gatorman-uf

OldSchoolLion, I read some of the comments as well. They are some good points made on both sides. I do agree that it doesn't seem to be a problem in football, but most likely is a bigger force in sports like basketball, baseball, softball, volleyball, and soccer. I clicked on past champions in baseball for Alabama and in 2016 and below it looked like the 4 smallest classes were dominated by private schools. I don't know schools well in Alabama, but if I see "Christian" or Academy or Prep in the name, I can make a good assumption that it probably isn't a public school. The difference that I see is how the state politicians interfere in the running of the state HS Athletic Association. In Alabama, the state legislature pulls strings to ensure a balance that it is tilted towards public schools. In Florida, the exact opposite. Could you imagine a multiplier for private schools here in Florida? Could you imagine a separate classification for private schools? The state legislature would be up in arms and would behead all those in the FHSAA. We know there are public schools that dominate certain sports Ribault Girls Basketball, Brandon Wrestling, Dillard Basketball all come to mind. Palm Beach Lakes Girls Track and Northwestern Girls Track come to mind, but those are rarity. If you look at girl's volleyball for example, of the teams that have won more than 5 state championships only 3 are public out of the 11. That tells you a good deal of how hard it is to maintain success at a public school vs a private school. Of the 16 teams that have 3 or more state championship in softball in Florida, 6 are public schools with the top 2 being public schools. Again, I think that it just shows that while a public school can be successful, it is much harder to sustain that success year in and year out compared to the privates. Additionally, I don't think even dominate public schools succeed in multiple sports. You rarely see a dominate football, basketball, and baseball program for example. They might be good in 3, but they aren't winning state championships in all three. With the private schools, you do see that.

Skip Austin was the Head Coach of Forest (Ocala) High School.

Sigh... this is why this board is frustrating.. Just wait then. You don't need to post just to add to your post count. As for the actual proposal, it is almost like Alabama reads my posts about the idea of promotion and relegation. Granted I apply my ideas to all teams (public and private), but at least they understand that teams should move up because they are successful to play better competition. I love the idea. I don't know how Alabama schedules their non-football sports, but I like they are sensitive to the issues of girls/boys basketball and soccer. I would prefer them to treat them individually, but I like the fact they showed sensitivity. My frustration is that the FHSAA has not tried to equalize the size of classifications at the lower levels. If we put 1A aside, 2A-4A are too small in terms of number of teams, there should be about 40-50 teams. They already do this is sports like Basketball (5A-9A are 85+ teams) (2A-4A are 49+ teams). Yes, I know more teams play basketball instead of football, but they could still equalize the classes which they have failed to do. 2A: Less than 440 students (non-Rural Division) 3A: 440-950 4A: 950-1300 5A: 1300-1650 Would more than equalize many of the lower classifications.

Some additional video https://florida.247sports.com/Bolt/WATCH-Brawl-breaks-out-in-Florida-Georgia-All-Star-Game-113319159/

http://highschoolbuzz.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2018/01/06/football-brawl-breaks-out-at-florida-vs-georgia-all-star-game/

Spruce Creek's 8 wins were all against Cat 3 and 4 teams OCU had 2 cat 3 wins, 2 cat 4 wins, and a cat 1 win... their 4 losses were all cat 1 and 2... Does SC have 8 wins with OCU's same schedule, probably not... If we only gave 5 more points for Cat 1 wins (and no others) than SC still makes it in over OCU and West Orange... My biggest problem with how the FHSAA does things is that they do not actually do the math ahead of time. They just kind of see if it will work.

Right, if they want to "reward" teams for playing tough games. Fine increase category 1, but not all of them.

You run into the dangerous situation of when losing trumps winning. Let's use Class 3A (I chose the last seed in each region) American Heritage's points increase to 37.89 with the additional points for losing. Newberry's points increase to 37.11 Melbourne Central Catholic's points increase to 38.22 Tampa Catholic's points increase to 39 A team stinks, like really bad, but their schedule is awesome. They have 7 category 1 losses, who all happen to be playoff teams in previous years. They additionally have 3 category 2 wins. This 3-7 team now has a playoff points of 38.6 points. Does this team really deserve to be in? I would say not, but the new system lets them in. Like I said, the biggest problem is that they need to make top flight wins worth more. The gaps should be more than 5 points.

I didn't include 1A as nothing would change except for the addition of Trenton.

In order to make the system work, you need 32 districts. We want to end complaints of small districts and we need to have 3 "successful" teams, so the district needed to be at least 7, but 8 works better. So after you remove, 1A teams and the 256 "Large school teams", you equally divide the other classifications. which is why 6A is larger. Just realize, if Bolles or Trinity Christian moved back to 3A. Columbia's district could potential change and move to Jacksonville. Again, I am a believer if I am going to propose something you have to show people how it would work. Again this is just hoping the FHSAA people realize some things.

