HornetFan
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Posts posted by HornetFan
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33 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:
Always a good thing to add a bit of levity to the discussion.
I'm enjoying this discussion. It sure beats talking about transfers in South Florida and Jax, I don't follow teams from those areas, and we can only devote so much ink to how good Madison County will be this year. It's only 6 1/2 weeks till we have HS football games once again, but who's counting?
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35 minutes ago, Perspective said:
Ray and Hornet,
I'm trying to find some middle ground here. Can the two of you at least agree that, regardless of their respective schedules and regardless of who the quarterbacks are, Winter Park and Dr. Phillips would both get blown out by Madison County?
Is that even a question? I'll defer to Jesse on that.
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4 minutes ago, DarterBlue2 said:
Just joshing you, man. No harm intended.
But the thread between you and Hornet had gotten kinda funny.
40 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:By implication you did say WP had a tough schedule. On 6/26 you told NoleBull "I am still waiting for you to name a few teams in Orlando with a stronger out of district schedule". I named you five in quick order and you dismissed them with possibly only Apopka. Now you're pretending the scheduler for DP is stupid and the one from WP smart because the first scheduled a tough schedule and the second schedule an easy one. Whoops, I meant a "smart" one. Ridiculous.
"I am still waiting for you to name a few teams in Orlando with a stronger out of district schedule" I named you five in quick order and you dismissed them with possibly only Apopka
44 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:Just a nutty old man. He makes a statement like WO is favored over us because we didn't look good in 7v7. So I ask him if that is the metric, what big 7v7 tournament has WO won? Crickets, but they have an unstoppable, unguardable 6'5" receiver. Ok, who did they beat? Still waiting for an answer. We lost our second game in that tournament to an excellent Dillard team in OT 12-6. Think for us that don't normally participate in these it was a pretty good showing.
Nothing was implied; it was an actual statement. WP's non-district opponents for this season had a combined record last year of 33-19-1. Considering that with rare exceptions, there is almost always a winner and a loser in every game, that's not a bad winning percentage; only one of their future non-district opponents had a losing record last year.
Now you're pretending the scheduler for DP is stupid and the one from WP smart
I'm not pretending; it was "stupid" to schedule DP's list of non-district opponents. I hope their players have the $10 admission necessary to attend playoff games this Fall. And yes, the WP schedule is a "smart" schedule; teams with winning records that you have a decent chance of beating. Just because you feel that you have some decent boxing skills doesn't warrant you scheduling 10 rounds with Mike Tyson. I expect that DP will be an early KO.
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31 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:
But based on your Spring Jamboree analysis, didn't WP get clocked by Apopka in one quarter and scored 0 points. You are still evading your proclamation earlier on how tough a schedule WP has and to point out others that are tougher. I thought I did that, but you disagreed based on zero facts. Now you are admitting it without admitting it.
based on your Spring Jamboree analysis, didn't WP get clocked by Apopka in one quarter and scored 0 points
I don't think WP got "clocked" by Apopka in the one quarter of varsity play. Apopka won the quarter 14-0, scoring from 15 yards out after a bad snap from center by WP that Apopka recovered on WP's first play from scrimmage. On the only other drive that WP had, they moved the ball from their 20 to the Apopka 15, but failed to score. Then, Apopka had a nice drive that consumed the rest of the quarter and resulted in a TD. Apopka won the quarter, but I don't think they "clocked" WP, unless you mean their one long 85 yard drive that consumed the clock for most of the varsity quarter. The two teams JV played the 2nd quarter to a scoreless draw.
You are still evading your proclamation earlier on how tough a schedule WP has and to point out others that are tougher
I never said WP had an overly "tough" schedule; I did say they have a good schedule and they don't control their district schedule, a district that does include Timber Creek (7-1 last season), and that their non-district schedule was sensible and challenging with Lake Mary (9-2 last season), Boone (6-4), Lake Brantley (5-4-1), Edgewater (7A state finalist last 2 years), Lake Nona (3-2), and Evans (2-4) as their non-district opponents for this season. I think that's a sensible and challenging schedule. They also play West Orange in the KOC. There are a few tougher non-district schedules in Central Florida, but WP's schedule has a good mix of challenging games outside their district.
