Hwy17
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Posts posted by Hwy17
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20 minutes ago, SportsFan said:
But the state under the current political leadership will never reverse that law so if it's clear the current law kills parity wouldn't it make sense to adjust how teams are classified to match the changing times?
Which is why I'm in favor of leaving the FHSAA and going independent or forming another association
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15 minutes ago, SportsFan said:
You do realize Central won their first state title in 2010
2 of those 3 teams had won titles before 2010 so I don't necessarily see what your trying to get to with that by excluding the one public school in the list
The difference now is under the current state law teams public or private are pulling from entire county so no rural team will ever compete with a school at that level again because they are pulling the top talent in a county of 2-3 million people
How exactly is a team like Baker County or Columbia or Suwannee supposed to realistically compete with those type of teams pulling from a county of 50k people
It's not realistic no matter how many ways we try and twist it or how many ways the FHSAA chooses to pretend to be braindead and not know what's going on
Point is you can see we had parity before the current law. Rural schools aren't scared to play schools from metro areas when there was a level playing field.
There's this myth that South Florida has always been the dominant area of the state when it comes to football. That's not exactly true. STA use to get to the championship but typically they'd lose. AHP use to never get past the first round, neither could Cardinal Gibbons. And other than 2004, I can't remember when Chaminade was all that. In fact the rise of these programs has been at the expense of other schools down there which are really struggling .
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6 hours ago, SportsFan said:
The type of teams who can only win state titles by loading up on transfers to face clearly inferior competition
Sure teams like Central STA AHP and Chaminade probably win titles regardless of who they gotta play but some those second tier metro teams know they can only win if they get some outmatched rural team in the title game
Prior to 2010 how many titles did STA, AHP or Chaminade win? Likewise how many titles were won by some of those rural teams?
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Here's an article from 2020. It seems to me that FHSAA is quick to throw the book at some schools while turning a blind eye to others.
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On 2/7/2024 at 2:37 PM, nolebull813 said:
What I’m trying to say is the metro/suburban split was supposed to give the suburban teams an easier path where they didn’t have to compete against those mean ole metro teams but Venice crushed the narrative.
I never have had a problem when there is a legitimate bona fide move.
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53 minutes ago, h8r said:
system,
i didnt think the metro suburban deal was that awful, who was in those seperated classes, thats a different story. if they would have truly used county population, maybe it would have worked better. I dont think coaches minded it to be honest. what if they would have used school district size instead of county population? how would that have changed things?
I do think the move up move down every cycle would be something intriguing for sure, be pretty awesome to see some teams that pad the record with "bum wins" get moved up to a tougher division and those who dont belong, get moved down. cut back to like 4 classes with 1 or 2 open division classes-
the district sceneiro of no scheduled games really made some sense, the district title championship weeks was pretty interesting and could have been something they could market for sure, however, teams all having a bye week 9 and then trying to find games weeks 10 and 11 would have been impossible for most. keeping the kids locked in for those 2 weeks would also have been impossible.
how would the rivalry weeks go? most teams play that week 11, what happens if team A is in dist title game, etc. so i can see why they squashed it.
something has to be done, nobody will agree with anyones plans, im not smart enough to come up with the actual plan and dont have nearly the time to make it work correctly.
Get rid of classification, districts, etc. Allow schools to play up to 12 regular season games, all games count so no more kick off classics. Make your schedule as difficult or easy as you want. Use a power ranking system based on SOS to rank all teams. The top 8 make the playoffs. Everyone else with 8 or more wins get a bowl game against a similarly ranked opponent.
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12 minutes ago, Dr. D said:
My bad. There were 484 teams after the "initial" FHSAA reclassification in December, and now there are 471 teams in the final reclassification. So a net loss of 13 teams. Not exactly a tidal wave of teams leaving the FHSAA, more of a trickle. So either schools are happy with the current situation, don't see a viable alternative, or just don't care. Doesn't seem like enough movement to gain the attention of the FHSAA.
Under the delusion that they don't have an alternative or school district won't let them seek an alternative
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1 hour ago, nolebull813 said:
We should have 2 state associations with the teams split.
one is for “FBS” type teams
one is for “FCS” type teams
we kinda have that now (FHSAA and SSAA) but not close to where it should be. The SSAA needs about 250 more teams and this would be perfect.
Many years ago high school football in Florida was similar to college football. A group of schools would form a conference and compete for a conference championship. At the end of the year we played bowl games.