Class 6A Region 1 District 1 Escambia Gulf Breeze Milton Pace Pine Forest Tate Washington (Pensacola) District 2 Chiles Crestview Fort Walton Beach Leon Lincoln Mosley Navarre Niceville District 3 Buchholz Columbia Fleming Island Forest Gainesville Middleburg Oakleaf Vanguard (Ocala) West Port District 4 Bolles Englewood First Coast Fletcher Robert E. Lee Sandalwood Terry Parker Trinity Christian (Jacksonville) District 5 Atlantic Coast Bartram Trail Creekside Mandarin Matanzas Nease Ponte Vedra St. Augustine District 6 DeLand Deltona Flagler Palm Coast Mainland New Smyrna Beach Seabreeze Spruce Creek University (Orange City) District 7 Apopka Lake Brantley Lake Mary Lyman Pine Ridge Seminole (Sanford) Wekiva Winter Springs District 8 Colonial East River Hagerty Lake Howell Oviedo Timber Creek University (Orlando) Winter Park Region 2 District 9 East Ridge Edgewater Evans Lake Minneola Ocoee South Lake West Orange Windermere District 10 Boone Celebration Cypress Creek Dr. Phillips Freedom (Orlando) Lake Nona Oak Ridge Olympia District 11 Gateway Haines City Harmony Liberty Osceola (Kissimmee) Poinciana Ridge Community St. Cloud District 12 Auburndale Bartow George Jenkins Kathleen Lake Gibson Lake Region Lakeland Winter Haven District 13 Freedom (Tampa) George Steinbrenner Land O Lakes Pasco Springstead Sunlake Wharton Wiregrass Ranch District 14 Alonso Clearwater Countryside East Lake Gaither Mitchell Palm Harbor University Sickles District 15 Blake Chamberlain Hillsborough Jefferson King Leto Plant Tampa Bay Tech District 16 Armwood Bloomingdale Brandon Durant Newsome Plant City Riverview (Riverview) Strawberry Crest Region 3 District 17 Boca Ciega Dixie Hollins Largo Northeast (St. Petersburg) Osceola (Seminole) Pinellas Park Seminole (Seminole) St. Petersburg District 18 Braden River East Bay Lakewood Ranch Lennard Manatee Palmetto Riverview (Sarasota) Sarasota District 19 Cape Coral Charlotte Fort Myers Ida Baker North Fort Myers North Port Port Charlotte Riverdale Venice District 20 Barron Collier East Lee County Estero Golden Gate Gulf Coast Lehigh Naples Palmetto Ridge South Fort Myers District 21 Bayside Eau Gallie Heritage Melbourne Sebastian River Sebring Vero Beach Viera District 22 Centennial Fort Pierce Central Jensen Beach Martin County Okeechobee Port St. Lucie South Fork Treasure Coast District 23 Dwyer Jupiter Palm Beach Central Palm Beach Gardens Palm Beach Lakes Royal Palm Beach Seminole Ridge Wellington District 24 Atlantic (Delray Beach) Boynton Beach Forest Hill John I. Leonard Lake Worth Park Vista Santaluces Region 4 District 25 Boca Raton Coral Springs Deerfield Beach Douglas Monarch Olympic Heights Spanish River West Boca Raton District 26 Blanche Ely Boyd Anderson Dillard Fort Lauderdale Northeast (Oakland Park) Piper Plantation Taravella District 27 Dr. Krop Hollywood Hills McArthur Nova South Broward South Plantation St. Thomas Aquinas District 28 American Cooper City Cypress Bay Everglades Flanagan Miramar West Broward Western District 29 Miami Miami Beach Miami Central Miami Norland Miami Springs Mourning North Miami North Miami Beach District 30 Doral Goleman Hialeah Hialeah Gardens Hialeah-Miami Lakes Mater Academy Reagan Westland Hialeah District 31 Belen Jesuit Braddock Columbus Coral Gables Miami Coral Park Miami Sunset South Miami Southwest Miami District 32 Coral Reef Ferguson Homestead Miami Killian Miami Palmetto Miami Southridge South Dade Varela

