplined "superstars". 

Offsides on D - Everything on this subject is based purely on opinion. My take? Are defensive line players less capable of discipline today than they were last year? 10 years ago? 50 Years ago?

On the rule being different than in college and pro - There are rules different between college and pro, why not between HS and pro? I shake my head sometimes at the weird HS rules, but there are all there for a reason. You want to change 1 HS football rule? Defensive pass interference on an offensive touchdown should not be enforced on the ensuing kick off. That is bizarre. Personal fouls, unsportsmanlike, yes. 

[HornetFan]

One of the best weapons a QB has to slow down an aggressive pass rush, especially a potential blitz, is to use an occasional "hard count" to catch the defense jumping offsides. How is this any worse than calling a false start on an offensive lineman for a slight flinch prior to the ball being snapped or a DB grabbing a little piece of a receiver's jersey to throw off his route? The players know the rules; they try to gain an edge. If they get away with the offside, flinch, or grab, They feel they gained an advantage. If they get caught, they should accept the penalty without complaint. 

[skyway]

2 hours ago, HornetFan said:

One of the best weapons a QB has to slow down an aggressive pass rush, especially a potential blitz, is to use an occasional "hard count" to catch the defense jumping offsides. How is this any worse than calling a false start on an offensive lineman for a slight flinch prior to the ball being snapped or a DB grabbing a little piece of a receiver's jersey to throw off his route? The players know the rules; they try to gain an edge. If they get away with the offside, flinch, or grab, They feel they gained an advantage. If they get caught, they should accept the penalty without complaint. 

If an offensive player flinches pre-snap, it signals that the play is beginning, which is a hugely unfair advantage for the offense. Offsides can and should be a penalty, which means it can and should be a weapon for the offense. It just should be limited to when either the defender makes contact, or is offsides when the ball is snapped. If a defender flinches but gets back in time, that shouldn't be a penalty at any time. Of course the offense would reserve the right to quick snap the ball when they are offsides and then collect their penalty yardage.

[Jambun82]

22 hours ago, Ray Icaza said:

Predictable.

What is predictable? 

[Jambun82]

10 hours ago, skyway said:

That rule should be changed to be what it is...any other time a ball is fumbled out of bounds. If the ball is fumbled, it can not be advanced, but it also can not be claimed by the defense given they never had possession of the ball in the first place. So, if a player fumbles at the 2, and the ball rolls out of bounds- be it the sideline or out of the end zone, the ball goes back to the fumbling team at the spot of the fumble, the 2 yard line. Exception being failed 4th downs obviously.

That sounds reasonable to me. 

[Jambun82]

22 hours ago, WhoopWhoop!! said:

OP, I understand where you’re coming from, however, football is a game of discipline. If it’s not a rule, then all of sudden OL coaches are coaching move or flinch when the DL comes into the neutral zone, or have your center snap it out of cadence to catch them in the neutral zone. If somehow an offsides call is called,  then we are counting on referees to make a judgement call. And I think we can all agree that the less times FHSAA officials are asked to make a judgement call, the better. 

WhoopWhoop!!, since you are from Volusia County, could you agree that there seems to be at least one good-looking ladies man among the officials in that County? 

[Jambun82]

9 hours ago, Mike E said:

Lots of opinions here...  Quickly on the kickoff touchback. 2 things - Decreasing the risk factors, some. And saving teams from hot-shot undisciplined "superstars". 

Offsides on D - Everything on this subject is based purely on opinion. My take? Are defensive line players less capable of discipline today than they were last year? 10 years ago? 50 Years ago?

On the rule being different than in college and pro - There are rules different between college and pro, why not between HS and pro? I shake my head sometimes at the weird HS rules, but there are all there for a reason. You want to change 1 HS football rule? Defensive pass interference on an offensive touchdown should not be enforced on the ensuing kick off. That is bizarre. Personal fouls, unsportsmanlike, yes. 

What other NFHS rules do you have a problem with? 

[Jambun82]

4 hours ago, HornetFan said:

One of the best weapons a QB has to slow down an aggressive pass rush, especially a potential blitz, is to use an occasional "hard count" to catch the defense jumping offsides. How is this any worse than calling a false start on an offensive lineman for a slight flinch prior to the ball being snapped or a DB grabbing a little piece of a receiver's jersey to throw off his route? The players know the rules; they try to gain an edge. If they get away with the offside, flinch, or grab, They feel they gained an advantage. If they get caught, they should accept the penalty without complaint. 

I believe that all coaches and players should accept any officials decision without complaint. 

[HornetFan]

13 hours ago, Jambun82 said:

I believe that all coaches and players should accept any officials decision without complaint. 

 In a perfect world, that would be the case. 

[Cat_Scratch]

22 minutes ago, HornetFan said:

 In a perfect world, that would be the case. 

I'm sure that is why replay is used to review iffy calls. No one is prefect.