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35 minutes ago, nolebull813 said:
It is a joke but the reason it’s a joke is because the amount of teams that went independent (which I love) still didn’t persuade these clowns to cut a classification and make sure there are no 2 and 3 team districts.
Any system that has 2 and 3 team districts is already dead on arrival. The FHSAA needs to dissolve
I saw yesterday that Frostproof is going independent and joining the SSAC. I wonder who will be next.
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1 hour ago, Manatee Magic said:
And they'll still get beat by Palmetto.
You are aware we beat them 20 years straight
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55 minutes ago, Perspective said:
All kidding aside (if that can even be described as "kidding"), here's the problem that high school coaches face: if their team has had a successful run, and then they have a "down year," there's a good chance all the good players who would otherwise be returning and/or beginning their high school career at that school will jump ship and transfer. One down year leads to two or three and next thing you know, you're one of the "have nots" and you're trying to rebuild your program all over again.
47 minutes ago, Dr. D said:And the coach is looking for a new job.
So the only other option is to schedule easy teams, produce a winning season but get killed in the playoffs.
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58 minutes ago, Perspective said:
I agree. Peacock doesn't.
Goes back before Peacock.
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Given all the millions Hardee gets from Mosaic they could be the next super team.
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On 1/6/2024 at 11:14 AM, h8r said:
there are alot of public schools in the atlantic portion.
Cocoa Beach 0 0 0 .000 - 0 Interlachen 0 0 0 .000 - 0 Paxon 0 0 0 .000 - 0 Stanton 0 0 0 .000 - 0 Space Coast 0 0 0 .000 - 0 Tradition Prep 0 0 0 .000 - 0 Lake Weir 0 0 0 .000 - 0 Sebastian River 0 0 0 .000 - 0 Bronson 0 0 0 .000 - 0 Bell High 0 0 0 .000 - 0 Coral Springs Charter I think sebastian river won this "state title" last year.
can clearly see why,
I can also see why some independent teams would benefit going to this.
as a large public high school, the aura of a state championship is way to alluring.
but lets be serious,,,, to win the "atlantic" state championship of the ssac is comical.
So how does SSAC determine their divisions or classifications?
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Hardee is looking for a head coach too.
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On 12/21/2023 at 8:32 PM, gatorman-uf said:
Southeast - Curt Bradley
Leading to a vacancy at Braden RiverHopefully he gets that program turned around
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1 hour ago, CoachGraham said:
1. They do.
2. Not anymore.
3. That is similar to what the SSAC does. Issue would be if you didn't follow the FHSAA rules then you wouldn't be eligible for postseason play, but some schools do it this way and are a part of the SSAC and the FHSAA. Although we probably would benefit from another/bigger association.
You beat me to it. But isn't SSAC all small private schools that didn't want to be part of the old class 2A? Would they allow publics to join ? I was suggesting 400+ schools going independent, play 10 games and maybe a bowl. Make Chaminades and STAs play each other.
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47 minutes ago, CoachGraham said:
I get that they aren't in the lowest 32, but yeah man I don't know how you can look at Fort White, Newberry, Williston, Union, Bozeman, etc. and expect them to compete in the same classification as Chaminade. Bozeman gave up 60 to Madison, and Chaminade would beat Madison just as bad as they beat Bozeman....Williston couldn't get past Hawthorne, who would also lose to Chaminade in spectacular fashion. It is very unfortunate for those fringe 1A/1R schools.
The only way this is ever going to get resolved is if 400+ schools announce that they are going independent at one time.
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14 hours ago, gatorman-uf said:
The FHSAA is dealing with a political system that they should never have to deal with and yes that is a major problem, but there is little we, as high school sports fans/coaches/administrators, can do. While the promotion relegation might see some teams yo-yo up and down, I don't think it would be as much as you think as it is based on 4 years of data and not just one good year.
As for good teams becoming bottom feeders in the next, no I would expect a good 2A team to be good in 3A immediately, they increased the level of their competition. At the same time, those same teams will have years where their coaches move on, a new school opens, and a couple of 3* kids graduate. So maybe that team that got promoted from 2A has gotten some stability as they move up to 3A, but there are still going to be a couple of teams struggling.
