HornetFan
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Posts posted by HornetFan
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On 9/26/2019 at 11:39 PM, skyway said:
They should stop pretending their ratings of schools are actually ratings of the quality of the teachers and administration. Lots of folks, like yourself it seems, actually think the ratings are actually indicative of the quality of instruction available. The only effect of the rating system is the richer schools whose parents are more educated and involved get richer, while the poorer schools get poorer.
On balance, your comment is ridiculous and appears to be a concession you don't have much more to offer to the discussion.
And the purpose of the transfer policy was to allow kids from those poorer schools to transfer to schools where their chance of academic success can be much greater. What is ridiculous is people like you selling football to these kids as their way to success. Less than one in a thousand make it to the NFL. Those that make it seldom last more than 2 or 3 seasons. Then, it's on to the real world where they are not prepared for much more than riding on the back of a garbage truck. And you justify it because you want your high school team to win championships; that's sad.
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Clearwater
Cocoa
Lakewood
Tampa Catholic
Vero Beach
Deland
Oakleaf
Edgewater
Palmetto
N Marion
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59 minutes ago, skyway said:
Meh. Point is, there are literally millions of HS players across the country who work their tails off, but simply aren't able to beat out some other player with more talent. Sometimes, the player shifted to 2nd string is really good. And, sometimes, they can STILL get noticed and get opportunities. The current starting QB of the University of Florida was a backup in HS...
Kyle Trask was a backup in HS and spent 4 years as a backup at UF. Now, let's name another HS backup that received a similar opportunity. For the great majority of HS football players, HS is the end of their football career. By importing players from outside the school, coaches are telling these kids that the coach's football record is more important than the kid's HS experience.
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58 minutes ago, skyway said:
I think this is an opportunity to enlighten some folks on the school evaluation process. There is actually only ONE metric being used to rate schools: The major state test held once in the spring and the scores of the students on that test. That.Is.It. There is no in-depth evaluation of the quality of the instruction or the quality of the administration. If the kids score highly, the school gets a good rating; if the kids score much lower, the school gets a poor rating. This is akin to evaluating the quality of a coaching staff EXCLUSIVELY on the W-L record of the team. Yes, good coaches can win more games than their talent may project, and lesser coaches can lose more than their talent would project. And good teachers can guide kids to do better on the state test than they otherwise might score, and lesser teachers can get lesser results. But, suggesting, automatically, that a school with high test scores has better teachers and administrators based SOLELY off of the scores of one test is asinine. It is no different than someone evaluating, say, Kathleen's coaching staff and saying all of the coaches suck while all of Lakeland's coaches are great...solely because Lakeland finishes 10-0 and Kathleen goes 3-7. Lakeland ended up with a gross disproportionate edge in the talent and motivation level of football players compared to Kathleen. And "A" and "B" rated schools end up with a gross disproportionate edge in the talent and motivation level of students.
I guess the state of Florida should stop rating schools academically and grade them only by how successful their football program performs.
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7 hours ago, Legion37 said:
So you have no real evidence that anyone is recruiting. Thus you're making baseless accusations.
Good to know.
They are not baseless accusations. I know that the #1 ranked school in Central Florida recruits. I have spoken with several kids and a coach from a neighboring school that were approached by players from that #1 school. They were told that the coaches couldn't talk to them direct unless they inquired about a transfer. If a friend sets you up with a neighbor's wife or you approach her yourself, it's still cheating.
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2 minutes ago, THIS_IS_DILLARD said:
Probably then!! Were talking about NOW!
We have alot of terrible schools...some avg schools...a few above avg schools. And 2 elite schools in STA & IMG more so img because STA havent even been the best in there on class lately.
Are we comparing OOS national all-star teams like Mater Dei, St Frances, and say Bishop Gorman, against all-star teams here in Florida like IMG and STA, or are we talking about 2nd tier OOS all-star teams that travel to Florida and schedule our traditional high school teams that don't recruit? IMG and STA can compete with the best OOS schools. I don't think it's fair to compare our traditional schools to 2nd tier OOS travelling teams. Florida still has a tremendous amount of high school talent, comparable to California and Texas.
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2 hours ago, Legion37 said:
Evidence? Or simply baseless accusations? Or are you guessing?
I stand by what I posted. The transfer policy was sold in the state legislature as a way to enable academically under-performing students to move to a school that would improve their chances for a better education. If it were put in place for athletic transfers, they would have allowed for recruiting.
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13 hours ago, gatorman-uf said:
Sorry HornetFan, but the Republican-led (anti Public Schools) state legislature explicitly said they didn't care why kids transferred. They made the arguments that we don't stop a kid from going to the best band program in the county why should stop a kid going to the best football, basketball, baseball program in the country. Now, the legislature still allowed the FHSAA to exist but they essentially neutered them. Should coaches be ethical, yes? But if your elected leaders are saying do what is best for you then they are going to do it.
