Football playoff changes on the discussion docket for football advisory committee

[Title Town]

North Carolina also has 2 associations and a private school division .

[09mrslick]

Donut Badger Who's your school you rep.

Hwy17 Who you'r school you rep.

[gatorman-uf]

I don't like it. I think the average fan understands district standings more than they will ever understand power points. Power Points mean you have to root for your opponents to do well and as a fan I don't necessarily want to do that. Also Power Points take control out of the team's hands and put it into the type of opponent you faced. 

For example, a coach schedules 5 middle of the road teams that his team will be competitive in, 2 "tough" games, and 3 easy games. The team goes 8-2, but the 5 middle of the road team turn out to be pushovers this year, or schedule really hard and their record ends up be 2-8. I like our system of you win and you are in.

I don't think this system will get what they are hoping for. I would rather see teams with success have population added to them (1A-3A exempted) and forced to play up once they have success. 

I ran a simulation of Class 7A, Region 1 with the idea that all the games counted (just made it easier to figure things out). 
Here are the Top 8 Teams in order.
1. Lincoln (4-6)
2. Columbia (9-1)
3. Bartram Trail (7-3)
4. Buchholz (9-1)
5. Edgewater (7-3)
6. Ocoee (6-4)
7. Atlantic Coast (6-4)
8. Robert E. Lee (7-3)

Some weird things happen 6 of the 8 listed were already the playoff teams (Ocoee and ACHS) being new additions while Chiles and Hagerty dropped. Hagerty beat both Edgewater and Ocoee and still didn't make it. 

Oakleaf, an 8-2 team (a team the Laz Index has in the Top 8 of the region) finishes 13.

A winless Creedside team, finishes 1 point of 8th place, tied for 9th. If this really is the best system, we can come up with we are in trouble.

Additionally the fact that Lincoln, a 4-6 team would be the #1 seed is mind blowing. Columbia beat them in the regular season and post-season but this new system would reward Lincoln with the #1 seed. 

Make districts bigger by eliminating a classification.

[Hwy17]

Donut Badger Who's your school you rep.

Hwy17 Who you'r school you rep.

 

I'm from Hardee county.

[DisabledAccount]

HOW? how would lincoln get number 1 seed? i dont see, someone explain that to me, and yes, we beat them in the reguar season in their house, then in the playoffs went back to lincoln and got a running clock on them

[gatorman-uf]

Lincoln's Schedule:

1. Camden County (9 Wins), Bigger School Loss (2 points) 11 points
2. Columbia (9 Wins), Same Size or Smaller School Loss (1 points) 10 Points

3. Manatee (8 Wins), Bigger School Loss (2 points) 10 points

4. BYE
5. Rickards (7 wins) Same Size or Smaller School Loss (1 points) 8 Points

6. Chiles (6 wins) Same Size or Smaller School Loss (1 points) 7 Points

7. Niceville (8 wins) Same Size or Smaller School Loss (1 points) 9 Points
8. Leon (5 wins) Same Size School or Small School Win (4 points) 9 points

9. TCA (10 wins) Same Size or Smaller School Loss (1 points) 11 Points

10. University (8 wins) Bigger School Win (5 points) 13 points

11. Godby (3 wins) Same Size School or Small School Win (4 points) 7 points

 

Columbia's Schedule
1. Gainesville (6 wins), Same Size School or Small School Win (4 points) 10 points

2. Lincoln (4 wins), Same Size School or Small School Win (4 points) 8 points

3. Buchholz (9 wins), Same Size School or Small School Win (4 points) 13 points

4. Lee (7 wins), Same Size School or Small School Win (4 points) 11 points

5. Escambia (6 wins) Same Size or Smaller School Loss (1 points) 7 Points

6. BYE

7. Bolles (8 wins) Same Size School or Small School Win (4 points) 12 points

8. ACHS (6 wins) Same Size School or Small School Win (4 points) 10 points

9. Fletcher (5 wins) Same Size School or Small School Win (4 points) 9 points  

10. First Coast (2 wins) Same Size School or Small School Win (4 points) 6 points

11. Suwannee (7 wins) Same Size School or Small School Win (4 points) 11 points

 

Lincoln: 98 points
Columbia: 97 Points

The saddest part is that in losing to Columbia, Lincoln gained 10 points, Columbia only gained 8 points.
So in winning, Columbia didn't really gain anything. 

[DisabledAccount]

honestly that system makes 0 sense, what should happen is by losing u only get the 1 point or the 4 for losing to high class or whatever it was, not the extra win total of the opponent added in

[STARaiders2014]

Three team districts are just wrong. Defeats why runner-ups were allowed to be in the playoffs in the first place. Should be 4 team minimum in a district; 5 or would be better. Never thought teams with losing records deserve to be in the playoffs; even my own when we got in.