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28 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:
Wow, another back handed diss at this kid. So sad you have to resort to childish pronouncements. The real question is how would WP fair against that list: Jones, Apopka, WO, Osceola, Cocoa probable losses. You seem to forget your crazy strength of schedule arguments from early and wander into other unrelated analogies that have nothing to do with the subject at hand.
Wow, another back handed diss at this kid.
It's not a diss on the kid. He's coming from Lyman, a team that won one game playing in 7A last season against a weak schedule; they were blown out in many games. He elected to transfer for his senior year to Dr Phillips, a team that probably has the toughest schedule in Central Florida this coming season. DP is also a team down on talent this coming season. They're going to need him to perform like Clark Kent's alternate identity if they want to finish with better than a .500 season. Their district opponents were out of their control; someone should have been realistic when they scheduled non-district opponents. The kid moved because he wanted to enhance his college recruitment opportunities; being blown out by more than half your opponents won't help. I wish him luck; he's going to need it, as talented as he may be.
The real question is how would WP fair against that list:
We'll probably never know unless WP makes the mistake of hiring the person who negotiated DP's ridiculous schedule. WP played one varsity quarter against DP in the Spring Jamboree and beat them 12-0. DP was very unimpressive while WP moved the ball down the field for TD's on their two possessions. Based upon that, I don't know if WP would do better with DP's schedule, but they probably wouldn't do worse.
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44 minutes ago, DarterBlue2 said:
I don't think they lose 6 games, but I could easily see 4 and possibly 5. DP has been tough for a long time, so I would not be surprised if they are a lot improved over the summer. However, their schedule is a tough one, as is their district. They have their work cut out for them this season.
For DP, I see @ Jones, Apopka, @ West Orange, @ Osceola, and Cocoa as probable losses, with @ Lake Mary and Timber Creek as potential losses. They have 4 games at home (won't be favored against Apopka or Cocoa), and 6 games away. I wouldn't want to play that schedule with the team I watched Apopka and Winter Park easily handle in the Spring Jamboree. The new DP transfer's name isn't Clark Kent, is it?
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2 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:
That has been my point all along, this kid seemed to be the main cog in the offense at Lyman so why would he transfer to DP to play the slot? His family picked up and moved into the DP zone to play for them, to give their son this opportunity. All this other nonsense about his height, or this or that made no sense looking at the facts that we do know. I guess we will know for sure once the season starts.
The true test will be facing strong Jones and Apopka teams in weeks 1 and 3. The level of competition he will face this season is far better than he faced at Lyman last year. With Osceola and West Orange in their district, I would be surprised if DP even sniffs the playoffs this season. I wish the kid well, but I think he picked the wrong destination. With his running ability, I think he would have been a better fit at Apopka if he had made the move in January or before Andrew McClain transferred there from Seminole.
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1 hour ago, Ray Icaza said:
Something has to give as the Sentinel reporter even stated that Patti would be more compatible in the slot and after 2 years on the job he really hasn't lived up to the coaches expectations. Would he just put that out there on his own or did he get inside information from the team?
The writer may have attended the Spring Jamboree and observed it with his own eyes. DP did not look good on either side of the ball in the Jamboree[ it wasn't just Patti. They have a difficult schedule. In their first 7 games, they will be favored over Celebration and possibly Timber Creek. DP can easily lose 5 or 6 games this season.
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31 minutes ago, Perspective said:
Measurables. n. The thing that lazy coaches can hide behind; a filter used by coaches of all sports.
All kidding aside, measurables don't make the player. But, if you're a college coach (of any sport) with a limited number of scholarships/roster sports available to you, who are you more likely to take a chance on -- the kid that checks off all the boxes, in terms of size and speed, or the kid who doesn't? Don't get me wrong; I love stories about kids who overcome their predetermined genetic shortcomings and eventually excel on the field or the court. But I also understand that it's awfully tough for a coach to look through hours and hours of recruiting tapes and film trying to find that diamond in the rough.