Should we add that the transfer policy was sponsored by a state legislator from Lakeland? I guess when your state legislator and coach have trouble being ethical, you can't expect much more from their fans.
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14 hours ago, skyway said:
They were players on an AAU team I played for many years. One is named Tracy.
So you failed to mention that your association with the future NBA players happened in AAU and not in a Florida high school. AAU programs deal solely with athletics and as a private organization, they have nothing to do with transfer or recruiting rules that are applicable to FHSAA schools.
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14 hours ago, skyway said:
You mean special programs like a nationally rated football program who's coach is respected by college coaches nationwide? Or just some other special programs? How do you determine which special programs are OK for kids to seek out and which ones are bayud?
What if I told you that, by far, the strongest push towards transfers and super teams was being led by players and their families? What if I told you that Kathleen's kids felt their coaching staff wasn't looking out for their best interests and saw much better results across town and that THAT is why they transferred. Not because some slick coach offered them a cookie.
I find it infuriating that people like you will demand that schools who's students' academic test scores are low simply "man up" and do better as they watch many of the best, most motivated kids leave/never come to go to a charter or other school. Those schools end up with, on balance, less motivated and less capable students to work with, while the charter or other schools end up with a stacked deck. And then they get all the praise for the impeding success, while the schools who's student bodies are depleted struggle even more. You're happy to see them continue to have their funding cut and shifted to the other schools, even though they've been put at a significant disadvantage. But, take the EXACT same set of circumstances and apply them to football or basketball and you'll lose your fucking mind telling us all how it's unfair. This, even though a school having a good or bad football team has no bearing on the $ it will receive from the state.
Which one is it? Do schools need a more level playing field in regards to having more equal access to motivated and talented students? Or should it all be a free market system where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer or get put out of business?
Let's clear up the obvious first; the state of Florida does not recognize athletic teams as a "magnet program" as you inferred in your post. Next, as for telling under-performing students to simply "man up", I don't support that direction. That is specifically what the transfer program was supposed to address. It allows students at schools that are deficient to transfer to a better academic school in their area. The transfer program was passed by the legislature to address academic issues, not athletic program building. I don't support the creation of all these charter schools that are not required to meet the same standards as our public schools. Dumbing down the curriculum so kids can get higher grades does nothing to improve their education.
As for which one is it? "schools need a more level playing field in regards to having more equal access to motivated and talented students", including under-performing students seeking better instruction, but that level playing field is the classroom, not the football field or basketball court.
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2 minutes ago, skyway said:
I tell them I put in a lot of hard work in my time as well. I couldn't beat out players (two of whom went on to play in the NBA) despite my best efforts. Such is life. Everyone can't get a trophy, a starting spot, etc. And I'd also tell them that if not being able to beat out the other players bothers them that much, the transfer door swings the other way, too. Pretty sure at least one kid who was on the spring roster transfered out to a private school...
The problem with your rationale is that this isn't college football, it's high school football. As for your hard work in your time and being beat out by two future NBA players, were these "imaginary NBA players" local kids or transfers that were recruited by your local public high school?
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23 hours ago, Legion37 said:
How does a team abuse the transfer rules?
If there are rules in place then everyone plays by that deck.
They abuse the transfer rules by recruiting kids for athletics. The transfer rules were supposedly put in place for kids that wanted the opportunity for a better education at a school that was rated higher academically than their previous school, or to allow kids to take special programs such as those offered at magnet schools. Coaches use their players to recruit so the coach cannot be charged with intentionally violating the rules.
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20 hours ago, skyway said:
Closer examination should reveal it is the PLAYER that is putting in the lion's share of the work. So, why shouldn't they get to choose where they play? Why shouldn't they get the chance to make a longer commute to go to a place that offers more/better resources, facilities, etc?
Everyone loved bashing Lakeland when several George Jenkins players tried to "move in" to Lakeland's zone several years ago and were banned from playing. Meanwhile, the coach at Jenkins ended up behind bars for sleeping with minors who were students at the school. Maybe that's not the kind of coach they should have to bust their ass for?
Ok, you've drawn your liberal line in the sand. As long as the coach isn't sleeping with minors, everything else is acceptable as long as Lakeland has a winning team. What do you say to the kids that have put in their training an efforts for 2 or 3 years from 9th grade on and can't get on the field because you're recruiting players from other schools? I'm sure the morale is really great for those local kids.