Or in a three team district only the district champion should be allowed in the playoffs.

[DisabledAccount]

Or in a three team district only the district champion should be allowed in the playoffs.

they could use those 3 team districts as a oppurtunity to open up wild card spots 

[Joshua Wilson]

Lincoln's Schedule:

1. Camden County (9 Wins), Bigger School Loss (2 points) 11 points

2. Columbia (9 Wins), Same Size or Smaller School Loss (1 points) 10 Points

3. Manatee (8 Wins), Bigger School Loss (2 points) 10 points

4. BYE

5. Rickards (7 wins) Same Size or Smaller School Loss (1 points) 8 Points

6. Chiles (6 wins) Same Size or Smaller School Loss (1 points) 7 Points

7. Niceville (8 wins) Same Size or Smaller School Loss (1 points) 9 Points

8. Leon (5 wins) Same Size School or Small School Win (4 points) 9 points

9. TCA (10 wins) Same Size or Smaller School Loss (1 points) 11 Points

10. University (8 wins) Bigger School Win (5 points) 13 points

11. Godby (3 wins) Same Size School or Small School Win (4 points) 7 points

 

Columbia's Schedule

1. Gainesville (6 wins), Same Size School or Small School Win (4 points) 10 points

2. Lincoln (4 wins), Same Size School or Small School Win (4 points) 8 points

3. Buchholz (9 wins), Same Size School or Small School Win (4 points) 13 points

4. Lee (7 wins), Same Size School or Small School Win (4 points) 11 points

5. Escambia (6 wins) Same Size or Smaller School Loss (1 points) 7 Points

6. BYE

7. Bolles (8 wins) Same Size School or Small School Win (4 points) 12 points

8. ACHS (6 wins) Same Size School or Small School Win (4 points) 10 points

9. Fletcher (5 wins) Same Size School or Small School Win (4 points) 9 points  

10. First Coast (2 wins) Same Size School or Small School Win (4 points) 6 points

11. Suwannee (7 wins) Same Size School or Small School Win (4 points) 11 points

 

Lincoln: 98 points

Columbia: 97 Points

 

The saddest part is that in losing to Columbia, Lincoln gained 10 points, Columbia only gained 8 points.

So in winning, Columbia didn't really gain anything. 

 

However, you counted all 10 games...only the last 8 games would be used to determine seeding.

 

In that case:

Columbia: 78 points

Lincoln: 74 points

 

But the points would only be used to determine the wildcard seeding I believe. No matter what Columbia would still be in and likely as a high seed no matter how you look at it. 

[Joshua Wilson]

There are likely a ton of other ways that things can be improved. I don't expect any of the smaller schools that have gone to an independent conference to ever really come back into to the fold for football. Football is a different animal than it is with most other team sports.

[STARaiders2014]

North Carolina also has 2 associations and a private school division .

This is not totally true. 

Not sure what you mean by 2 associations, as they have one. The NCHSAA the NCISAA is the private school body. 

NC does have private and public associations, but the private school one controls itself. One can go there and re-class, they give out scholarships etc.

The Parochial(fancy word for Catholic) non-boarding schools in NC play with the public schools. One in particular the one I'm actually heavily affliated with up here in NC has been in the public school league for over 40 years with no problems. 

Here is the way FLA needs to do it ans this is the way NC does it:

First you take the top 32, 16 or whatever teams and you seed them based on their record. This bullcrap region switching for regional finals is stupid. If a team has a better record they should get homefield advantage.

You seed conference/district champions in the top seeds then followed by 2nd place finishers, and 3rd place finishers. Sometimes fourth place finishers make it, but that isn't that common honestly. 

Now in the case of a three team district only the champion goes to the playoffs, and four team districts only first place, and second place. 

[STARaiders2014]

The Catholic schools in the NCHSAA are bound by some strict transfer rules. If someone were to transfer in from a public school they would not be eligible to play sports for a full 365 days unless they moved in from out of state. 

[gatorman-uf]

Joshua,

Fine...

Only the last 8 games, but I implore you to look at the number 7 seed. That would be Creekside, a team that had ZERO wins!!!! ZERO wins, your proposed system allows them to get into the PLAYOFFS!!!! Seriously, this is the best you got? What is wrong with the old system? Yes it has flaws (too small of districts, teams trying to change out of tough districts, etc). But just like College Football, part of the job of the AD, Coaches, Booster club is to sell the program to the community to get people excited.  
 