Class 5A (1345-1620) Region 1 Arnold Choctawhatchee Clay Eastside Ed White Menendez Orange Park Paxon Pensacola Ridgeview Stanton Wakulla Westside Region 2 Belleview Citrus Crystal River Fort Pierce Westwood Lake Wales Lake Weir Lecanto Leesburg Merritt Island Palm Bay Rockledge Titusville Weeki Wachee Region 3 Bayshore Dunedin Hardee Jesuit Middleton River Ridge Robinson Southeast Spoto Tarpon Springs Wesley Chapel Zephyrhills Region 4 American Heritage (Plantation) Archbishop McCarthy Coconut Creek Cypress Lake Dunbar Hallandale Immokalee Island Coast Lely Mariner Miami Carol City Miami Jackson Miami Northwestern Stranahan Suncoast

Class 4A (922-1344) Region 1 Baker County Bay Bishop Kenny Gadsden County Godby Raines Ribault Rickards Rutherford Suwannee West Florida West Nassau Wolfson Yulee Region 2 Astronaut Atlantic (Port Orange) Bishop Moore Cocoa Dunnellon Eustis Jones Mount Dora North Marion Palatka Santa Fe South Sumter Space Coast Tavares Region 3 Anclote Booker Central (Brooksville) Fivay Gibbs Gulf Hernando Hudson Lakewood Mulberry Nature Coast Ridgewood Tenoroc Region 4 Avon Park Cardinal Gibbons Clewiston Coral Springs Charter DeSoto County Glades Central Gulliver Prep Key West Keys Gate LaBelle Lemon Bay Pompano Beach Washington (Miami)

Class 3A (434-921) Region 1 Andrew Jackson Baldwin Episcopal Fernandina Beach Florida High Fort White Marianna Newberry North Bay Haven P. K. Yonge Pensacola Catholic South Walton Taylor County Walton Region 2 Bradford Cocoa Beach Father Lopez First Academy Interlachen Keystone Heights Lake Highland Prep Melbourne Central Catholic Taylor Trinity Catholic Trinity Prep Umatilla Villages Region 3 Berkeley Prep Bishop Verot Calvary Christian (Clearwater) Cardinal Mooney Cardinal Newman Clearwater Central Catholic Cypress Creek (Wesley Chapel) Gateway Charter Kings Academy Lake Placid Oasis Oxbridge Academy Tampa Catholic Region 4 American Heritage (Delray Beach) Calvary Christian (Fort Lauderdale) Chaminade-Madonna Everglades Prep Immaculata-LaSalle Miami Edison Monsignor Pace North Broward Prep NSU University School Pine Crest Pinecrest Prep St. Andrews St. John Paul II Westminster Christian

2A (Population 58-434) Region 1 Aucilla Christian Cedar Creek Christian Eagles View FAMU John Paul II Maclay Munroe North Florida Christian North Florida Educational Oak Hall Providence Rocky Bayou Christian St. Francis St. Joseph University Christian Region 2 Agape Cornerstone Charter Foundation Academy Halifax Holy Trinity Lakeland Christian Merritt Island Christian Seven Rivers Christian St. John Lutheran Trinity Christian (Deltona) Victory Christian Warner Christian Zephyrhills Christian Region 3 Admiral Farragut Cambridge Christian Carrollwood Community School Evangelical Christian First Baptist Indian Rocks Christian Keswick Christian Marco Island Academy Northside Christian Seffner Christian Southwest Florida Christian St. John Neumann St. Petersburg Catholic Region 4 Benjamin Champagnat Dade Christian Glades Day John Carroll Marathon Moore Haven Palm Glades Prep Palmer Trinity Somerset Charter (Silver Palms) Village Academy Westminster Academy

OK for the past several years, I have promoted the idea of promotion and relegation. I know that it will never happen. I have suggested an Open Classification with taking historically great teams (using Laz's Best Since 1999), take the top 64 and put them in a new classification and allow them to play. Again, I know it will go nowhere.So after looking at Georgia and Texas HS Classifications... I thought I would try my hand for FloridaFirst, we take a 5 year average of populations. 5 year averages allow for consistency in terms of numbers and don’t allow a random increase or decrease to affect whether you move up or down. Simple reason why, Jones High School (Orlando) jumped nearly 400 students from previous years and is double what they were in 2013.Second, Trenton moves back to 1A. None of the nearly 1A Rural schools (Fort White, Newberry, Taylor Pierson) have an average that is below 600.Third, Bolles and Trinity Christian (Jacksonville) stay in the bigger division with districts. Since that was their concern. If they don’t want to stay, we can move them back to the correct classification. Both would be in the new "3A"Fourth, Biggest 256 teams in 1 Classification divided into 32 districts with ~8 teams in each district. Top 3 teams make the playoffs. Of the 3 teams, the team with the biggest population goes into Division 1, next biggest to Divison 2, last in team size goes to Division 3. Teams are seeded by power points.Fifth, the remaining 215 are divided into 4 classifications of about 54 teams and subdivided into 4 regions. Power Points determines who makes the playoffs.Positives of the new system:No small classifications.and no small districtsFHSAA is happy as it keeps 8 classifications $$$In 6A, best teams do actually make the playoffs as they had to play 6 to 8 district games.In 1A to 5A, teams still get flexibility with their schedules.Negatives:I know there are some, but I will let others point them out.

