OldSchoolLion

Maybe it is time for everyone to take a big step back and think about what we are trying to accomplish with hs football. The focus today is clearly showcasing kids and recruiting...and less on winning district and regional titles. The playoffs were a much bigger deal years ago. We had some playoff game attendances eons ago that dwarf what we see today. There is just so much distraction for players and fans alike. So maybe we should have an end-of-season bowl game and be done with it. Am not saying I like it...not at all. But am open to the idea if the majority think the effort of having the playoffs the way we do now is not worth the bother. I see many folks getting much more revved up about out-of-state games than individual playoff games.

I hope I am understanding your point correctly...Panhandle used to be more productive. I agree. As much as I admire those old teams from the Panhandle, I think their performance from back then potentially set up unrealistic expectations for the future. In the big class 4A/5A, between 1975-1989 they were 12-0 versus central Florida teams in the state semis. Around 1990, things started to change, and am sure a lot had to do with population growth. The run was over. Am not saying they had it easy, but it was nothing like today. If we say the Panhandle lacks depth, I think an argument could be made that Tampa does too, relatively speaking. The big difference between the two is that Tampa has a couple of perennial powerhouses, which the Panhandle doesn't.

gotcha ..No doubt Armwood and Plant are stronger programs than those those in the Panhandle

We had 5 classes for nearly 15 years. 3A was a sweet spot for those mid-sized teams. I know this will likely never happen, but it's nice to dream. If 7A/8A were combined and likewise 5A/6A, and 3A/4A , the regional finals could have looked like this..some very intriguing matchups, especially in 4A and 5A. For kicks I placed the student population of the "5A"schools in parentheses after the school name. I doubt we would ever hear complaints of competitive finals between north and south with this scheme. Class 5A Region 1 Wekiva(2175) vs Bartram Trail(2484) Region 2 Plant(2399) vs Dr Phillips(3797) Region 3 Atlantic(2292) vs Venice(2174) Region 4 St Thomas(2109) vs Miami(2920) Class 4A Region 1 St Augustine v W Florida Region 2 Armwood v Baker County Region 3 Naples v Immokalee Region 4 Northwestern v American Heritage (PL) Class 3A Region 1 Raines v FSU Region 2 Bradford v Oxbridge Region 3 Cocoa v Clearwater Central Catholic Region 4 Chaminade v Unviersity

Sorry had to edit above. Was in process but you are too fast lol Godby, Lincoln, Niceville, Wakulla made the state finals this decade Armwood, Jefferson,Plant made the state finals this decade

The population of the entire Panhandle (including Tallahassee) is about the same as Hillsborough County. Below are state finalists from each county from the mid-upper classes over the past 15 years. Maybe we expect too much out of them because it is such a large land mass. Hillsborough-Armwood, Jefferson, Plant, Tampa Catholic Panhandle-Godby, Lincoln, Niceville, Pensacola, Pine Forest, Wakulla

Below is a breakdown of 3-season, composite records of Broward County teams. Only 1 of 29 public schools has been able to string together 3 straight winning seasons(more wins than losses). 7 out of 10 private schools have done so. Some of the teams with composite “winning” records have experienced fairly drastic swings in performance. Note information in parentheses. For perspective, 6 of 36 Miami-Dade public schools have had 3 straight winning seasons. It appears that certain teams outside south Florida are not the only ones impacted by the dynamics in Broward County. Assuming this is a simply a matter of kids in Broward County wanting to go to private school, I don’t see any forces changing the trend. The drastic change in performance of several of the teams suggest the possibility of something more than a “normal” rebuilding process. Winning Records *Teams with 3 straight winning seasons Public: Boyd Anderson 20-11 Cypress Bay 15-14 *Deerfield Beach 31-8 Dillard 18-15 Douglas 17-13 Flanagan 22-15 (1-10 in 2017, 9-3 in 2016) Hallandale 17-16 McArthur 18-13 (1-9 in 2017, 11-1 in 2016) Miramar 22-8 Piper 20-13 (1-9 in 2017, 9-2 in 2016) Plantation 19-13 (9-2 in 2017, 2-8 in 2016) West Broward 20-13 Western 22-12 Private: *American Heritage 37-2 *Archbishop McCarthy 28-6 *Calvary Christian 21-10 Cardinal Gibbons 24-10 *Chaminade-Madonna 28-10 *North Broward Prep 23-10 Pine Crest 2012 *St Thomas Aquinas 38-6 *University 24-9 Westminster Academy 12-17 (1-9 in 2017, 5-4 in 2016) Others Coconut Creek 8-19 Cooper City 12-19 Coral Glades 9-20 Coral Springs 11-19 Ely 7-24 Everglades 9-24 Fort Lauderdale 11-18 Hollywood Hills 7-21 Monarch 11-17 Northeast 4-26 Nova 15-19 Pompano Beach 11-19 South Broward 12-18 South Plantation 7-25 Stranahan 12-22 Taravella 8-22