1. Buchholz (Gainesville) - X (9-1)

2. Columbia (Lake City)

3. Lincoln (Tallahassee) - X

4. Hagerty (Oviedo)

5. Bartram Trail (St. Johns) 7-3

6. Ocoee

7. Creekside (St. Johns)

8. Edgewater (Orlando) - X

 

Gainesville is most likely never going to play Oak Hall (Gainesville), nor should they. But if Oak Hall can win 8 games against similar competition and Gainesville can win 8 games against usual competition, it actually makes sense for both teams to face each other even if Oak Hall loses. They would gain 10 points, Gainesville would gain 12 (out of a possible 15 max). But is this really a game that anybody wants to see? No, but the system that is proposed would make a game like this more feasible to attain the playoffs.

[Joshua Wilson]

Joshua,

Fine...

Only the last 8 games, but I implore you to look at the number 7 seed. That would be Creekside, a team that had ZERO wins!!!! ZERO wins, your proposed system allows them to get into the PLAYOFFS!!!! Seriously, this is the best you got? What is wrong with the old system? Yes it has flaws (too small of districts, teams trying to change out of tough districts, etc). But just like College Football, part of the job of the AD, Coaches, Booster club is to sell the program to the community to get people excited.  

 

1. Buchholz (Gainesville) - X (9-1)

2. Columbia (Lake City)

3. Lincoln (Tallahassee) - X

4. Hagerty (Oviedo)

5. Bartram Trail (St. Johns) 7-3

6. Ocoee

7. Creekside (St. Johns)

8. Edgewater (Orlando) - X

 

Gainesville is most likely never going to play Oak Hall (Gainesville), nor should they. But if Oak Hall can win 8 games against similar competition and Gainesville can win 8 games against usual competition, it actually makes sense for both teams to face each other even if Oak Hall loses. They would gain 10 points, Gainesville would gain 12 (out of a possible 15 max). But is this really a game that anybody wants to see? No, but the system that is proposed would make a game like this more feasible to attain the playoffs.

 

Let me make it clear...this is not my proposed system. This is one idea that is being floated out of the FHSAA offices. However, this is not the end all be all.

 

I got my own ideas I will share soon...stay tuned! 

[Title Town]

This is not totally true. 

Not sure what you mean by 2 associations, as they have one. The NCHSAA the NCISAA is the private school body. 

NC does have private and public associations, but the private school one controls itself. One can go there and re-class, they give out scholarships etc.

The Parochial(fancy word for Catholic) non-boarding schools in NC play with the public schools. One in particular the one I'm actually heavily affliated with up here in NC has been in the public school league for over 40 years with no problems. 

Here is the way FLA needs to do it ans this is the way NC does it:

First you take the top 32, 16 or whatever teams and you seed them based on their record. This bullcrap region switching for regional finals is stupid. If a team has a better record they should get homefield advantage.

You seed conference/district champions in the top seeds then followed by 2nd place finishers, and 3rd place finishers. Sometimes fourth place finishers make it, but that isn't that common honestly. 

Now in the case of a three team district only the champion goes to the playoffs, and four team districts only first place, and second place. 

Right 2 associations like I said . The private school association and basically the public school association. That.s 2 guess I could've worded it better the 2nd association is actually the private division.

[STARaiders2014]

Right 2 associations like I said . The private school association and basically the public school association. That.s 2 guess I could've worded it better the 2nd association is actually the private division.

Ok gotcha, also Charter schools are with public schools but with so many popping up that may not last.

[09mrslick]

I bet if changes were made people are still going to say something is wrong. Can't have your cake and ice-cream and eat it to.

[Joshua Wilson]

Joshua,

Fine...

Only the last 8 games, but I implore you to look at the number 7 seed. That would be Creekside, a team that had ZERO wins!!!! ZERO wins, your proposed system allows them to get into the PLAYOFFS!!!! Seriously, this is the best you got? What is wrong with the old system? Yes it has flaws (too small of districts, teams trying to change out of tough districts, etc). But just like College Football, part of the job of the AD, Coaches, Booster club is to sell the program to the community to get people excited.  

 

1. Buchholz (Gainesville) - X (9-1)

2. Columbia (Lake City)

3. Lincoln (Tallahassee) - X

4. Hagerty (Oviedo)

5. Bartram Trail (St. Johns) 7-3

6. Ocoee

7. Creekside (St. Johns)

8. Edgewater (Orlando) - X

 

Gainesville is most likely never going to play Oak Hall (Gainesville), nor should they. But if Oak Hall can win 8 games against similar competition and Gainesville can win 8 games against usual competition, it actually makes sense for both teams to face each other even if Oak Hall loses. They would gain 10 points, Gainesville would gain 12 (out of a possible 15 max). But is this really a game that anybody wants to see? No, but the system that is proposed would make a game like this more feasible to attain the playoffs.