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1 hour ago, gatorman-uf said:
Grumble Grumble Grumble
I get the reasoning and actually agree with the reasoning overall, as teams will be more set in where they are the later you release it, so you are less likely see a team go from 15th to 5th over the course of 4 weeks, but the first time you release the system the early the better so that watchful eyes can look it over. At least that is my opinion.
I also agree that pushing the ratings out two weeks is the best course for FHSAA to take. When it finally comes out, every coach and rabid fan of a team with a prayer of sniffing the playoffs will be going through gyrations and calculations to determine the "what if's" for the remainder of the season. The later it comes out, it will be easier to narrow the focus down to fewer potential teams.
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2 hours ago, Legion37 said:
A victory is a victory if it is done within the rules. And a student who attends a school is very much not an outsider, those transfers will be receiving LHS diplomas, just as I did. Military kids sometimes attend 2 or 3 different highs schools due to the nature of that life style. If a transfer comes in and pushes some one out of a position, be it in sports, band, student government, Jrotc, drama...whatever, then it is as it is. Life is not fair. Despite attempts by some to make it so, it just isn't. Nothing unethical at all working within the rules.
Are you serious? Now you have to use military families to justify skirting the rules? How many of the football transfers have started attending Lakeland this year or last year because a parent has transferred to a military base in Lakeland? How many kids in Lakeland HS band or JROTC lost their spots in those groups because the son or daughter of a military person transferred to Lakeland HS? I think it's best you stop trying to defend something that really has no defense.
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The Orlando Sentinel printed a article today that addresses when RPI rankings will be released: "FHSAA football playoff power rankings still two weeks away". Initial rankings will be released following completion of Week 7 games in two weeks.
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16 hours ago, LAZ said:
From a strictly football perspective I agree with you. Wake Forest, Vandy, Kansas, Illinois, Indiana, Rutgers, etc. were grandfathered in. They belong to the establishment and to the conferences that hold the 81% advantage in head to head competition. You can thank those grandfathered institutions for helping keep the margin at 81%. If those schools were in the G5 it would be more like 90%.
But the answer to your statement lies in the revenue those schools generate for their conferences from other sports and other sources. Not just football. Otherwise, we would wouldn’t be having this conversation.
There are only two real revenue sports in college, football and men's basketball. Those two sports support all other college sports. Perennial basketball powers like Kansas, Connecticut, and UCLA do not come close to matching what football brings to the Power 5 conferences in TV money. As for being "grandfathered in", Rutgers and Maryland recently joined the Big 10; Louisville and others did the same in the ACC, Texas A&M and Missouri to the SEC, etc. The Power 5 is a consortium of older, established schools who find it mutually beneficial to isolate newer Division I football schools and minimize their access to TV revenue and thereby limit competition based upon a level playing field.
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9 hours ago, Legion37 said:
Wouldn't students at a school be automatically classified as diehard fans? And I can tell you that not every student at a school has either pride or cares a hoot about FB. Most but not all.
When I was a kid growing up, we learned to fight our own battles, and if we lost, it was us that lost and we accepted that result. The new philosophy of "rent a football player" to wear your school's uniform and play your games for you, just seems to take something away from the victories. At least with ethical fans, I think it would. It would also bother me that our homegrown kids who have worked hard, put in the effort, and had hopes of playing football for their school, would be shoved aside so an outsider could come in and play in their place.
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15 hours ago, skyway said:
Sure. And that is...life. Happens in all other aspects of K-12 education, higher education and the workplace as well.
Every single school with great test scores and thus great ratings benefit SIGNIFICANTLY from consistently landing the brightest and most motivated students; every school with poor test scores/ratings is hurt by losing most of the brightest/most motivated students to those other schools. The "culture" at each kind of school is significantly impacted by the makeup of their student bodies. A shit football team almost also always has a losing mentality, while teams that win a lot have a positive attitude. Businesses consistently benefit tremendously from starting from a commanding position through lots of investment $, while those struggling to survive are at an increased disadvantage. Those with lots of money can then pay to get the best employees away from other companies. Wealthy companies can eventually drive other companies out of business through having a lot of leverage and $. And so on..
I find it so incredibly weird that we have message boards full of people who proudly claim to be capitalists, who claim to hate the forced equality of socialism etc, who suddenly do a 180 and come on here and bash families for moving their kids to schools that provide the most resources and best experiences for the kids. It's totally great to try to get your kid into a school that offers a great engineering program, the best band programs, best theater etc. But should the family of a promising football player want to go somewhere that happens to offer a considerably better football program with better resources and services, suddenly you all become bleeding heart socialists begging for everyone to have the same everything.
*I'm actually on the progressive, liberal end of the political spectrum FWIW.