The Elite 11 QB competition has been reported in on-line articles this past week. I believe they started with over 20 QB's and whittle that down to 11 for their final rankings. Of the many kids that I saw mentioned in the articles, I don't think there was a single QB under 6'1". There has to be a good reason for that. OL's and DL's are now routinely 6'3" and above; short QB's have a difficult time seeing their receivers downfield over tall linemen; with rare exceptions, their offenses become one-dimensional.
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35 minutes ago, Perspective said:
Quick question: did Patti play in the Spring Jamboree? Chris Hayes' article mentioned that Patti also plays lacrosse, which is a spring sport. If DP had any success in lacrosse this year, their season may have run over into spring football, causing Patti to miss spring practices. Even if Patti played in the spring game, he may not have had much practice (and probably wasn't doing much 7 on 7 leading up to that game).
Patti played in the Spring Jamboree and with the exception of one good long pass, his other passes were mostly way off target. He was playing against two good defenses in Apopka and Winter Park, but appeared to struggle with most passes downfield. This was my first time seeing him; he looked like maybe 5'9" tall at most. He was least impressive of the 3 QB's that night.
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17 hours ago, Ray Icaza said:
Hornet Fan, that is the main thing I celebrate and understand you are also a veteran so just wanted to say I am grateful for your service.
Thanks, I always considered it a privilege to serve our country, even though I was drafted.
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48 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:
Hope all members of the forum get to celebrate the independence of the greatest country on earth with their families, friends, all those close to your heart. Football obviously is a great American pastime and your passion to support it and those that toil in that sport shows you are great patriots. Sports like football help mold leaders for our future and that is one of its great gifts. God Bless You All.
Have a great 4th of July. Enjoy the festivities and please remember those who sacrificed everything to make us the greatest country in the world.
- DarterBlue2, Perspective, Jullian and 1 other
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35 minutes ago, SportsNut25 said:
At one point - and who knows if was ever enforced - the FHSAA had it in the rules that if you didn't get it in by I think it was March 31 you got fined $50.
A whole $50????
You can see how well that would work.
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10 hours ago, Ray Icaza said:
Wrong again. Our school routinely plays backups for experience, reward them for their work, etc.. including the QB's. Last year Mascoe split time with Birchler, the Gators did it with Leak and Tebow, Tebow and Newton, Trask and Jones. They expect the same with Jones and Richardson. Secondly, you posted the Sentinel article which I told you I had read. In the article it clearly states his family moved into the DP zone. All legal and by the book. I am against illegal recruiting, have stated that position on this forum several times. Don't know what your fixation is on this particular transfer that you keep putting the one kid down and defending the other one's right to keep his job. I am not their coach, don't know much about either player, not rooting for one over the other, but I do know it is the coaches decision on who will start. And as I stated before, Coach Wells will probably start the one that gives him the best chance to win. May the best man win. Remember, I am an old timer so I believe in meritocracy regardless of race, religion, family affiliaton or any other reason.
I'm not fixated on the kid, nor did I introduce his transfer into the conversation. I saw the article in the Orlando Sentinel and posted it forward because it dealt with this discussion. I have no rooting interest in Dr Phillips football, but I do follow HS football in the Orlando area. I do have a strong opinion on recruiting and trying to maintain integrity in athletics, particularly in HS and youth sports. For many kids playing sports, the coach may be the only male role model they interface with on a consistent basis. I think most coaches do a great job of filling that missing piece in the kids' lives. I don't think it's good when a few coaches demonstrate through their actions that the rules are meant to be bent or disregarded; that trait I think I developed from my time in the military many decades ago.
Remember, I am an old timer so I believe in meritocracy regardless of race, religion, family affiliaton or any other reason.