 

Here is a good question for all of you on here...what is wrong with rewarding teams for playing a tough schedule? If they play it and get rewarded for it, then let them in if it warrants. 0-10 wouldn't get in because they still need to have a way to position themselves to be in the Top 4 of their district. If they aren't, they aren't going no matter what points they got.

[STARaiders2014]

I bet if changes were made people are still going to say something is wrong. Can't have your cake and ice-cream and eat it to.

Aint that the truth. You can never please everyone.

[09mrslick]

Let me ask you all which is how did you all feel when we only had 6 classifications. I can tell you for me my school is Miramar and we've had some bumps in the road, however 1st time going to states and won was in 6A. Now obviously having added two more classifications helped more teams make the playoffs. Just imagine if we still had 6 well wouldn't that have put both Central and Flanagan who both won states in the same class. I don't know if I'm making any sense but thought I'd give it.

[BrowardHandicapper]

Let me ask you all which is how did you all feel when we only had 6 classifications. I can tell you for me my school is Miramar and we've had some bumps in the road, however 1st time going to states and won was in 6A. Now obviously having added two more classifications helped more teams make the playoffs. Just imagine if we still had 6 well wouldn't that have put both Central and Flanagan who both won states in the same class. I don't know if I'm making any sense but thought I'd give it.

Most of the state would love that !  South Florida not so much...South Florida would cannibalize each other.

[Tigerfan1]

Adding 8 classifications and changing 1A to rural is the best thing the FHSAA has ever done for the smaller schools but with all the small 2A and 3A private schools going indy has changed the landscape somewhat. If you take good look you will see that just a few schools in these classifications are the problem (we all know who they are) What the FHSAA should have done when they created the extra classifications was to move those 2A and 3A schools up to a higher class and allowed for a more fair and equitable playing field.

 

I also think by letting in schools that are over 600 in population into 1A will cause the same kind of problems we are now seeing in 2A and in 3A. I dont know what the answer is but i dont think we need a point system that makes every thing so dang complicated that the kids and or the fans cant keep up wit it. The average fan has no idea and most fans on Friday night cant even tell you who is in there teams district. Are far as 3 team dist go i think we do need to try and fix the problem regardless of travel.  

[Hwy17]

Or in a three team district only the district champion should be allowed in the playoffs.

 

Agree!  

 

My biggest issue is teams making the playoffs with losing records just because they come in 2nd place in their district.  The wildcard system of old used the point system as a tie-breaker.  Wildcards were determined first by overall w/l record, followed by head-to-head match up if applicable, then by points.  Points were awarded as 1 point for each win each of your opponents had, class didn't matter.   However, back then, district runner-ups still got in and yes, some got in with losing records.  I'd say bring it back but with 4 district champs and 4 wildcards, then select wildcards by overall w/l record and use a point system to determine a tie-breaker like before.  Also the point system could be used for seeding purposes.  The goal should be the best 8 teams per region get in.  

 

For those who don't get how the FHSAA determines classification, this is how its done (in a nutshell).  The population of all schools are collected and then a list is created in descending order from most enrollment to least.  Then, the list is divided by 6 (not 8) to create equal number of schools in each class.  The small classes are then split in half because of the large spread between the largest and smallest schools in those respective classes and only after a lot of protest. It was during last re-class year that rural and urban and public-private were separated.  Starting in the panhandle and working clockwise, schools are placed in districts; with the goal of having as many schools in the north, regions 1 & 2 as in the south, regions 3 and 4.  

 

The state has experienced uneven growth.  This has caused such a large spread between the largest and smallest school in each class and has been a real problem for the smallest of classes. For this reason I think an standard number, like 500, should be used as the cut-off in separating classes. That might mean some classes have more schools, but its something I think would work better.  

[Tigerfan1]

Agree!  

 

 

 

This has caused such a large spread between the largest and smallest school in each class and has been a real problem for the smallest of classes. For this reason I think an standard number, like 500, should be used as the cut-off in separating classes. That might mean some classes have more schools, but its something I think would work better.  

I like most of what you are saying Hwy17 but i dont think we in 1A will have enough teams to go below 550 or maybe 600. As it stands now the south end of 1A is larger by several teams since adding Ft Meade, Pahokee, Ft White, Madison and Baldwin.