there we go! All of these matchups involved teams from neighboring counties. Good job to all who participated. It's interesting that soemthing that only happened once in 35 years has not happened 3 times in the past 15 years. Will we see more such matchups in the future, or even in-county state finals? 2017 3A Chaminade vs Oxbridge 2005 6A Deerfield vs PB Gardens 2004 4A Armwood vs Lake Gibson 1982 3A Titusville vs Osceola ..and if we wanted to go WAY back, we could offer say 1968 A Jesuit vs Kathleen

more detail please

..concerning comparisons of schools from smaller classes compared versus larger classifications. Back in 1970, things were much different demographically. It's potentially not apples -to-apples today when comparing populations Here is an example. Hardee County is 43% Hispanic(37% Mexican). Madison County is 5% Hispanic. ...according to school data Hardee County has approximately 715 boys at the school. Approximately 415 are of Hispanic descent. So, there are approximately 300 non-Hispanic boys at the school. Madison County has approximately 290 boys, and approximately 10 are of Hispanic descent. So, there are approximately 280 non-Hispanic boys at the school. I don't think I am going out on a limb(please correct me if I am wrong) in saying that there is likely a subset of the Hispanic populations, especially those in rural communities, that do not play football. No doubt there are plenty that do. My point is simply that there is potential for much smaller schools to have a larger pool of football players from which to pull simply because of demographic differences.

Our sticklers for detail could argue that Largo High-Lakeland and Chaminade-Oxbridge are slightly more than 50 miles, at least according to googlemaps. What do the following matchups have in common? 2017 3A Chaminade vs Oxbridge 2005 6A Deerfield vs PB Gardens 2004 4A Armwood vs Lake Gibson 1982 3A Titusville vs Osceola ..and if we wanted to go WAY back, we could offer say 1968 A Jesuit vs Kathleen

I provided facts earlier in the post demonstrating how American Heritage (PL), Chaminade, and Cardinal Gibbons made what in my opinion were astonishing strides in performance in short periods of time. Please share what techniques (drills, coaching, etc) they used so that others might get ideas as to how to enjoy similar success. You mentioned that Ponte Vedra(St Johns County) figured it out pretty quickly and Venice(Sarasota County) took advantage. Not to mention Bartram Trail(St Johns County). Please look at the following chart. https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/united-states/quick-facts/florida/percent-of-people-of-all-ages-in-poverty#chart St Johns and Sarasota Counties are two of the wealthiest counties in the state. Only 1 county has more people living below the poverty line than Hardee. There are relatively few thriving, ranked teams amongst the poorest of counties. I think it more than coincidence that schools in some of the wealthiest counties in the state are "figuring things out" quicker than poor counties. We need to be sensitive to the fact that some kids and parents may have more to worry about than football...namely, what's for dinner tonight. And kids in some rural counties struggling with substance abuse at very high rates. It's not simply a matter of "trying harder" to make up for the disparities between their programs and some of the highly ranked programs. I think it's unfair of us to assume that some programs have fallen off simply due to lack of effort on the practice field. It is probably a fact that "loaded" teams are here to stay. It is a fact that Florida has one of the highest income inequalities amongst its residents of any state in the country. And it is probably a fact that this gap will continue to widen. My opinion...in the past, rural counties, through sheer grit, determination, and some excellent coaching, were able to overcome the odds and compete with places like Miami-Dade and Broward. There was a tipping point where factors such as disappearing jobs, demographic changes and poverty caused the teeter totter to tip against their favor. For instance, certain rural counties in FL have been overwhelmed by incoming minority populations that have taxed local resources. St Johns has a Hispanic population of 5%. Hardee has a Hispanic population of 43%. I share information related to demographics not to offend anyone. There are social changes taking place now in Florida that are unprecedented and I feel certain they are impacting hs football in powerful ways. Some are not happy with our current playoff structure. If loaded teams AND socially-related changes are here to stay, telling some to try harder is not going to change much. If some coaches have the luxury of fielding a team full of new transfers and think that is ethical, fine. Those folks should compete in their own league. I didn't use to feel this way, but educating myself about the changes that are taking place in Florida outside our little world of hs football has made me change my tune. If something doesn't change the way we match up teams in classes, playoffs, etc, I predict we will have even greater mismatches on the playing field in the future.