I don't know, I just understand why a Chaminade, STA, Venice, Lakeland would want to play in the easy class when they can play in the tough class. Why do they think that 80% of the teams they face in their classification don't want to play them. My problem with an open division playoff, is that occasionally you have a special team that is 2-3 years in the making. You knew it when you watched them that they were going to be good in a couple of years. Now, that teams goes 10-0 and is ready to compete for the first time for a state championship and gets put into the open division playoff despite never being "that" team. I would rather the "open" division be something that you earn over an extended period of time.That's why I wouldn't move the top team up more than just one class than what they would be otherwise. Nor would I move the bottom team down more than one class than they would have been otherwise. Too bad you and I aren't having this conversation in person as I can offer you some good examples for where I'm seeing this at.
For the life of me why can't FHSAA adopt a policy that says a transfer would only be allowed to play JV their first year, exception for a senior, would be viewed as unreasonable or violation of state law?
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All I can see as really occurring is that some really fine programs that aren't "elite" but having success in their current class becoming the new bottom feeders in a different class. So they move back down only to have those who replace them become the next group of bottom feeders. To be honest, the vast majority of schools are classified correctly, it's just a handful of offenders who have built their program around transfers who are controlling the system. FHSAA implementation a point system that was supposed to work. It didn't. Then we tried RPI. Then Metro/Suburban. Now they want to go back to traditional. All because of they are too afraid to implement a reasonable transfer policy for fear that the state legislature wouldn't like it.
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10 hours ago, gatorman-uf said:
Again in my hypothetical: 6 classes (plus Rural)
I already posted in the original post, what would be 6A and 5A
Your specific question is about Southeast (Bradenton). They would be in Class 2A (16 districts of 8 teams, well a couple of districts with less as there only 125 teams). So yes, there would be schools with 2K plus and schools with less than 500, but again it is based on playing ability, not school size. School size has continually shown to not matter as much.
Below is an alphabetical list of the teams, but first here are the teams closest to SoutheastAlonso High School
Boca Ciega (Gulfport)
Booker High School
Chamberlain High School
Countryside (Clearwater)
Gibbs (St. Pete)
Hardee (Wauchula)
Jefferson High School
Lakewood Ranch
Lemon Bay (Englewood)
Lennard (Ruskin)
Northside Christian
Osceola (Seminole)
Palm Harbor University
St. Petersburg
Sickles High School
Robinson High School
Seffner Christian Academy- Alonso (Tampa)
- American (Hialeah)
- American Heritage (Delray Beach)
- Andrew Jackson (Jacksonville)
- Archbishop Carroll (Miami)
- Atlantic (Port Orange)
- Atlantic Coast (Jacksonville)
- Avant Garde Academy (Hollywood)
- Bayside (Palm Bay)
- Boca Ciega (Gulfport)
- Booker (Sarasota)
- Booker T. Washington (Pensacola)
- Boynton Beach
- Central (Fort Pierce)
- Chamberlain (Tampa)
- Clay (Green Cove Springs)
- Coral Gables
- Countryside (Clearwater)
- Cypress Bay (Weston)
- Cypress Creek (Wesley Chapel)
- Deltona
- Dr. Krop (Miami)
- Dwyer (Palm Beach Gardens)
- East River (Orlando)
- Eastside (Gainesville)
- Englewood (Jacksonville)
- Episcopal School of Jacksonville (Jacksonville)
- Eustis
- Evangelical Christian (Fort Myers)
- Flanagan (Pembroke Pines)
- Forest (Ocala)
- Forest Hill (West Palm Beach)
- Fort Meade
- Fort Walton Beach
- Foundation Academy (Winter Garden)
- Frostproof
- Gainesville
- George Jenkins (Lakeland)
- Gibbs (St. Petersburg)
- Glades Central (Belle Glade)
- Golden Gate (Naples)
- Goleman (Miami)
- Haines City
- Hardee (Wauchula)
- Harmony
- Hernando (Brooksville)
- Hialeah
- Hudson
- Immokalee
- Jackson (Miami)
- Jefferson (Tampa)
- Jupiter
- Kathleen (Lakeland)
- Key West
- Lakewood Ranch (Bradenton)
- Land O' Lakes
- LaSalle (Miami)
- Lecanto
- Leesburg
- Lemon Bay (Englewood)
- Lennard (Ruskin)
- Leon (Tallahassee)
- Lyman (Longwood)
- Maclay (Tallahassee)
- Marianna
- Matanzas (Palm Coast)
- Menendez (St. Augustine)
- Miami
- Middleburg
- Moore Haven
- Munroe (Quincy)
- Nature Coast Tech (Brooksville)
- New Smyrna Beach
- North Florida Christian (Tallahassee)
- North Miami
- Northside Christian (St. Petersburg)