I too am an old timer enjoying my retirement years. A big part of that enjoyment is playing golf and watching football, especially HS football games. I too believe that in life merit is extremely important, but it's not everything. Transitioning through HS is a total learning experience and it goes far beyond "winning" because there can only be one winner in any event; everyone else shouldn't be meant to feel that they're a loser. Coaches at the HS level are educators and that goes far beyond just teaching a kid how to play football. The kid probably won't be a football player all his life, but hopefully he'll have integrity and be honest and fair as he goes through life.
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3 hours ago, Ray Icaza said:
For the sake of argument, how many other players have transferred in at DP year after year and taken someone else's spot. Countless, they want to win that's their goal and if one of the transferee's is a receiver that will help Patti is he gonna squawk. I doubt it so get off the righteousness argument and understand that things don't always go your way.
QB is the most unique position in football and perhaps in all of sports. Rarely do you platoon your QB's; there's a starter and for the most part, the other QB's ride the pines. RB's, WR's, and other positions can expect playing time even if they're not the starter. I'm not trying to be righteous; but unless his local high school is academically deficient, I believe a kid should attend the high school where his parents or legal guardians actually reside full time and pay taxes.
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46 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:
I didn't say winning at any cost, but if winning isn't the goal why keep score?
Neither of us said "winning at any cost". I don't dispute that the goal is to win, and yes, that's why we keep score to determine which team wins.
You said: "The tenure Patti has means something, but it doesn't trump winning."
What is most important is are there limits to what you will do to win? Will a coach cross the line to gain an advantage when they understand that to do so either (1) violates rules they have agreed to uphold, and/or (2) violates a trust that the kids on the team have with the coach and the team. When do you sacrifice your integrity for the sake of winning? I think we entrust our coaches to teach our kids that there are a lot of things that are more important in sports than winning. I think we're losing that in HS football.
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46 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:
My guess is that Rodney Wells wants to win. The tenure Patti has means something, but it doesn't trump winning.
Rodney Wells is a good coach and I'm sure he wants to win, but will he chance upsetting team chemistry going forward? It appears he will because I doubt the kid would transfer without first talking to Wells. One would think he was, at the very least, promised a shot at the starting position.
"The tenure Patti has means something, but it doesn't trump winning."
Think about what you said there, and what kind of message does that send to Patti, his teammates, especially to his close friends on the team, and other kids contemplating playing a team sport in HS. It's not about playing football in HS; it's about winning, and if a better player comes along, you're out, regardless of what you've given for your team and your school over the past three years. This kid makes it clear in the interview that it's about him and what the transfer can do for his recruitment. Something doesn't seem right; if DP had a vacant spot at QB, I could see it, but somehow this appears to have more to it, at least to me, I keep thinking that "R" word, especially after seeing DP in the Spring Jamboree..
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45 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:
Alot depends on chemistry emphasizing TEAM! We had a dynamic kid playing QB a couple years back named Davon Wells, but he really wasn't a QB. Going into his senior year we were expecting to get Chad Mascoe to move back home, but Chad chose instead to give IMG a try (sophomore year). Our QB was excited about moving to the slot as he would have been terrific in space because he knew it would help us be better. That never materialized so Davon finish his career as our signal caller.
The big difference is that your QB at the time, Wells, actually embraced moving over if Mascoe moved back. Patti's cousin, Nick, made a name for himself at DP as a QB about 10 years ago and then went on to Boise State. Joe Joe Patti is going into his 4th year at DP and sees himself as a QB. It's kind of late now to start looking for a spot, but would he try and move to another school for his senior year? A similar thing happened at Seminole HS this year. Timmy McClain, their stud QB, graduated and moved on to USF It was assumed that his brother Andrew would move into the QB slot, but Luke Rucker, the rising junior Oviedo QB, saw an opportunity to QB the defending 8A state champs and he transferred to Seminole. Andrew McClain, in turn, transferred to Apopka for his senior year. Seminole has a talented young QB entering the 10th grade who could possibly challenge Rucker for the starting position this season. It's going to be real interesting to see how some of these moves work out in the Fall season.