I would have extended the points making a Category 1 win worth a lot more and a Category 4 loss a lot less. I don't like them equaling, would prefer to see a win matter more, especially if they are going to add bonus points for various things. My Suggestion: Category 1 Win: 65 points Loss: 35 points Category 2 Win: 50 points Loss: 30 points Category 3 Win: 40 points Loss: 20 points Category 4 Win: 35 points Loss: 5 points ------------------- I like the roster extension. I dislike they turned down leveling of classification sizes.

To answer about Bolles vs Trinity Christian http://jacksonville.com/sports/high-schools/2017-09-14/after-nearly-20-year-wait-bolles-and-trinity-ready-clash 1700 vs 2300... no, not much of a difference. If we really do the math, it is 587 difference, assuming half to be female, you are down to 293, if we assume 5% play football you are talking maybe a 15 person difference in roster size. I am not buying size in this case. It probably has more to do with Southeast not being competitive. I believe is was Jenkins, who turned Lakeland in about some transfers. When the FHSAA investigated and punished Lakeland, this is when our fantastic state legislature decided to meddle in high school athletics because if you look who led the charge it was people with connections to Lakeland. Lakeland and Vero both have the $$$ to bring teams to their stadiums, so they use that to their advantage to bring some Miami school who has no chance of winning to get some money. I am surprised they don't play Lake Gibson though.

In the lower classes, the removal of districts was supposed to bring back "rivalry" games, I actually never think the true rivalry games left, but the 2nd tier rivalry games vanished. I think the point system though damages rivalries as a whole. Let's use Columbia-Suwannee since Columbia Fan already brought up that rivalry. Columbia has beaten Suwanee 9 , 10, 11 years in a row? Suwanee has some decent seasons, but is mostly mediocre. Do you drop them to keep Bolles, Trinity Christian, or Madison County on the schedule? Probably not because both schools know the history, money involved, but Columbia has played Gainesville and Buchholz for a number of years, if the districts increase in size does CHS drop them instead? I think there is a way to allow neighborhood rivalries, districts, power points, and make every game count.

ColumbiaFan, Football, size of school matters more than any other sport. You need 22 guys at least, plus numerous subs, while there is diminishing rewards for being a huge school in football. Size still matters and Columbia has the size. In sports like Basketball, volleyball, baseball, softball, size of the school matters a lot less. The number of players needed to be successful is a lot less. As a result, a school like Suwannee can be more competitive with a school like Columbia. It isn't to say that size doesn't matter, but it has less of an effect.

Another area is North Central Florida (Ocala to the Gulf, North to Lake City to where ever you want to stop Tallahassee)... 1978-Dunnellon 1979-Dunnellon 1980-Gainesville 1981-Palatka 1982-Lafayette (Mayo) 1983-Palatka (runner-up) 1985-Bradford (runner-up) 1987-Suwannee 1988-Suwannee 1988-Williston (runner-up) 1989-Suwannee 1990-Buchholz 1990-Suwannee 1991-Santa Fe 1992-Newberry (runner-up) 1994-Santa Fe 1994-Vanguard (runner-up) 1994-Union County 1995-Union County 1996-Union County 1997-Chiefland 1997-Columbia (runner-up) 1997-Taylor County (Perry) 23 representatives in a 20 year period. 17 state championships, 6 runner-ups 1998-Madison County (runner-up) 1999-Suwannee (runner-up) 2001-Madison County 2003-Madison County (runner-up) 2004-Union County (runner-up) 2005-Trinity Catholic 2006-Trinity Catholic (runner-up) 2007-Madison County 2008-Newberry (runner-up) 2010-Trinity Catholic 2011-Madison County (runner-up) 2012-Trenton (runner-up) 2012-Gainesville (runner-up) 2012-Madison County (runner-up) 2013-Trenton 2014-Hamilton County (runner-up) 2015-Trenton 2017-Madison County 18 representatives in a 20 year period and 5 of them coming from the new 1A rural classification where half the teams are in the North Central Florida area. 7 state championships with 11 runner-ups and Madison County and Trinity Catholic having 5 of the state titles. Part of the biggest reasons why is the growth of Florida in weird and different ways. If you look at Orlando, Palm Beach, Broward, and Tampa these areas have large growth but the transients didn't join football in large numbers. As a result different attitudes relating to football, no history, no tradition, no joining of youth leagues, no coaching connections to the communities, because there isn't a community to connect to.