- Orange Park
- Osceola (Seminole)
- P.K. Yonge (Gainesville)
- Palatka
- Palm Beach Lakes (West Palm Beach)
- Palm Harbor University (Palm Harbor)
- Palmetto Ridge (Naples)
- Park Vista (Lake Worth)
- Pine Crest (Fort Lauderdale)
- Piper (Sunrise)
- Port St. Lucie
- Ribault (Jacksonville)
- Ridge Community (Davenport)
- River Ridge (New Port Richey)
- Riverdale (Fort Myers)
- Riverview
- Robinson (Tampa)
- Saint Andrew's (Boca Raton)
- Santaluces (Lantana)
- Seabreeze (Daytona Beach)
- Seffner Christian (Seffner)
- Seminole Ridge (Loxahatchee)
- Sickles (Tampa)
- Somerset Academy Silver Palms (Miami)
- South Fork (Stuart)
- South Fort Myers (Fort Myers)
- South Miami (Miami)
- South Walton (Santa Rosa Beach)
- Southeast (Bradenton)
- St. Brendan (Miami)
- St. Cloud
- St. John Paul II (Tallahassee)
- St. Petersburg
- Tate (Cantonment)
- Taylor County (Perry)
- The First Academy (Orlando)
- The Villages Charter (The Villages)
- Tocoi Creek (St. Augustine)
- Tohopekaliga (Kissimmee)
- True North Classical Academy (Miami)
- Wellington
- West Boca Raton (Boca Raton)
- West Broward (Pembroke Pines)
- West Nassau (Callahan)
- West Port (Ocala)
- Westside (Jacksonville)
- Westwood (Fort Pierce)
- Yulee
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Zephyrhills Christian Academy (Zephyrhills)
This is one of my concerns with the relegation system. I school with a larger population has an advantage over a smaller school. That's a fact that was determined years ago and why we had classes based on population. I don't know the situation going on at Southeast, whether it be poor coaching or kids leaving the program, but I'm sure they have way more talent walking the halls than say Moore Haven or Frostproof. Bartow for example is a larger school that was struggling and a coaching change turned around the program so that they are competitive now. They didn't have to drop a class to do it. And of course there is always the option of going independent or scheduling easier teams without dropping down. Most schools go through a cycle of bad year, decent year, good year, repeat. We just want a level playing field like existed for before. However the only way I see that happening would be 400+ schools to go independent all at once.
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7 hours ago, Floridaatlantic1 said:
Sure. Just take a picture of all the state champions in the metro division and a few of the suburban rosters. and see how many players came from other schools or were supposed to go to other schools. They all recruit. Illegal thus a form of cheating. In order to be an elite team in Florida, you must get elite talent and the only way is to break the rule and recruit. Or you can bury your head in the sand like an ostrich and say that does not in our state.
Around the state how often does one school get the majority of its transfers from one particular rival, and the downturn of the later coincide with the rise of the former?
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19 hours ago, gatorman-uf said:
That's essentially what I want to happen, but the problem with your place as a starting point is the a school like Chaminade-Madonna still is wrecking havoc in 3A instead of 2A and would take 3-4 more years to eventually get to the level that they should be at (assuming that you would allow a team to go to from 2A to 3A to 4A to etc). If not, all you really did is move the teams that most likely could beat a juggernaut 2A or 3A team out of the classification.
The other reason this system is imbalanced in terms of classification size is that the talent gap between 1-75 is too big vs the gap between say 320-448 (128 teams) is smaller because all of those teams struggle. Just to use my above classifications of a 1 vs 64 you are talking STA vs Dunbar (Ft Myers) vs if you shrink the gap it is STA vs Naples.
Your idea works if we didn't have years and years of data at our finger tips already, but we do and as such should use that data to make a better system.Do you have access to that data? I'd like to run a few different scenarios and see what it looks like. The old way of creating classes actually was to create 6 classes then cut the bottom 2 classes in half giving us a total of 8. I say create 7 full classes. Would Chaminade be 3a or 4a ? I don't know. One of my concerns is not so much as who's moving up as who would be moving down. Would a larger school like Bradenton Southeast that has been struggling in recent year get classified with schools half their size like Lake Placid or Labelle? Let's run the numbers and see.
Does the FHSAA punish cheaters?
in The Huddle
Posted
Also I think the biggest loosers are the bottom feeder programs in metro areas.