I raised a question earlier... "Would people be all right with a state series final in which we have multiple state final games in the same year between teams from adjoining counties or even the same county?" What if 3 of the finals this year looked like this? One could argue these were the best teams in each class. Would there be any negatives in the eyes of players and/or fans? 6A Miami Central vs Miami Northwestern 5A AH Plantation vs Cardinal Gibbons 3A Oxbridge vs Chaminade If we want to maintain the model of North vs South, having only 90 teams in a class might be raising the odds that one sector will field a team that is some might consider "weak." Imagine if 7A and 8A were combined. And 5A and 6A. We probably wouldn't have an issue getting a strong team from both the north and the south. Texas' 5A divisions each have about 125 schools...about 1.5 X the size of our current larger classes.

The intent of this post was to share information related to Texas' current playoff system in the hope of generating discussion related to our current playoff system. BH mentioned an interesting point about getting the most competitive teams to play in the finals and I provided some additional data related to the spread of ranked teams in the state. I'd suggest we get back on track. Columbia was kind enough to start an entirely new topic related to AHP and 5A. Some of the more recent discussion on this post is probably best suited over there. Thank you.

I have mentioned this in many posts. Miami-Dade won 0 state titles in the 1980's. Panhandle teams won 5 state titles in Class 4A (the largest at the time) alone. The population in Miami-Dade in 1980 was about 1.625 million people. The population of the entire Panhandle today is still over 200,000 less than Miami-Dade was nearly 38 years ago! Miami had the Dolphins, so it's not as if football wasn't a big deal in Miami at the time.

Byron Walker is one of the winningest coaches in the history of Florida and won multiple state titles as a coach at Glades Day. He won 2 state titles as a player at Glades Central. He coached at AH Plantation for 19 years and showed he had what it took to lead AHP to a title game in 1998. I would think if he lost his touch and kids did not want to play for him any more, he would not have been a coach there for so long.

Yes. And it makes me think how that might impact the life of a kid already there at Piper. Some might say "too bad." Easy to do until we are the one impacted.

Good point. And they barely beat Mainland that year and got whooped by Central. And since 2013 they have won some games they could have lost. But I do not think any of it takes away from the fact that they made some dramatic improvements over a relatively short period of time. I am still waiting for someone to offer reasons for this rise in performance. I would be happy to hear it was home-grown kids who came around after putting in their dues. I honestly don't recall the whole story.

Please keep in mind what I initially stated...that this event took place 3 times prior to this year. So, I'll need two more south FL matchups if that is indeed the correct response.

My issue is with teams with meteoric rises to prominence. Coaching legends..George Smith, Bill Castle, etc etc....they and their programs put in their dues. They were great coaches and had some great talent, but even they could not pull off some of the things I see today. It is not a school or coach's fault if they have 4-star recruits banging down the door. How they handle it is the issue and where sportsmanship comes into play. I am MUCH more concerned about the lessons we are teaching kids than records or domination. "Sorry, son, I know you have busted your tail for us for three years, but Johnny 4-star just showed up, so too bad." There is plenty of time for those sorts of tough lessons in college and the adult world. My "agenda" is about principles, not my team is better than your team. I have gone out of my way to provide positive recognition of individuals and teams, past and present, public and private. I don't pimp any individual teams, and the mere fact I don't mention a specific team in a discussion is not a slight or intentional omission. No problems with success when it is earned. Sorry, but putting 10 transfers on the field is not earning success(or sportsman-like) at a high school in my value system, and I would say the same of any team in the entire state. I understand if others feel differently.

Gorilla is a reference to 800-pound gorilla, or elephant. It was a very common, old expression used when talking about something very powerful. You'll find numerous references to it, even in the dictionary.

If you think that is correct, please name the other three times that took place. I don't think you will be able to

Good point. And that definition has likely evolved over time as private schools(and universities) have become more like commercial businesses. Private schools are not guaranteed survival, so, in a manner of speaking, they have always had to recruit attendees, just as a private business must recruit customers.

What unique event took place this year in Orlando? In one of the matchups, we saw something that has only been witnessed 3 times before in the history of the FHSAA. The last time it happened was this past decade. It is possible there is more than one answer to this question, but I am looking for one in particular. This is not some obscure statistic.

ends justifies the means, whatever it takes as long as you get success...great lesson for the kiddies. the issue is not one of results, but "how?" HWY17 asked 2 questions...So how does that much talent end up concentrated onto one team? And in such a short time period? you say Hardee is struggling. Hardee is 7-4 and 8-3 in the past 2 season. I don't consider that struggling. ..throw a human in a cage with a pissed off gorilla and I guess the gorilla will make anyone look like they are struggling