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24 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:
Yeah, read that article a few days back. That's the only way I knew as I don't participate on facebook, twitter, instagram or other social media platforms where lot of you get info right from the kids.
Looks like one of the 2 QB's may end up at slot receiver. Both appear to have good running skills; hopefully the one who is forced to switch has good hands as a receiver. The big unknown is how Patti reacts to the new threat to his QB position, and does that carry over to other players if Argroves wins the QB position. And, how such a change effects team morale if they lose early to Jones, Timber Creek, and/or Apopka, all who are capable of hanging an "L" on DP? They play in a tough district; the last thing they need is dissension on the team and losing early can bring a team down.
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Interesting and timely article for this discussion in today's Orlando Sentinel about Curtis Argroves and his transfer from Lyman to DP:
HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL
Argroves transfers to Dr. Phillips for senior seasonQuarterback Curtis Argroves has transferred from Longwood Lyman High to Orlando Dr. Phillips for his senior season. Argroves worked out June 6 at FSU’s Mega Camp in Tallahassee.
By Chris Hays Orlando SentinelDr. Phillips may have found the answer to its quarterback dilemma and Curtis Argroves II has found a final destination for his high school football and baseball career.
Argroves, a dual-threat quarterback who nearly pulled off the 1,000-yard double last year by passing for 1,482 yards and rushing for 931 yards at Lyman High of Longwood, has transferred to Dr. Phillips. The 5-foot-10, 195-pounder threw 10 touchdowns, but his numbers were hampered by nine interceptions. As a runner, however, he made things happen when plays broke down and scored 11 times on the ground.
Argroves, also a standout baseball catcher who plays for the Orlando Scorpions travel team, is excited about the move. He’s hoping to turn to winning this season after three sub-par years at Lyman during which the Greyhounds won just nine games. Lyman was 2-8, 2-7 and 5-5 in those seasons.“There is a little opening at Dr. Phillips and hopefully I can take advantage of it,” said Argroves, whose family moved into the DP zone. “I just don’t want my senior year to be the same as it was my last three years. Just trying to change something and get something started.
“I’m really excited. It’s probably the most excited I’ve been for something like this in a sport in quite a while.”
In his career at Lyman, he was the Greyhounds’ starter in each of the past three seasons, throwing for 3,604 yards and 33 touchdowns. He ran for 2,247 yards and 24 TDs. He did pull off the double 1,000-yard season as a sophomore with 1,100 yards passing and 1,126 yards rushing. He’s accounted for 57 career touchdowns.A perennial football powerhouse, Dr. Phillips was searching for a current roster player to step up and take solid control of the offense and the QB position. Senior quarterback Joe Joe Patti, who is also a lacrosse standout, struggled a bit in the quarterback role the past two seasons and will likely switch to slot receiver. DP also has a freshman quarterback in Stanley Anderson.
Dr. Phillips has one of the most difficult schedules of all Central Florida teams, opening against state Class 6A runner-up Lake Minneola and following that with a game at 2019 state Class 5A runner-up Orlando Jones, which lost just one game a year ago. The Panthers also have games against last season’s Class 8A runner-up Kissimmee Osceola, Orlando Timber Creek, Winter Garden West Orange, Apopka, Lake Mary and Class 4A powerhouse Cocoa.
Argroves has spent some of this summer at various football camps when in the past he was focused on his baseball travel squad. He was at camps at Kennesaw State, Georgia Tech, USF, Florida and FSU.
As for college, Argroves would love to play both sports.“I’m trying to do both, but at this point it might be whatever comes first because I don’t have offers for both,” he said. “Whatever gives me more of a chance, then I’m gonna take it.”
He’s an exciting quarterback to watch and he has a big arm, but if plays break down, he’s not afraid to make something happen.“I would say my play-making [is best]. If something goes wrong, I have the ability to maneuver and do other stuff rather than just sit there and take a sack or let a play just fail. I have the ability to make other stuff happen,” Argroves said. “There was nothing bad about Lyman. DP is just a little bit better opportunity, as far as recruiting, just because of how well-known DP is.”