I know Wisconsin had at least one, it called back a 20+ pass play on a scramble... 3rd and 10? But not many penalties were called anyway on either team, 7 for the whole game. 2 of those Wisconsin OL are All-Americans so maybe they are just as talented?

OldSchoolLion is right, football is cracking the under the weight of it's own hubris and greed. While sports are designed to fun, build character, social events that allow students to showcase a different set of skills that are not always able to seen in a standard classroom. At some point, college athletic scholarships were designed for a poorer student who maybe had the mind, but not the $$$ to make it to college and not pay. Today, the scholarship becomes the goal to try and get to the NFL. The cost of football (and all sports) is absurd. New uniforms, new helmets, new pads, new cameras, Hudl, security, ticket takers, ushers, travel to the games, new weight rooms, more coaches. The real amateur level is not designed to support this type of cost. Add in the time commitment that some coaches demand from players in a year round way. Football season is over and then starts weightlifting season, 7 on 7 games every weekend, track season, spring football, and back to the grind of summer workouts again. Ask yourself if that was really the same commitment 30 years ago, or was football something fun you participated in. Even the serious kids of yesteryear wouldn't do some of the things that are required to do today. Ask yourself is it really worth the time and money that it takes to be successful? Could a student earn an academic scholarship with the same amount of time dedicated to the task of sports? Could a student work a minimum wage job and have as much money socked away by the end? With the continual push of "Scholarship or Bust" or "State Championship or Bust," students have the ability to read the tea leaves and as a 6"0 245 lb lineman the likelihood of earning a scholarship in football is not high. So as a community, we have set unrealistic expectations of the prize (Scholarship or State), we have set unrealistic expectations of what it takes to earn that prize (the amount of hours and $$$), and we are surprised when parents, students, and communities start turning off football? Finally, institutionally, football has failed to sell itself. There is an old joke , "What doe you call your Social Studies teacher?" The answer is "Coach." How many educational opportunities were ruined because a school had to hire a defensive line coach and the only teaching position was US History. The coach put on some history channel documentaries and that was the end of the class. High School coaches (all sports, but most publicly, football) did this to themselves by not holding their own coaches in to the highest standards. The community has soured on it. Classroom education comes first.

As I posted in another post, NJ has separated the schools for playoff purposes since 1974 and it has worked fine, but now they are separating them in terms of regular season for safety factor (teams of 60 completely dedicated players vs teams of 25 we are doing this because it is fun). I am product of 12 years of Catholic schools. I know the recruitment that happens both in terms of academics and athletics. I wasn't the athlete, but my friends were. I was the kid who actually was recruited to the Catholic school because of my Academic abilities. My friends (who did not receive a scholarship) were heavily recruited by the coach and his assistants. There was no doubt of that. I transferred schools to another state. Two of my fellow sophomore transfers were All-Area players in their respective sports (soccer and basketball) as freshmen. Talent like that just doesn't walk in the door randomly. I would also say that one of bi ----------------- As for playing the best team regardless of classification, I think there are limits on such things. Should Stanton or Paxon choose to play Bolles? Probably not. As Paxon and Stanton gain nothing. Yes, it is important to challenge one's team, but challenging them and setting them up for failure are 2 different things. A coaching for dummies book I once read talked about scheduling (non-football). They said in an ideal world a schedule should reflect the reality of your team. Let's assume you have an average team in terms of talent. They talked about the idea that you should schedule an "easy" game, a team where it is 50/50 in terms of winning, and a stretch game. A game where if you were to play perfectly the game might be close, but you would most likely lose. They suggested you do that for the whole season. As your team improves, what was an "easy" team gets dropped off the schedule to add a tougher team. Part of the idea of splitting private/public is that you want teams facing similar situations and resources/dedications as your school. It is one of the reasons, I advocate for a promotion/relegation system based on success. If your team is very successful than you move up a class. If your team is bad, than they move down a class. Does Bolles make it 8A probably not. Does Booker T Washington or Cocoa make it 8A maybe, but at the same point do teams like Jupiter, Varela, and Winter Springs stay in 8A? No, they move down so they are competitive. Competitive doesn't have to mean they are winning state championships, it just means that they are on the same talent/skill level as the teams playing. If you look at florida high schools sports in things like Volleyball and Soccer, the same teams dominate each year (Private or Public). Some of the small private schools could win large classification state championships. It is in these sports that we see the private school domination even more.