By your last statement, "*I'm actually on the progressive, liberal end of the political spectrum FWIW" , I understand you're argument for "entitlement" when it comes to taking the fruits of another coach's labor, not sharing in the effort to develop the talent, and using it as if you have every right to benefit from someone else's efforts. As a conservative, I believe that the person who puts in the work should reap the rewards from their efforts.
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6 hours ago, LAZ said:
There are only a few ways to get UCF or any G5 team included in the playoff.
1) Expand the current four team format to include enough teams so the highest ranked G5 team might get in.
2) Get invited to join a P5 Conference.
3) Go Independent and play a Notre Dame type schedule (See BYU).
Last year, I put together some data to show why it's impossible for the committee to include G5 schools in the final four. I went back to 2008 and got some negative feedback saying I had too much historical data and teams that are now P5 were G5 back then (Louisville, TCU) which skewed the results. So, I narrowed the historical scope down to 2014 - 2018. This represents the 5 years since we started the four team playoff.
To begin, everyone must realize that knowingly or not, the NCAA helped create the issue back in 1995 when it declared any football playing school that plays D1 basketball, must also play D1 football. This meant that many, many schools playing D2 and D3 football had to compete at least at the 1AA level. Division 1 has been in a state of chaos ever since. What was D1A and D1AA has now evolved into three distinct levels of Division 1.
Division 1 now consists of FBS Power 5 (traditional D1programs), FBS Group 5 (Former 1AA schools mixed with old traditional D1 programs that rarely excelled in football in the modern age), and FCS (a mixture of traditional 1AA schools mixed with D2 and D3 schools forced to play D1 football as a result of the 1995 NCAA Ruling.
Over the past 5 seasons (2014-2018) the numbers tell the story:
Power 5 is 429-101 (81%) vs. Group 5 (Average Game Score: P5 38, G5 20)
Group 5 is 254-32 (89%) vs. FCS (Average Game Score: G5 42, FCS 16)
For those interested in how things look thus far in 2019 here's the info through Sept 21:
Power 5 is 56-19 (75%) vs. Group 5 (Average Game Score: P5 38, G5 19)
Group 5 is 56-2 (97%) vs. FCS (Average Game Score: G5 40, FCS 17)
I'd have to say the data is holding and there are three (3) distinct levels of NCAA Division 1 College Football
Like it or not, I still hold to my statement that Division 1 football is comparable to boxing and at this time should not be treated as one entity:
Power 5 = Heavyweight
Group 5 = Cruiserweight
FCS = Light Heavyweight
So you're telling us that Wake Forest, Vandy, Kansas, llinois, Indiana, Rutgers, etc. are heavyweights and UCF, Boise State, and the rest of the very good G5 teams are only cruiserweights?
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3 hours ago, badbird said:
I can respect this post. I would be willing to bet no Lakeland coaches are cheating. That doesn’t mean all the transfers are legal. Lakeland has a great program and a great coach.
You sound like Bill Clinton; it all depends on what you mean by "cheating".
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9 hours ago, Legion37 said:
Well that is basically true of any High School program. Nobody but diehard fans care if any high school wins a championship. LOL
That's not true. The students at almost all schools take pride in their teams and love to see them win. Some win following the rules and others ........................
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On 9/22/2019 at 3:21 PM, skyway said:
I know this disappoints you, but, a tweet from a teenager hardly qualifies as fact, or evidence of anything. "Dear Lakeland high school" may refer to another teenager messaging him to come over. Not some official or coach from Lakeland.
I was speaking to a coach today about this very topic. He stated that it is strictly forbidden for coaches to recruit talent from other schools, BUT that doesn't stop the players from a school recruiting friends or acquaintances from other schools. The players do it on the QT. He said all coaches are aware this practice is going on.
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3 hours ago, Perspective said:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/poor-schools-cant-compete-richer-120227608.html
Interesting article. Could this ever happen in Florida?
I don't think this could ever happen in Florida, but at least in Iowa they're seeking a solution for the apparent disparity in teams. I would rather see teams move to districts where the competition would be balanced. Here in Florida, you get one team that abuses transfer rules and that district becomes noncompetitive. If you want super teams, let them form a single league and play each other or go national like IMG. Stop beating up on teams that field only homegrown talent.
Lakeland Continues Its Domination of SFL
in The Huddle
Posted
I love football, but kids have to understand, it's not as important as a good education. I don't believe in participation awards and for many kids from poor areas that high school championship is just that, a participation award. They won a high school football championship. They may get an athletic scholarship to college; few will graduate with a worthwhile degree and sufficient knowledge to succeed in the workplace. But, you as a fan will cherish that championship; a championship that was earned through no effort on your part.