He’s certainly taking his senior season serious. Argroves had gotten a bit chunky, standing 5-foot-10 and weighing in at 225 pounds at his peak during the past year, but now he’s down to a svelte 195 and he’s ready to make things happen.
“I feel more agile and quick on my feet now,” Argroves said. “There is a lot of talent at DP so I’m excited to see what happens.”
Chris Hays can be reached by email at chays@orlan dosentinel.com.
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7 minutes ago, Ray Icaza said:
Could be, looking at his highlights it appears Lyman rode him on offense; lots of designed QB runs which other teams could prepare for. It indicates they didn't have enough other skilled players to help him yet he still gained 1000 yards rushing. Put the Patti kid in that role and what would that look like. I don't know much about the politics involved with personnel, but it seems like someone wouldn't transfer as the starter/leader of a team to sit. That is why I asked earlier about the Toho kid going to Edgewater. He can transfer several places and start. Why would you transfer to sit.
I don't know much about the politics involved with personnel, but it seems like someone wouldn't transfer as the starter/leader of a team to sit.
From watching his videos on Hudl, it's very apparent that the kid needed a ticket out of Lyman. It had to be frustrating for a talented kid to play on a one win team with not much hope of improvement in his senior year. I don't think e picked the best destination for himself, but it's possible that his family moved to Dr Phillips school zone and they want him there for his senior year. Some kids actually make moves for a better academic situation.
I don't know much about the politics involved with personnel, but it seems like someone wouldn't transfer as the starter/leader of a team to sit.
The Toho kid going to Edgewater is a different situation. Edgewater graduated their senior QB and had only an undersized freshman on their roster for the coming season. It was almost a guarantee that some experienced kid was going to jump on the Edgewater opening. That isn't the case at DP; they have a returning senior starting QB, and their other QB, who is a good QB, transferred to Lake Nona to compete for that starting position.
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1 hour ago, ColumbiaHighFan2017class said:
Colleges can afford to be picky because they are choosing kids from around the country looking for the right fit for their system
But height really doesn't make much difference at high school level because most defenders lack the technique they get at the college level because of coaching not being as strong
Sure you have some well coached programs but considering it's still possible to dominate in high school by throwing an athlete who can run at QB without even knowing proper technique it's believable that you can get away with it in high school if the kid is athletic enough
But height really doesn't make much difference at high school level because most defenders lack the technique they get at the college level because of coaching not being as strong
The better defensive teams can make a QB that relies on his running game one dimensional, and if so, they can usually shut down the offense. A QB that is proficient at throwing the ball down the field has a better chance at spreading a defense and enhancing his team's running game. Taller QB's have a better view of the whole field. A well coached HS defense with good talent will normally shut down a one dimensional offense. If he can't see his receivers downfield, you can shut down a talented running QB.
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1 hour ago, Ray Icaza said:
I used the example of a Johnny Manziel because Mac Brown obviously decided on a QB with these measurables, athletic, 6'4" 225, big arm, etc. Who was that he took instead of Manziel? I don't know and probably no one else does either because he didn't make the impact in college football that Johnny did. When we see what he does on a football field it makes you wonder, what was he missing. Kid makes plays.
When we see what he does on a football field it makes you wonder, what was he missing. Kid makes plays.
If we're talking Manziel, the thing he was missing was between his ears; he lacked common sense and discipline, and his career paid the price.
As for Curtis Argroves, the transfer from Lyman, his skills may be better than Patti's, but Joe Joe Patti is a senior and he's been at DP throughout HS. The Patti name at DP goes back to his cousin Nick's years at QB for DP. I think Argroves will have to be a lot better than Patti to earn the starting QB position. I still think he looks like a good candidate for a slot receiver.
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2021 Transfer Thread
in The Huddle
Posted
And to top it off, claim he is not dissing on the kid but ridicule any chance of success because he is transferring from LYMAN
I actually give him a lot of credit for leaving Lyman, but he should have done it sooner, and if it was strictly for football exposure, he had better options than DP.